Is the time right for a repeal of the 2nd amendment?

[Vouthon]

I disagree.

“Arms” is a term not limited to firearms, understood in a historical perspective. Before the age of gunpowder, there were many other deadly weapons. It is the underlying principle that is important here, the moral principle about limiting, regulating, controlling and outlawing deadly weapons and this not contradicting a natural right to self-defense.

The crossbow, as I explained, was used by urban militias and also by civilians for hunting (and other purposes, as starshiptrooper notes above, in a civilian context).

It was a blanket prohibition on its use period, as a violent implement.

 

[starshiptrooper]

No, the text only prohibts its use against Christians by Christians. In other words it was okay to kill Saracens with a crossbow. It was an attempt by the knights to keep their power, nothing special about that!

 

[Vouthon]

I’m aware that the ban was directed to intra-Christian violence but I think you are being distinctly unfair and narrow in your interpretation.

The Second and Third Lateran councils, condemned jousts, use of bows etc. for the reason that they led to the “spilling of Christian blood”. Thus in the 1190s Pope Celestine III condemned the “depraved” custom of trial by combat. Tournaments, jousting, and training for combat were principal occupations for noblemen, and yet the church was proscribing them as ‘detestable’.

Master Thomas of Chobham, for instance, in his Summa confessorum (c. 1216), warned against the sentencing of men to death or mutilation by clerics, urging that ‘So great is the dread of human blood that even a judge who justly slays the wicked, if he enters the religious life or wishes to be made a cleric, cannot be promoted to holy orders.’

Clerics were also prohibited from engaging in violence in the Fourth Lateran Council, including this “crossbow” issue again:

18. Clerics to dissociate from shedding-blood

No cleric may decree or pronounce a sentence involving the shedding of blood, or carry out a punishment involving the same, or be present when such punishment is carried out. A cleric may not write or dictate letters which require punishments involving the shedding of blood, in the courts of princes this responsibility should be entrusted to laymen and not to clerics. Moreover no cleric may be put in command of mercenaries or crossbowmen or suchlike men of blood

This clearly goes beyond a mere partiality to nobles, because the ambit is much wider than just the crossbow (but note how crossbowmen in this later council of 1215 are yet again condemned as being “men of blood” akin to mercenaries).

It is connected to the earlier Peace and Truce of God, inspired by the declaration of Saint Agobard (799-840), archbishop of Lyons, that: “Whoever spills human blood, His (God’s) blood is spilled as well: For man is made in the image of God”.

This was the canonical reason given for doing this - which is what’s important from a doctrinal perspective.

 

[Rhubarb]

I wouldn’t advocate for repeal. But I wouldn’t regret it either.

 

[Road-Worrier]

The time to repeal the 2nd amendment is when 2/3s majorities of both Houses of Congress and 3/4s of state legislatures vote to. The problem for gun control advocates is they know that won’t happen in the foreseeable future, but rather than accept that and work with gun rights advocates to do things to reduce gun violence that both sides can agree to, they resort to anti-Constitutional methods to implement their vision of a government monopoly on gun ownership which only serves to further polarize the issue and make compromise less rather than more likely.

 

[JonNC]

It’s still a weapon designed for war. If you asked Eugene what the percentage difference was between his M16 and AR15, I really think you’d elicit a laugh, Jon.

Every weapon civilians own was once a weapon used by the military. Revolvers. Bolt actions. As it stands today, semiautomatics are not used in the military

 

[Theo520]

It was a blanket prohibition on its use period, as a violent implement.

So you think in the subsequent 800 yrs the Church has just forgot to repeat and clarify that civilians should not be armed with lethal weapons?

You are doing some serious prooftexting to make your claim on present day Church guidance.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

It’s still a weapon designed for war. If you asked Eugene what the percentage difference was between his M16 and AR15, I really think you’d elicit a laugh, Jon.

Every weapon civilians own was once a weapon used by the military. Revolvers. Bolt actions. As it stands today, semiautomatics are not used in the military

Of course they are… Are you serious?

 

[Peebo]

I don’t know why so many people are going on and on about the AR-15 as a home defense weapon…the best weapon for the vast majority of home owners who probably go to the range once or twice with their AR-15 and never look at it again…is a pump action 12 gauge shotgun…not only that…the vast majority again…would probably panic with their AR-15…and start blazing away…possibly killing their kids in the next room…or even their neighbors…it’s just total overkill for an “in home” defense weapon.

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[JonNC]

Of course they are… Are you serious?

You stating the obvious doesn’t change the fact that today, semiautomatic rifles are civilian rifles.
To say they were military rifles means nothing

 

[Vonsalza]

I don’t know why so many people are going on and on about the AR-15 as a home defense weapon…the best weapon for the vast majority of home owners who probably go to the range once or twice with their AR-15 and never look at it again…is a pump action 12 gauge shotgun…not only that…the vast majority again…would probably panic with their AR-15…and start blazing away…possibly killing their kids in the next room…or even their neighbors…it’s just total overkill for an “in home” defense weapon.

Spot on. 12 gauge and the finest shot you can find.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Of course they are… Are you serious?

You stating the obvious doesn’t change the fact that today, semiautomatic rifles are civilian rifles.
To say they were military rifles means nothing

They still use Barretts in the military. They’re semis. And that’s just off the top of my head.

And lever actions never caught on as military rifles. Too hard to fire from a prone position.

 

[Road-Worrier]

I don’t know why so many people are going on and on about the AR-15 as a home defense weapon…the best weapon for the vast majority of home owners who probably go to the range once or twice with their AR-15 and never look at it again…is a pump action 12 gauge shotgun…

The link you provide doesn’t say that. In fact it argues that the tactical platform is perfectly suitable for home defense.

The best home defense rifles are of the pistol-caliber or tactical semi-auto carbine types. Tactical rifles, or otherwise known as modern sporting rifles have risen in popularity over the last few years. The most renowned models are of the AR-15 design. Some of the known rifles in this category are the Ruger Mini 14, the M1 Carbine and the AK-47. All of them are relatively easy to shoot with, produce low recoil levels, are light and can hold plenty of rounds.

Spot on. 12 gauge and the finest shot you can find.

Shotguns are certainly suitable for home defense, but they are not clearly superior to an semi-automatic rife. They’re superior in some situations and inferior in others. Having shot both, I can shoot an AR all day long, but a couple of rounds from a 12 gauge and I need some Motrin. It’s much easier to maintain proficiency with a weapon that doesn’t hurt to shoot. Plus having spent some time in the military, I, and anybody else who has ever been in brings a basic level of proficiency in both shooting and maintaining an AR to the table…

 

[JonNC]

They still use Barretts in the military. They’re semis. And that’s just off the top of my head.

And lever actions never caught on as military rifles. Too hard to fire from a prone position.

How many combat units in, say, Afghanistan, use semiautomatics?

FACT: Semiautomatic rifles and handguns in civilian hands are civilian weapons.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

Spot on. 12 gauge and the finest shot you can find.

Shotguns are certainly suitable for home defense, but they are not clearly superior to an semi-automatic rife. They’re superior in some situations and inferior in others. Having shot both, I can shoot an AR all day long, but a couple of rounds from a 12 gauge and I need some Motrin. It’s much easier to maintain proficiency with a weapon that doesn’t hurt to shoot.

I think that’s fair. But the advantage of a shotgun full of bird-shot is that you don’t have to be super-proficient to hit the guy.

And if you miss, two layers of drywall will probably soak up most of the energy. For a 5.56, I hope your kids don’t sleep in the next room.

And in this kind of situation, you’ll be jacked to the max. Even breaths and cool, aimed shots won’t be what your body is capable of serving up.

And I’ll add this, I’m completely comfortable modifying a shotgun to be an optimal home defense weapon. I haven’t done it, but I have friends who have.
You just can’t ever sell it.

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

They still use Barretts in the military. They’re semis. And that’s just off the top of my head.

And lever actions never caught on as military rifles. Too hard to fire from a prone position.

How many combat units in, say, Afghanistan, use semiautomatics?

FACT: Semiautomatic rifles and handguns in civilian hands are civilian weapons.

It’s fun to watch your position evolve day-by-day… Really.

 

[JonNC]

It’s fun to watch your position evolve day-by-day… Really.

And your anti rights position is remarkably consistent

 

[Vonsalza]

Vonsalza:

It’s fun to watch your position evolve day-by-day… Really.

And your anti rights position is remarkably consistent

Boo. (10 char req.)

 

[Theo520]

I don’t know why so many people are going on and on about the AR-15 as a home defense weapon…the best weapon for the vast majority of home owners who probably go to the range once or twice with their AR-15 and never look at it again…is a pump action 12 gauge shotgun…not only that…the vast majority again…would probably panic with their AR-15…and start blazing away…possibly killing their kids in the next room…or even their neighbors…it’s just total overkill for an “in home” defense weapon.

I agree that there are better guns for home defense, but the AR-15 is still very safe and functional, primarily due to the low recoil which greatly helps with shot placement.

 

[MonteRCMS]

20 ga shotgun … semi-auto or pump.

Recoil is an issue.