Jessa Duggar Instagram Post Equating Holocaust and Abortion Causes Stir

[Path_Finder]

The Simon Wiesenthal Center, Yad Vashem (Israel’s Holocaust Martyrs’ and Heroes’ Remembrance Authority, which is rivaled internationally only by the USHMM), Nobel prize-winner and survivor Elie Wiesel… I can’t think of any member organization in the AHO (Association of Holocaust Organizations) that accepts the use of “holocaust” in this way.

Yad Vashem Press Room, nothing on this story: yadvashem.org/yv/en/pressroom/index.asp

Simon Weisenthal Center Press Releases, nothing on this story: wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nl/newsletter2.asp?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467#.VDWXDFcXNvU

But as for Weisenthal, it certainly looks like they are going after “big fish”, it looks like this doesn’t even cause a stir. It probably gives it attention if anything when ADL objects.

So you can say differently, in my opinion, it’s not important enough for these organizations to worry about it and you can disagree.

 

[gracepoole]

Yad Vashem Press Room, nothing on this story: yadvashem.org/yv/en/pressroom/index.asp

Simon Weisenthal Center Press Releases, nothing on this story: wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nl/newsletter2.asp?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467#.VDWXDFcXNvU

But as for Weisenthal, it certainly looks like they are going after “big fish”, it looks like this doesn’t even cause a stir. It probably gives it attention if anything when ADL objects.

So you can say differently, in my opinion, it’s not important enough for these organizations to worry about it and you can disagree.

Path Finder, I normally find it ugly when people throw out credentials and associations – and I normally find that doing so turns others off, as well. But I’m not sure how to more clearly state this. Part of my job involves working intimately with over 50 Jewish and Holocaust-related organizations. I was just with representatives of them in June and nearly every voice in the room (including those from the organizations I previously mentioned) decried the use of the term by those fighting abortion. If I submitted an inquiry to them right now, they’d be thrilled to register their horror. I would seriously caution against the dismissal of their concern simply because the ADL is the only public voice publishing its outrage on the subject. Educators, archivists, historians, curators, teachers, directors, filmmakers, authors… All of these are represented in my circle and all roundly and universally reject the use of the term “holocaust” to refer to anything other than the Nazi genocide. You don’t have to accept my word for this, of course – but in choosing not to, you’d be dismissing the word of an authority who works with many other authorities. (And now I fully expect folks to ignore or challenge me… )

 

[estesbob]

Path Finder, I normally find it ugly when people throw out credentials and associations – and I normally find that doing so turns others off, as well. But I’m not sure how to more clearly state this. Part of my job involves working intimately with over 50 Jewish and Holocaust-related organizations. I was just with representatives of them in June and nearly every voice in the room (including those from the organizations I previously mentioned) decried the use of the term by those fighting abortion. If I submitted an inquiry to them right now, they’d be thrilled to register their horror. I would seriously caution against the dismissal of their concern simply because the ADL is the only public voice publishing its outrage on the subject. Educators, archivists, historians, curators, teachers, directors, filmmakers, authors… All of these are represented in my circle and all roundly and universally reject the use of the term “holocaust” to refer to anything other than the Nazi genocide. You don’t have to accept my word for this, of course – but in choosing not to, you’d be dismissing the word of an authority who works with many other authorities. (And now I fully expect folks to ignore or challenge me… )

And from where do they derive the authority to determine who can and can not use the term holocaust?

 

[Mulligan2]

Path Finder, I normally find it ugly when people throw out credentials and associations – and I normally find that doing so turns others off, as well. But I’m not sure how to more clearly state this. Part of my job involves working intimately with over 50 Jewish and Holocaust-related organizations. I was just with representatives of them in June and nearly every voice in the room (including those from the organizations I previously mentioned) decried the use of the term by those fighting abortion. If I submitted an inquiry to them right now, they’d be thrilled to register their horror. I would seriously caution against the dismissal of their concern simply because the ADL is the only public voice publishing its outrage on the subject. Educators, archivists, historians, curators, teachers, directors, filmmakers, authors… All of these are represented in my circle and all roundly and universally reject the use of the term “holocaust” to refer to anything other than the Nazi genocide. You don’t have to accept my word for this, of course – but in choosing not to, you’d be dismissing the word of an authority who works with many other authorities. (And now I fully expect folks to ignore or challenge me… )

Your post makes perfect sense to me. However, I suspect many other posters will continue to use the deplorable Nazi and holocaust references to suit their own purposes.

 

[estesbob]

Your post makes perfect sense to me. However, I suspect many other posters will continue to use the deplorable Nazi and holocaust references to suit their own purposes.

And what purpose is that?

 

[gracepoole]

And from where do they derive the authority to determine who can and can not use the term holocaust?

From where do you derive yours?

 

[Mulligan2]

And what purpose is that?

I am not a mind reader. However, I am disinterested in what your purpose is.

 

[estesbob]

From where do you derive yours?

It is my opinion it was an apt comparison given the context she made it in. I don’t believe any of the organizations you mentioned have copyrighted or trademarked the term “holocaust”.

 

[estesbob]

I am not a mind reader. However, I am disinterested in what your purpose is.

Do you think the slaughter of 50 million children is more or less deplorable than the slaughter of 6 million Jews?

 

[gracepoole]

It is my opinion it was an apt comparison given the context she made it in. I don’t believe any of the organizations you mentioned have copyrighted or trademarked the term “holocaust”.

Opinions are not equal. The authorities to whom I referred all have advanced academic backgrounds (meaning they’ve studied the subject at an advanced level, some for half a century), have read extensively on both the Holocaust and the uses (and misuses) of it, have worked closely with a slew of scholars and survivors from around the world, and have spent years working solely on this topic. Their opinions *should *carry more weight. I’m definitely not claiming you aren’t entitled to your opinion. I just think it would be foolhardy to disregard the opinions of those who have devoted their lives to this kind of question.

 

[estesbob]

Opinions are not equal. The authorities to whom I referred all have advanced academic backgrounds (meaning they’ve studied the subject at an advanced level, some for half a century), have read extensively on both the Holocaust and the uses (and misuses) of it, have worked closely with a slew of scholars and survivors from around the world, and have spent years working solely on this topic. Their opinions *should *carry more weight. I’m definitely not claiming you aren’t entitled to your opinion. I just think it would be foolhardy to disregard the opinions of those who have devoted their lives to this kind of question.

They have no more claim to the term “holocaust” than I do.

 

[gracepoole]

Do you think the slaughter of 50 million children is more or less deplorable than the slaughter of 6 million Jews?

Creating an “Olympics of Suffering” in which one atrocity gets the gold, another the silver, and so on is a horrible mistake. None of these have to be viewed as more or less deplorable than others – they are all violations of the life and dignity of the human person.

 

[gracepoole]

They have no more claim to the term “holocaust” than I do.

You’re just as knowledgeable as they are?

 

[estesbob]

Creating an “Olympics of Suffering” in which one atrocity gets the gold, another the silver, and so on is a horrible mistake. None of these have to be viewed as more or less deplorable than others – they are all violations of the life and dignity of the human person.

Im not the one that claimed invoking the word holocaust while referring to 50 million slaughtered children was “deplorable”

 

[gracepoole]

Im not the one that claimed invoking the word holocaust while referring to 50 million slaughtered children was “deplorable”

Are you, then, arguing that anything or anyone can be used when arguing against abortion because there have been “50 million slaughtered children”?

 

[estesbob]

Are you, then, arguing that anything or anyone can be used when arguing against abortion because there have been “50 million slaughtered children”?

Im arguing that the comparison is apt.

 

[estesbob]

You’re just as knowledgeable as they are?

I suspect I am much more knowledgeable about the holocaust of abortion than they are. Ive been involved in the ministry for over 30 years, have counseled at a CPC and trained to run support groups for men who child was aborted.

 

[Path_Finder]

Path Finder, I normally find it ugly when people throw out credentials and associations – and I normally find that doing so turns others off, as well. But I’m not sure how to more clearly state this. Part of my job involves working intimately with over 50 Jewish and Holocaust-related organizations. I was just with representatives of them in June and nearly every voice in the room (including those from the organizations I previously mentioned) decried the use of the term by those fighting abortion. If I submitted an inquiry to them right now, they’d be thrilled to register their horror. I would seriously caution against the dismissal of their concern simply because the ADL is the only public voice publishing its outrage on the subject. Educators, archivists, historians, curators, teachers, directors, filmmakers, authors… All of these are represented in my circle and all roundly and universally reject the use of the term “holocaust” to refer to anything other than the Nazi genocide. You don’t have to accept my word for this, of course – but in choosing not to, you’d be dismissing the word of an authority who works with many other authorities. (And now I fully expect folks to ignore or challenge me… )

Again, respectfully, since Jews for Life states:

Jews For Life was an organization created to reflect the traditional Jewish pro-life perspective on abortion. The purpose was to provide visitors with the facts about the consequences that have befallen women and our culture since Roe v. Wade was enacted into law. Jews For Life maintained that life, both born and unborn, is sacred and worthy of protection** and that the current ‘pro-choice’ position of mainstream liberal Jewish organizations is antithetical to the traditional teachings of the Jewish faith.**

Okay, I found like quotes in a few places.

As to your “experience”, I believe you, that’s great but nonetheless, this is what is known as “appealing to authority” such as if I were to say “I spoke to a Rabbi and he saw nothing wrong with it.”

Since as stated by Jews for Life, the American Jewish communities viewpoint on abortion seems to be “antithetical to the traditional teaching of the Jewish faith”, I say there is no reason that it is wrong for Duggar to say what she did. If anything, what is wrong and shameful is the majority American Jewish viewpoint on this issue. So if they don’t like it, it’s a free country. Have them enact legislation and patent the word.

IOW, the disgrace is not with Duggar here. As they say something about removing the plank out of one’s eye.

 

[gracepoole]

I suspect I am much more knowledgeable about the holocaust of abortion than they are. Ive been involved in the ministry for over 30 years, have counseled at a CPC and trained to run support groups for men who child was aborted.

Yet it isn’t Holocaust survivors who are calling what they experienced an abortion. *This *is why we should listen to those who are knowledgeable, specifically, about the Holocaust before using this analogy.

Again, respectfully, since Jews for Life states:

Jews For Life was an organization created to reflect the traditional Jewish pro-life perspective on abortion. The purpose was to provide visitors with the facts about the consequences that have befallen women and our culture since Roe v. Wade was enacted into law. Jews For Life maintained that life, both born and unborn, is sacred and worthy of protection** and that the current ‘pro-choice’ position of mainstream liberal Jewish organizations is antithetical to the traditional teachings of the Jewish faith.**

Okay, I found like quotes in a few places.

As to your “experience”, I believe you, that’s great but nonetheless, this is what is known as “appealing to authority” such as if I were to say “I spoke to a Rabbi and he saw nothing wrong with it.”

Since as stated by Jews for Life, the American Jewish communities viewpoint on abortion seems to be “antithetical to the traditional teaching of the Jewish faith”, I say there is no reason that it is wrong for Duggar to say what she did. If anything, what is wrong and shameful is the majority American Jewish viewpoint on this issue. So if they don’t like it, it’s a free country. Have them enact legislation and patent the word.

IOW, the disgrace is not with Duggar here. As they say something about removing the plank out of one’s eye.

Appealing to authority is only problematic if there truly is no reasonable authority. If I demonstrate authority, if I demonstrate the authority of others, and we’re all still roundly ignored, that’s a problem but it isn’t a problem with the authorities or their credibility. It sounds as though even when people are confronted with the myriad of problems that exist with this comparison, folks just want to do what they want to do with it anyway.

 

[Dawnia]

St. John Paul II frequently mentioned and wrote about abortion being comparable to the Holocaust. There are quite a number of news articles over the years from people having a hissy over him using abortion and the Holocaust in the same vicinity of each other.

On the 25th Anniversary of Roe v Wade (1997)

As you, your Brother Bishops and great numbers of the faithful from throughout the United States gather at the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception to pray for an end to the tragedy of abortion in your country, I assure you of my spiritual closeness and my sharing in your concern** for the continuing holocaust of innocent human lives**.