Is our free choice real

[BobCatholic]

You say suffering is optional to go to hell.

Yes. Suffering on earth is optional to go to hell. Look at the Rich man and Lazarus story for example. What about those who have it all here on earth? Rich people have it all and never suffer. God throws them into hell.

Suffering in hell is not optional it is a fact.

I agree, I never denied this.

The reason is you meet God face to face, and refuse to accept him because you refuse to repent. The suffering is meeting God face to face but having everlasting death knowing what everlasting life could be with him. THe suffering is NOT having him.

When one meets God face to face, there is no chance to repent, the time for repenting expired by that time. If one is in the state of grace, they have that chance to repent and do.

As I said, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell, and horrifically difficult to go to heaven. The scales are out of balance.

 

[rinnie]

Yes. Suffering on earth is optional to go to hell. Look at the Rich man and Lazarus story for example. What about those who have it all here on earth? Rich people have it all and never suffer. God throws them into hell.

I agree, I never denied this.

When one meets God face to face, there is no chance to repent, the time for repenting expired by that time. If one is in the state of grace, they have that chance to repent and do.

As I said, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell, and horrifically difficult to go to heaven. The scales are out of balance.

Well to begin with I disagree with you that rich people have it all here on earth. I know many people who have money and are truly good people and sometimes have more problems then poor people.

And maybe I said it wrong, but a person who meets God face to face and refuses to repent will do it here in this world, and when they meet God same thing. What I was saying that even when they see God face to face it is their sin that kept them away, and even then their sin overpowers their love for sin. But that is their suffering they see the perfect world they could have with God, but their lust for self and sin still overpowers that. That is why it is great suffering because its such a struggle with ones self.

As God told the rich man if he did not listen in this world they will not listen in the next either. It is their love of money that overpowers their Love of God. But as I said I do not see that in all rich people, and no one has the perfect life in this world because the perfect life in living face to face with God.

 

[rinnie]

Yes. Suffering on earth is optional to go to hell. Look at the Rich man and Lazarus story for example. What about those who have it all here on earth? Rich people have it all and never suffer. God throws them into hell.

I agree, I never denied this.

When one meets God face to face, there is no chance to repent, the time for repenting expired by that time. If one is in the state of grace, they have that chance to repent and do.

As I said, it is ridiculously easy to go to hell, and horrifically difficult to go to heaven. The scales are out of balance.

Also if the scales are out of balance, its because of our choices. Just a quick story. There was a rich man and a poor man worked for him. He asked the poor man why he needed the Job, he said he wanted to buy his child shoes. The rich man cried. The poor man said why are your crying its okay she can make due with her old ones for now. The rich man said that is not why I am crying, my daughter is crippled and will never need shoes, she cannot walk nor ever will. Rich people got their problems also. We all do.

 

[BobCatholic]

Well to begin with I disagree with you that rich people have it all here on earth. I know many people who have money and are truly good people and sometimes have more problems then poor people.

Their cross is different but they have more resources to carry it. Thus, they don’t suffer.

And maybe I said it wrong, but a person who meets God face to face and refuses to repent will do it here in this world,

I never was able to get close to God so I could reject him. Every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed. God has rejected me.

 

[BobCatholic]

Also if the scales are out of balance, its because of our choices.

Nope.

I didn’t make it horrendously difficult to get to heaven - God set the rules. I didn’t.
I didn’t make it ridiculously easy to go to hell. God created me imperfect. Thus I fail, and it is ridiculously easy to do so. I ask God to take away my imperfections, he refuses so who’s responsible now? Oh yeah, only me, not him for refusing.

God made the scales out of balance. This is 100% on him.

Just a quick story. There was a rich man and a poor man worked for him. He asked the poor man why he needed the Job, he said he wanted to buy his child shoes. The rich man cried. The poor man said why are your crying its okay she can make due with her old ones for now. The rich man said that is not why I am crying, my daughter is crippled and will never need shoes, she cannot walk nor ever will. Rich people got their problems also. We all do.

Rich people have their problems but they have more resources to carry that cross with.

I don’t.

Thus they don’t suffer.

 

[rinnie]

Their cross is different but they have more resources to carry it. Thus, they don’t suffer.

I never was able to get close to God so I could reject him. Every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed. God has rejected me.

Okay first of all a person has money and one child, that child gets stuck on drugs, and od’s he is gone. You are going to tell me money took away that cross?

Second Bob everyone has felt the way you have one time or another. And people has such a wrong understanding of a Christian. They think because we go to Church, pray, and believe in God our life is golden. Its just not true. We all suffer and feel sometimes God has abandoned us, but as we go to Church and continue to pray for Grace, God has a way of revealing himself to only us, in his own time and ways.

I can only tell you one thing that I know and can put my life on. God loves you. I will pray for you that you can keep making those attempts and one day feel his grace.

 

[rinnie]

Nope.

I didn’t make it horrendously difficult to get to heaven - God set the rules. I didn’t.
I didn’t make it ridiculously easy to go to hell. God created me imperfect. Thus I fail, and it is ridiculously easy to do so. I ask God to take away my imperfections, he refuses so who’s responsible now? Oh yeah, only me, not him for refusing.

God made the scales out of balance. This is 100% on him.

Rich people have their problems but they have more resources to carry that cross with.

I don’t.

Thus they don’t suffer.

Yes God set the rules, and man committed the sin. Thats not the fault of God. People think that if they sin God hates them and punishes. If they only know when they sin they hurt God so bad, not by disobeying him, but by hurting themselves with their sins when they suffer. If you have kids you can understand this, how when they do wrong and it comes back to bite them, how it hurts you so bad.

Money is the God of many people, I agree with you on that, but they will never have the peace of the person who love God and others.

I will share this with you, something my Dad told me. People who have money and are evil, and I agree there are some, and its seems the more evil they do the more they get, I get this, My Dad said do not hate them, Pity them, This is their world. We will have the next and it is everlasting.

But there are honest people with money who worked hard, and deserve every penny of it, and are good God loving people.

 

[Bookcat]

Is our free choice real?

No it is not - I made you post here.

 

[BobCatholic]

Okay first of all a person has money and one child, that child gets stuck on drugs, and od’s he is gone. You are going to tell me money took away that cross?

The rich person had the money to put that kid in rehab. He chose not to. That’s why the kid died. He had the ability to stop the death. He chose not to.

I can only tell you one thing that I know and can put my life on. God loves you. I will pray for you that you can keep making those attempts and one day feel his grace.

God loves me in a way I cannot recognize as love, unfortunately. Right now I know God has rejected me and does not want me. Every day I wake up, I see that as another chance that maybe he’ll change his mind. Maybe today he’ll want me. Maybe he’ll change his will and actually want me.

 

[BobCatholic]

Yes God set the rules, and man committed the sin. Thats not the fault of God.

God creates people imperfect, and those imperfections lead people to sin.

God is not responsible for anything, and that’s the problem. He has all the power but no responsibility.

We will have the next and it is everlasting.

I wish that were true for me. As long as God doesn’t want me, game over.

But there are honest people with money who worked hard, and deserve every penny of it, and are good God loving people.

True.

 

[rinnie]

God creates people imperfect, and those imperfections lead people to sin.

God is not responsible for anything, and that’s the problem. He has all the power but no responsibility.

I wish that were true for me. As long as God doesn’t want me, game over.

True.

Hold on there what about Adam and Eve, he made them perfect and they sinned. God Told them do not eat from that tree, but they wanted to be gods themselves and disobeyed.

And yes we were stained with original sin. But God came down himself and died for all of the sins we commit. Baptism removes all of the original sin.

Now the ball is in our park, we choose to sin or not to sin. God gave us free will.

God does not make this world hard, its our sin that makes it hell on earth.

And trust me God wants you more then you will ever know. He created you, you are his own. Trust him a little and understand there is not one thing in the world that you can do, that God will not forgive you for. You just have to ask. The only thing you can do is not believe in him and reject his love. I wish I could reach out to you some how to let you know how precious you are to him. The love he has for you, you cannot ever comprehend the extend of it. It is nothing like human Love, Human love is (name removed by moderator)erfect, holding grudges, etc. God holds no grudges, he loves you unconditionally.

 

[BobCatholic]

Hold on there what about Adam and Eve, he made them perfect and they sinned.

No way they were created perfect. No way.

They had one or more of the following imperfections.

Pride “I know better than God”

Naivete - they believed the snake without thinking.

Stupidity - it was stupid what they did

fear - maybe the snake was 50 feet tall and intimidating

But God came down himself and died for all of the sins we commit. Baptism removes all of the original sin.

But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. God held back.

And trust me God wants you more then you will ever know.

Well, I don’t know.

Every attempt I did to get closer to God has failed.

. Trust him a little and understand there is not one thing in the world that you can do, that God will not forgive you for.

God has not forgiven the punishment of Adam and Eve that I’m temporally held responsible for.

If he did, please tell me when is the next flight to the Garden of Eden.

You just have to ask.

I ask for stable employment, he says no.
I ask to heal my son, he says no.
I ask for healing our infertility, he says no.
I ask for the ability to adopt, he says no.
I ask for the ability for my son to connect with me, he says no.

God routinely says no.

The only thing you can do is not believe in him and reject his love.

I believe in him, I cannot understand his love, I can’t recognize it as love.

precious you are to him.

If I were precious, he would not be saying no to things I need. He wouldn’t remain silent. He would take me home right now, beam me up, and I could be with him.

No. He does not want me, pushes me away.

Life is not a gift, it is a responsibility.

God holds no grudges, he loves you unconditionally.

If God loves me unconditionally, why does he put conditions?

Not allowed to have a self, we must give up the self. The self is evil.
Not allowed to have money. We must be taking a vow of poverty.
We must be religious, or clergy. Laypeople are second class citizens in the kingdom of heaven.
We must suffer, no exceptions. (except for some lucky people who are not me, who God shows mercy on.).

 

[rinnie]

Well, the point I am making is that the sin is avoidable once you have enough grace otherwise we eventually forfeit because of Satan temptation and inner interest.

And my point is when you are in a position when you know temptation is so strong all you can do is pray. And if you continue to pray to God instead of giving into your selfish wants you can overcome the sin.

GRACE isn’t some magic pill that you get that trumps sin, grace is continued pray over continue temptation throughout your life. My point is you never have enough grace. It is a constant praying throughout your life.

 

[rinnie]

No way they were created perfect. No way.

They had one or more of the following imperfections.

Pride “I know better than God”

Naivete - they believed the snake without thinking.

Stupidity - it was stupid what they did

fear - maybe the snake was 50 feet tall and intimidating

But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. God held back.

Well, I don’t know.

Every attempt I did to get closer to God has failed.

God has not forgiven the punishment of Adam and Eve that I’m temporally held responsible for.

If he did, please tell me when is the next flight to the Garden of Eden.

I ask for stable employment, he says no.
I ask to heal my son, he says no.
I ask for healing our infertility, he says no.
I ask for the ability to adopt, he says no.
I ask for the ability for my son to connect with me, he says no.

God routinely says no.

I believe in him, I cannot understand his love, I can’t recognize it as love.

If I were precious, he would not be saying no to things I need. He wouldn’t remain silent. He would take me home right now, beam me up, and I could be with him.

No. He does not want me, pushes me away.

Life is not a gift, it is a responsibility.

If God loves me unconditionally, why does he put conditions?

Not allowed to have a self, we must give up the self. The self is evil.
Not allowed to have money. We must be taking a vow of poverty.
We must be religious, or clergy. Laypeople are second class citizens in the kingdom of heaven.
We must suffer, no exceptions. (except for some lucky people who are not me, who God shows mercy on.).

OKAY to begin with Adam and Eve were made perfect. To be perfect is to be without sin, which is what they were. They were thrown out of the garden when they became in a state of sin by disobeying God. Up until then they were in a state of grace. God freed us from Original Sin by baptism. That is why he the the new Adam obeyed God and Mary the new Eve Obeyed God. We have the stain of OS on us, but Christ died and freed us of OS and all of our other sin by giving us the Church and confession.

 

[rinnie]

No way they were created perfect. No way.

They had one or more of the following imperfections.

Pride “I know better than God”

Naivete - they believed the snake without thinking.

Stupidity - it was stupid what they did

fear - maybe the snake was 50 feet tall and intimidating

But we are still held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. God held back.

Well, I don’t know.

Every attempt I did to get closer to God has failed.

God has not forgiven the punishment of Adam and Eve that I’m temporally held responsible for.

If he did, please tell me when is the next flight to the Garden of Eden.

I ask for stable employment, he says no.
I ask to heal my son, he says no.
I ask for healing our infertility, he says no.
I ask for the ability to adopt, he says no.
I ask for the ability for my son to connect with me, he says no.

God routinely says no.

I believe in him, I cannot understand his love, I can’t recognize it as love.

If I were precious, he would not be saying no to things I need. He wouldn’t remain silent. He would take me home right now, beam me up, and I could be with him.

No. He does not want me, pushes me away.

Life is not a gift, it is a responsibility.

If God loves me unconditionally, why does he put conditions?

Not allowed to have a self, we must give up the self. The self is evil.
Not allowed to have money. We must be taking a vow of poverty.
We must be religious, or clergy. Laypeople are second class citizens in the kingdom of heaven.
We must suffer, no exceptions. (except for some lucky people who are not me, who God shows mercy on.).

I understand you have crosses truly I do, we all do.

My husband got struck with cancer and I had 2 small Children at the time. I felt the devil all around me ever single day of his kemo. I felt like God left me too. But my husband got well, and its been over 25 years. I thought see if you love God he makes good things out of bad.

Then about 5 years later my brother got a brain tumor. we were thick, he was 2 years younger my baby brother. He died before he even made it to 40. Then the next week my Aunt died. Then a few month later I found out I was pregnant, I lost the baby, then my Father in Law died. Then it seemed like when we were just beginning to live I lost my Dad. I know, you feel like GOd is picking on you, and when you get on your feet or think you are all hell breaks loose again.

We tried to get ahead a flip a house for the last 5 years, so far it has not worked out like we planned. I was worried how we would get through this winter.

Did not have to worry about that. In Sept my husband and I wrecked on a Motorcycle hit a deer head on. You don’t want to know our med ded. Our policy for the bike was 2000 for us both. Since Sept I have had a broken arm, leg, complete hysterectomy, gall blader surgery, and carpal tunnel on both hands. My husband broken ribs, and his shoulders shot.

I get it. we both are back to work and doing what we can. We will be okay. God will see us through. He always does. I don’t have all the answers none of us do. But I know he loves us and will never leave us. He lives in this house. We make due. We will make it.

By the way back to adam and eve the next garden is in heaven forever. That is will my good life will be. My Dad said when thing’s like this happen rejoice, we are the chosen people.

Probally between us because if we do and I pray we will and believe we will make it to heaven we will be fine, just to have peace. And I will hold my Papa again, and my Brother, and my Baby. Its hard but life is hard.

Remember what Papa always told me before he died, Jesus was perfect and they crucified him, what do you think they will do to you. Hang in there buddy, We both will

 

[rinnie]

Then BobC, look at the Blessed Mother she was sinless and the hand held to her. If God can make a good out of what happened to Jesus, we are a walk in the park.

Remember when you are faithful to God. God will be faithful to you.

Everyone else leave God alone he is busy with Bob and I. Just kidding. God want us all to come to him with our problems. He can handle them all.

Trust me Bob we are all train wrecks.

And Bob God does not what you to give up yourself. He wants good things for you and they are comming I promise you that. Just give up yourself if it is sin you want because you will only destroy yourself with it.

And we are both here maybe we are the new Jobs in town. If we could only have the patience of Job or faith. Hey its not over till it over. I pray we can both become a great example for our faith. But yeah its hard, REAL HARD. But thats okay it really is.

 

[BobCatholic]

OKAY to begin with Adam and Eve were made perfect. To be perfect is to be without sin, which is what they were. They were thrown out of the garden when they became in a state of sin by disobeying God. Up until then they were in a state of grace. God freed us from Original Sin by baptism. That is why he the the new Adam obeyed God and Mary the new Eve Obeyed God. We have the stain of OS on us, but Christ died and freed us of OS and all of our other sin by giving us the Church and confession.

No, they were not perfect.

How does someone who has the imperfection of pride, perfect?
How does someone who is naive, be perfect?
How does someone who is stupid, be perfect?

These are the bugs in the software. The software crashed. Oops, quick, throw the computer out the window. Blame the software, not the programmer.

 

[BobCatholic]

Then BobC, look at the Blessed Mother she was sinless and the hand held to her. If God can make a good out of what happened to Jesus, we are a walk in the park.

She was created perfect. She was the 2nd human being (Jesus being the other) who were perfect.

Remember when you are faithful to God. God will be faithful to you.

I want to be faithful and stay faithful. I want my imperfections gone.

God want us all to come to him with our problems. He can handle them all.

If that were true, he would never say no to helping with our problems. He only wants to do what he wants to do.

Trust me Bob we are all train wrecks.

Bob blows his broken train whistle

And Bob God does not what you to give up yourself.

If one wants to follow me, one must deny their very self and follow me I wonder who said that?

The self is evil. Thus I am evil because I committed the greatest sin in the world - my self exists.

I’m not supposed to have a self. I’m supposed to be like Jesus because only Jesus goes to haven. Everyone in heaven is a clone of Jesus.

 

[BobCatholic]

Remember what Papa always told me before he died, Jesus was perfect and they crucified him, what do you think they will do to you. Hang in there buddy, We both will

Love that saying

 

[rinnie]

She was created perfect. She was the 2nd human being (Jesus being the other) who were perfect.

MARY WAS CREATED PERFECT BECAUSE SHE WAS SAVED FROM ORIGINAL SIN AT THE MOMENT OF HER CONCEPTION.

I want to be faithful and stay faithful. I want my imperfections gone.

WE ALL WANT THIS BOB, BUT IT TAKES ALOT OF PRAYER AND NOT MANY OF US GET HERE, BUT WE STRIVE FOR IT TILL OUR DEATH.

If that were true, he would never say no to helping with our problems. He only wants to do what he wants to do.
THIS IS NOT TRUE BOB, GOD DOES SAY NO. HE ONLY SAYS YES IF YOUR WILL IS HIS WILL. YOU HAVE TO TRUST HIM THAT HE KNOW MORE THAN YOU AND HIS WILL IS BETTER FOR YOU THEN YOUR WILL. IF YOUR WILL IS THE SAME AS HIS WILL IT WILL HAPPEN.

Bob blows his broken train whistle

THIS IS GREAT, I AM FEELING YOU HERE BOB

If one wants to follow me, one must deny their very self and follow me I wonder who said that?

The self is evil. Thus I am evil because I committed the greatest sin in the world - my self exists.

I’m not supposed to have a self. I’m supposed to be like Jesus because only Jesus goes to haven. Everyone in heaven is a clone of Jesus.

WE ARE YES ALL CALLED TO BE SAINTS, BUT NOT A CLONE OF JESUS, JESUS IS NOT A SAINT HE IS GOD. WE WILL NEVER BE A CLONE OF GOD. BUT YES WE ARE TAUGHT TO IMITATE CHRIST IN ALL WE DO AND THINK.

YOU ARE NOT EVIL BOB, YOU ARE HUMAN, AND YOU HAVE FAULTS, BUT YOU HAVE LOVE FOR OTHERS, LOVE FOR YOUR GOD AND FAMILY, AND COMPASSION. GOD ASKS NO MORE THEN THAT. YOU DO YOUR BEST, GOD ASKS NO MORE THAN THAT.

(sorry bob I put my answers in caps so you can see my responses,) I could never figure out how to copy and paste or whatever it is.