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estesbob
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And what agenda is that ?
Jessa Duggar Instagram Post Equating Holocaust and Abortion Causes Stir
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jeannetherese
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Roma, gays, those with birth defects, communists and labor leaders, Jews, Poles, Catholics-many groups and individuals experienced the pain and horror associated with the holocaust. The commonalty seems linked to their being branded as undesirable by those with sufficient power to take their lives in the name of creating better future for themselves.
There do seem to be similarities between this and the taking of the lives of the preborn (or partially born in some cases) by those with the power to end these lives in the name of creating a better future for themselves.
There do seem to be similarities between this and the taking of the lives of the preborn (or partially born in some cases) by those with the power to end these lives in the name of creating a better future for themselves.
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gracepoole
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The pro-life agenda.
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estesbob
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Which is what?
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gracepoole
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To draw attention to the immorality of abortion and eradicate it.
And the point of these questions is what?
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estesbob
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And as the Holocaust disproportionality effected Jews abortion disproportionality effects African Americans. Both the Holocaust and Abortion policies sprung from the early 19th Century eugenics movement
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estesbob
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Your OP seemed to hint at some nefarious agenda. I assume you support this agenda?
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gracepoole
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I think I made myself clear in my previous posts in this thread. I am pro-life. I think likening abortion to the Holocaust is overwhelmingly problematic for the reasons I’ve previously mentioned. I support the pro-life movement and its agenda. I strongly disagree with using the victims of another tragedy to further this agenda.
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estesbob
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Fair enough.
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Path_Finder
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But respectfully, a lot of good posts have been made here, especially those by GnjsDad. If ADL comes out to being basically a pro-choice organization backing abortion on demand, their concerns are questionable.
If the word “holocaust” indeed was used by Winston Churchill to talk about the treatment of the Armenian Christians before World War II, now it becomes a bit difficult to say this word should be used for exclusive purposes.
If the word “holocaust” indeed was used by Winston Churchill to talk about the treatment of the Armenian Christians before World War II, now it becomes a bit difficult to say this word should be used for exclusive purposes.
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estesbob
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Jews are hyper-sensitive about anyone supposedly “co-opting” the Holocaust. I recall when Edith Stein was canonized there was a lot of criticism of the Church attempting to co-opt the Holocaust.
I think the comparison is apt-especially in the context Duggar used it. As I have stated I had similar thoughts after I toured the Holocaust Museum in DC.
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gracepoole
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I appreciate the respect and I definitely return it. That said, the ADL is only one organization – I can’t count the number of Holocaust scholars, organizations, and (most importantly) survivors who find this analogy highly offensive. I could offer multiple claims against it – the Holocaust as the culmination of the “longest hatred,” for example, which makes it far more unique than most have acknowledged. But for the survivors alone (with whom I regularly work), I’d be willing to refrain from making this comparison. What we’ve seen in this thread is a good argument in favor of identifying abortion as a genocide. I’m fine with this association! And I think it’s quite powerful – there’s much literature on the use of this term (genocide) and why and how it’s used. People see conflicts far differently – more seriously – when this term is used.
Previously in this thread, posters have claimed not to care if the association is found to be offensive. They’ve claimed that Jews should be able to process their trauma and put it in context with other sources of suffering. Catholics often argue against the term “same-sex marriage” because they feel the term “marriage” has been co-opted and maligned. They find the misuse of this term offensive. Why should we not be sensitive, then, to the offense taken by victims’ families and survivors? Why should we imagine ourselves to be charitable when we disregard their reactions?
Ultimately, however, I seriously worry about the pro-life movement if this analogy is continued. I can’t identify one person in communities studying, teaching about, and commemorating the Holocaust who see it as legitimate. Instead of further emphasizing the trauma and horror of abortion, the use of this term leaves people thinking that those in the pro-life movement are willing to use anyone and anything to push their agenda. And that’s definitely not helping to further the cause.
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anibal
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But a Holocaust is a genocide. My guess is that you wouldn’t be offended if they called what happened in Rwanda a Holocaust. Some say that the Rape of Nanking was a Holocaust against the Chinese.
There is a Holocaust topic which gets incidental coverage. It’s how often did sexual relations happen between German soldiers & Jewess women including in concentration camps? The 1935 Nuremberg Law forbade sexual relations between Germans & non-Aryans. We know that the concentration camps sometimes had brothels which allowed non-Aryan men to have sex with non-Aryan women. In his book the 3rd Reich @ War, Professor R.J. Evans wrote that the Nazis limited entertainment Poles, Czechs & Slavs could have to things such as sex. Sexual relations between Germans & non-Aryans was punished, including things such as shaving heads of women who violated this rule.
As Prof. Ian Kershaw wrote Nemesis (1936-1945), Nazi Germany’s plan was lebensraum (living space) where Jewry would be exterminated (along with Gypsies, handicapped with Aktion-4 or T4 Program) & Germans would be Europe’s. Non-Germans such as Poles, Czechs & others would have limited education (my guess would be 5th grade though Prof. Kershaw wrote reading signs) doing unskilled jobs whose interest was to do what benefits Germans. Nazi Germans had a program called Lebensborn (Life Fountain) where blonde haired blue eyed or Aryan looking children who were Polish, Czech, etc. were taken from their families & given to German families, sometimes after the kid’s parents were killed, where the kids would be raised as Germans by the German families. Nazi soldiers were encouraged to have many children as possibile & German soldiers fathering children with Scandinavian women was also promoted as Hitler had a high view of Scandinavians or Nordics-Denmark & Norway were under Nazis, Sweden was neutral and Finland was an ally (Mannerheim was ruler).
But what I’d like to know & w/o sensationalism, is how often did sexual relations happen between Nazi soldiers & Jewess women? Though 1935 Nuremberg laws forbade this, my guess would be that sexual relations did sometimes happen between Nazi soldiers & Jewess women though it’s mostly Nazi soldiers raping Jewess women as it’s forced sexual relations. We know that Jewish men were most likely to be killed by Nazis or sent to concentration camps to be starved & worked to death, shot, hanged, gassed, etc. We know that old people and children were killed such as shootings, starved & worked to death, die of diseases such as T.B. or typhoid, gassings, etc.
But I would think that Jewess women who were in 20s & 30s (esp. 18 to 35 years old) would have best survival chances because they had something to offer the Nazi guards which the others could not & that is sex. Incidentally, there were women concentration camp guards-most concentration camp guards were men. But I would say that there are cases where a male Nazi concentration camp guard would tell a Jewess woman (women) that if the Jewess woman would have sex with him, then he would see to it that the Jewess woman was treated well, though he would be raping the Jewess woman. The rest of the Jewess woman’s family was likely killed or die in concentration camps, if they didn’t survive. I believe there were incidents of babies born who were children of Nazi soldiers being the fathers & the moms being the raped Jewess women. But this part of Holocaust history has gotten minor coverage & I don’t know any books on this which aren’t sensationalist.
1935 Nuremberg laws forbidding sexual relations between Germans & non-Aryans was violated often in the concentration camps & I think there were many incidents of Nazi soldiers raping Jewess women. We know that in Asia during WW2, Japanese soldiers sometimes raped women in China, Phillippines, etc. & women were sometimes forced to work in Japanese military brothels.
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anibal
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Do you believe that the Jerusalem Mufti Amin al Husseini was involved with the Holocaust? During WW2, there were Berber and Arab soldiers in the Wehrmacht as during the African campaign, Berber and Arab soldiers in Wehrmacht helping Nazi Germany & their ally Fascist Italy (Libya & Ethiopia were then Italian colonies under Benito Amilcare Andrea Mussolini while Algeria was then a French colony-of course France had been under Nazi rule and was a German puppet with Vichy) when both nations fought against the Allied militaries of U.S. and U.K. The fighting took place in North Africa-Libya, Ethiopia (then Abysinnia), Eritrea and Tunisia with both Germany and Italy losing to the Allies in Africa in 1943. Nerve gases were used against Abysinnia. In Europe there were Muslim soldiers such as Croatians & Albanians who fought on the side of the Germans during WW2.
But as asked, was the Mufti Amin al Husseini a planner of the Holocaust ? The Nazis tried to keep the Holocaust a secret, using code words and euphemisms such as Reservation, evacuation, Madagascar, etc. instead of extermination, etc. when sending reports back to Hitler. Nazi Germany did have a plan to use Einsatzgruppen Egypt where Arab & Berber soldiers would exterminate Jews in then Palestine-the Nazis didn’t make it to Palestine as they were defeated in African theater. Mufti Amin Al Husseini did not want Jews in then Palestine & was ansi-Semitic but would he want to exterminate them? The Simon Wisenthal Center says yes, but the U.S. Holocaust Museum as of 2010 makes no mention of him.
Arabs esp. Palestinian Arabs have said that the Mufti Amin Al Husseini is a minor figure when it comes to Nazi Germany & that the reason he sought alliance with Adolf Hitler was to fight British rule in Palestine the same way as Indian leader Subhas Chandra Bose sought help from Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan to fight for India’s independence from the British. Subhas Chandra Bose is a minor figure with regard to Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy & Imperial Japan. Arabs have said that the reason the accusation is made about the Mufti Amin Al Husseini took part in Holocaust is because of the Arab-Jewish conflicts and that if Hindus and Jews were fighting each other, Indian leader Subhash Chandra Bose would get the same accusation as the Mufti does today.
Ian Kershaw in his 2 bestsellers on Hitler-Hubris (1889-1936) & Nemesis (1936-1945) gives minor reference to the Mufti. Professor R.J. Evans in his book the 3rd Reich @ War wrote of Arab and Berber soldiers in the Wehrmacht and that during WW2 in Africa, Arab and Berber soldiers forced Jews to work on Transsahran Railway and they raped Jewess women. There were also killings of Jews.
But again, was the Mufti Amin Al Husseini’s interest to exterminate the Jews? With Israel-Arab dispute, it has been said that if the Arab nations had their way, Israel would no longer exist and some have said there would be another Holocaust. While it is true Israel would no longer exist, I don’t think it would go to the extreme the Holocaust did, in that I don’t think the interest of the Arab nations is to exterminate Jews. But what do you think of Jerusalem Mufti Amin Al Husseini? There is disagreement on whether the Mufti wanted to exterminate Jews but how much do you know about this?
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gracepoole
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For those who study, teach about, commemorate, survived, or are related to a victim of the Holocaust, there is no such thing as “a Holocaust.” Nor, for that matter, is there “a holocaust.” There is one, which is a reference to the Nazi genocide against Jews. The genocide in Rwanda is not referred to as a Holocaust by anyone – or at least not by anyone knowledgeable. Nor is Nanking.
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Path_Finder
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I’d be interested in seeing some Conservative Judaic organization say they find the comparison repugnant. So far we have the ADL. Is there someone else?
If it is only the ADL who comes out when Mike Huckabee or someone says this, I have to question the ADL’s motives.
If it is only the ADL who comes out when Mike Huckabee or someone says this, I have to question the ADL’s motives.
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anibal
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But the #s killed in the Holodomor are way more-people were starved and worked to death, tortured, shot and killed in Dubno, Kolyma, Krasnogorsk + other Soviet GULag and many deaths being forced to work building the Trans Siberian Railways. It has been said that the Holocaust has become a 2nd religion for some Jews. But the Holodomor took many more lives. And some of Stalin’s henchmen such as Lazar Kaganovitch, Genrikh Yagoda, Yev Mekhlis and others were Jewish, yet you get called anti-Semite if you mention this truth. Don’t think Hollywood would do a movie on Stalin’s Jewish henchmen and their complicity in the Soviet Holodomor.
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Dawnia
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I know a few dictionaries that would disagree with you on “a holocaust”.
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gracepoole
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The Simon Wiesenthal Center, Yad Vashem (Israel’s Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority, which is rivaled internationally only by the USHMM), Nobel prize-winner and survivor Elie Wiesel… I can’t think of any member organization in the AHO (Association of Holocaust Organizations) that accepts the use of “holocaust” in this way.
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gracepoole
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The Holodomor was indeed a horrific atrocity, one that never gets the kind of attention it deserves. (It would be *fabulous *to see this topic brought to international attention through a Hollywood film, though I agree that it’s, sadly, probably unlikely.) But no one refers to the Holodomor as “a holocaust.” It’s rightly termed a genocide. I’m never too keen on comparing body counts to determine how bad an atrocity was or to compare atrocities. And I’m not familiar with any scholarship that applies the term “holocaust” according to body count. As for the Holocaust being a “second religion for some Jews”…that seems offensive and laughable (not that *you *are – just the idea being discussed). The Holocaust is definitely a portion of Jewish identity. Failing to understand why that is means a failure to understand Jewry.
I haven’t disputed that the word has a history outside of the Nazi genocide against the Jews. This really ain’t my first rodeo. I’m well-versed in the term’s etymology and contemporary usage.I know a few dictionaries that would disagree with you on “a holocaust”.
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