Jesus Christ - Bible Study

[Mickey]

Are you still united to Adam?

Adam caused me to be born into a fallen world, but I am saved by Jesus Christ, who is fully human and fully divine–and I receive the Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist at every Divine Liturgy.

Thanks be to God.

Slava Isusu Christu!
Slava Na Viki!

 

[M0nkey]

Here is the verse with mutually exclusive interpretations with great theological implications. Roman Catholics see this verse to mean that Jesus is teaching baptismal regeneration. Was baptismal regeneration practiced before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, or after? In this historical account, the Christian sacrament of baptism wasn’t even instituted at this point in history. Therefore, Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about something different than Christian baptism, especially since Nicodemus should have understood the OT Scriptures. How could Nicodemus understand this spiritual truth as baptismal regeneration because the concept would be completely foreign to Nicodemus. That is the seed that I will plant in your heads. I think we need to move on…please. Read the chapter in proper context within the ministry of Jesus and the rest of John chapter 3. .

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus is giving us a foreshadowing of his coming baptism in the cross. St. John the baptist spoke of him saying that he’ll come and baptize you with the holy spirit and fire. Obviously, he could only mean baptismal regeneration. The timeline here is irrelevant since Jesus’ focus was the will of his father, which meant embracing the cross for the salvation of men.

BTW, Nicodemus was well aware of baptism since he must have heard of John the baptist. Think about it.

Here is a very difficult question for those who believe in baptismal regeneration. If the Catholic Church believes that regeneration occurs at baptism, then why would the Catholic Church hold back the converting sacrament of baptism for one year to complete an RCIA course? As we all know, not all attends an RCIA class have been batized before. Are you saying that a person is unregenerate for one year, until he makes it through the RCIA classes, then the Catholic Church administers the sacrament which converts him to Christ?

Brother Reformed, have you been baptized in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit? If so, then you have followed the formula Christ has prescribed to be members of his body. However, you are still not in full communion with His Church.

 

[Reformed]

Adam caused me to be born into a fallen world, but I am saved by Jesus Christ, who is fully human and fully divine–and I receive the Body and Blood of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist at every Divine Liturgy.

Thanks be to God.

Slava Isusu Christu!
Slava Na Viki!

You still didn’t answer my question. Are you still united to Adam?

Originally Posted by Mickey
Jesus Christ is the new Adam. He is 100% human nature (flesh) and 100% Divine (Spirit).

True, Jesus is the 2nd Adam. Are you still united to Adam? - Reformed

 

[Reformed]

Jesus is giving us a foreshadowing of his coming baptism in the cross. St. John the baptist spoke of him saying that he’ll come and baptize you with the holy spirit and fire. Obviously, he could only mean baptismal regeneration. The timeline here is irrelevant since Jesus’ focus was the will of his father, which meant embracing the cross for the salvation of men.

BTW, Nicodemus was well aware of baptism since he must have heard of John the baptist. Think about it.

Of course I disagree with your understanding. Here is the Scripture that you paraphrased. Nicodemus did not understand the teaching of Jesus that you must be born again before you can even see the kingdom of God. How can you get baptismal regeneration from the ministry and teaching of John the Baptist?

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

 

[Reformed]

Brother Reformed, have you been baptized in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit? If so, then you have followed the formula Christ has prescribed to be members of his body. However, you are still not in full communion with His Church.

The obdedient act of being baptized is an outward sign of the inward reality of being born from above. How else can you obey the command of Christ to be baptised? The Scripture clearly teaches in Romans 8 that those in the flesh cannot please God. Did you obey God to be baptised by the power of the Spirit and being united to Christ? John 15 teaches that apart from Christ we can do nothing.Or, are you trying to say that while still dead in your sins and trespasses, being in the flesh and united to Adam, you were able to obey the command to be baptised to be the cause of your regeneration? You cannot will yourself to a new life in Christ. It is an act of God.

Colossians 2:13

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

By Grace Through Faith
2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [2] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

• Ephesians 2

 

[AshleyBelle]

The obdedient act of being baptized is an outward sign of the inward reality of being born from above. How else can you obey the command of Christ to be baptised? The Scripture clearly teaches in Romans 8 that those in the flesh cannot please God. Did you obey God to be baptised by the power of the Spirit and being united to Christ? John 15 teaches that apart from Christ we can do nothing.Or, are you trying to say that while still dead in your sins and trespasses, being in the flesh and united to Adam, you were able to obey the command to be baptised to be the cause of your regeneration? You cannot will yourself to a new life in Christ. It is an act of God.

Colossians 2:13

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

By Grace Through Faith
2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body [1] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But [2] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8** For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast**. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

• Ephesians 2

I’m still confused as to how you think catholics disagree with this statement in holy scripture???

 

[Reformed]

I’m still confused as to how you think catholics disagree with this statement in holy scripture???

Post 189 in the Sacred Oral and Written Tradition Thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by novaslasher
I understand your frustration in trying to pin down the content of Sacred Tradition. It sounds like what would most appeal to you would be a list of teachings that comprise Sacred Tradition as handed down from the Apostles; unfortunately you won’t find anything like this.

I’m also trying to get a better understanding of Sacred Tradition. I’m taking an intro graduate Catholic theology course at Christendom College and one of the lectures dealt with Tradition. According to our professor, Sacred Tradition complements Sacred Scripture and is coequal to Scripture. Tradition was the form in which the original teachings of Christ and the Apostles were handed down in the early Church before the Scriptures were completed and the canon was sealed. The Church Fathers do give an indication of the teachings of Tradition, but their combined written teachings are not the same thing as Tradition. Tradition is transmitted through the Magisterium and is not necessarily found in the individual teachings of each Church Father. The Fathers are not considered infallible and they can err (for example look at some of the writings of Origen). But when the Fathers agree on a teaching, it is a sign that they are teaching from Tradition.

There is a debate within Catholic theological circles about whether the entire content of Sacred Tradition is found within Sacred Scripture. Some theologians hold that there exists a subset of Sacred Tradition called constitutive Tradition. Constitutive tradition is extra-scriptural doctrines with no clear foundation in Scripture. Those who hold this view believe that some teachings of Tradition (like the canon of Scripture) are not in Scripture. A key point is that even though constitutive Tradition is extra-Scriptural, it does not contradict Sacred Scripture.

Other theologians believe that constitutive Tradition does not exist. Instead they believe that all Catholic teachings have at least a starting point within Scripture. Those who hold this view believe that Sacred Tradition is more akin to the authentic interpretation of Sacred Scripture by the Magisterium (those theologians who support constitutive Tradition also believe Tradition plays a large role in giving authentic interpretation to Scripture).

I’ll leave out the details of the debate between the two camps (such as whether the canon of Scripture is a true element of constitutive Tradition).

No matter which view is correct, Tradition should be viewed as an organic embodiment of the living teachings of Christ in the Church. It provides an authentic interpretation of the Scriptures and the living manifestation of those teachings (such as the Sacraments and liturgy). Hence you won’t find a laundry list of Traditions.

A good scholarly work to look at is “Tradition and Traditions” by Yves Congar. I’m

 

[AshleyBelle]

T 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

• Ephesians 2

Post 189 in the Sacred Oral and Written Tradition Thread.

You’re avoiding the question… Quoting a thread about sacred tradition has nothing to do with my question about how we disagree on this passage of scripture. “by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

This is exactly what the catholic church teaches and believes, so my question, again, is how do we disagree?
Unless you want us to believe that it’s acceptable to add an “alone” to the holy word of God, which He speciffically tells us we should never do.

Catholics do not believe that our own works earn our way into heaven. We agree with everything in this passage! Again…can you explain to me how we disagree???

As to the idea of tradition and magisterium… I will use the three legged stool analogy again. Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium are all gifts from God, left for His children. They are the three legs of a stool, take one away and the stool gets pretty wobbly. Take two away and it topples over. All are given by God, as a system of checks and balances for one another. All are true. None of the three can stand alone.

 

[Reformed]

You’re avoiding the question… Quoting a thread about sacred tradition has nothing to do with my question about how we disagree on this passage of scripture. “by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

This is exactly what the catholic church teaches and believes, so my question, again, is how do we disagree?
Unless you want us to believe that it’s acceptable to add an “alone” to the holy word of God, which He speciffically tells us we should never do.

Catholics do not believe that our own works earn our way into heaven. We agree with everything in this passage! Again…can you explain to me how we disagree???

As to the idea of tradition and magisterium… I will use the three legged stool analogy again. Scripture, Tradition, and Magisterium are all gifts from God, left for His children. They are the three legs of a stool, take one away and the stool gets pretty wobbly. Take two away and it topples over. All are given by God, as a system of checks and balances for one another. All are true. None of the three can stand alone.

Welcome to the battle for the gospel of God’s grace. How confident are you that you will be saved from the wrath of God and eternal judgement? What is the sole base of your salvation, are you saved by the righteousness of Christ alone?

 

[AshleyBelle]

Welcome to the battle for the gospel of God’s grace. How confident are you that you will be saved from the wrath of God and eternal judgement? What is the sole base of your salvation, are you saved by the righteousness of Christ alone?

Yay! Thank you for avoiding my question a second time! Please… I really am honestly trying to understand how we disagree with the passage concerning faith and grace in Ephesians …

But since you decided to answer a question with a question, I will play along.

“are you saved by the righteousness of Christ alone?”
There’s that word “alone” again. I am “saved” by Christ. I am BEING saved by Christ, daily, and continue to live my salvation IN Christ when I partake of Him in the eucharist. It is through Christ’s perfect sacrifice that salvation is offered to the world. It is through God’s grace that we can accept this gift, and through faith that we respond in love to Him.
It is through the grace of God that we are even capable of responding at all, and through His grace that our works bear any fruit. Without this grace, our works truly would be unworthy and fruitless. But because of God, our works are the fruit of faith. Faith in the assurance of our salvation through Christ.

Care for me to clarify any more than that??? How is this teaching contrary to scripture???

 

[AshleyBelle]

I’m asking because you are bombarding this forum with the premise of “sharing scripture” together, and yet you only want to share scripture when catholics are willing to conform to your interpretations.

The passage from Ephesians simply does not say faith “alone.” And why are you to assume, that catholics believe works “alone” gurantee our salvation? I see lots of The Bible “Alone!” Faith, “ALONE!” But contrary to what men, ALONE have decided to promulgate, God gave us much more than that!

“Works” that are pleasing to God, are not of our own accord. They are gifts we recieve from the GRACE of God! Not of our own accord, “lest no man should boast!” We do not teach that men do their own works to earn God’s favor, but rather, that by accepting Christ as HE taught, we particpate in our salvation, recieving the GRACE through faith, to LOVE and SERVE God. Service and love are the “works” you seem to think are so contrary to scripture.

 

[Reformed]

I’m asking because you are bombarding this forum with the premise of “sharing scripture” together, and yet you only want to share scripture when catholics are willing to conform to your interpretations.

The passage from Ephesians simply does not say faith “alone.” And why are you to assume, that catholics believe works “alone” gurantee our salvation? I see lots of The Bible “Alone!” Faith, “ALONE!” But contrary to what men, ALONE have decided to promulgate, God gave us much more than that!

“Works” that are pleasing to God, are not of our own accord. They are gifts we recieve from the GRACE of God! Not of our own accord, “lest no man should boast!” We do not teach that men do their own works to earn God’s favor, but rather, that by accepting Christ as HE taught, we particpate in our salvation, recieving the GRACE through faith, to LOVE and SERVE God. Service and love are the “works” you seem to think are so contrary to scripture.

I know that our differences are not easy to discern the first time around. I think you should study the theological issues regarding the Protestant Reformation. Here’s a few links:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html

Please take the time to read and study the issues so we can continue our discussion. The issues that caused the Protestant Reformation are the exact same issues that we have today.

 

[AshleyBelle]

I know that our differences are not easy to discern the first time around. I think you should study the theological issues regarding the Protestant Reformation. Here’s a few links:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas

reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/cambridge.html

Please take the time to read and study the issues so we can continue our discussion. The issues that caused the Protestant Reformation are the exact same issues that we have today.

Thank you for those links…

I don’t know if you’ve been to my other recent threads, but you do realize this is pretty common…

“You’re catholic now? Well…you must not have understood your protestant theology and history!”

Ironically enough, it was actually the study of my protestant theology and history which originally God used to direct me towards the Catholic church:thumbsup:

The issues that caused the protestant reformation are the same issues we have today, because unfortunately, people will always protest the truth. History has proven time and again, that our sinful natures are always failing. Thankfully, God left us with a church that He promised us will never fail.

I read a quote in somebody’s signature today, by G.K. Chesterton: “We don’t need a Church that is right when we are right, we need a Church that is right when we are wrong.”

 

[Reformed]

Thank you for those links…

I don’t know if you’ve been to my other recent threads, but you do realize this is pretty common…

“You’re catholic now? Well…you must not have understood your protestant theology and history!”

The issues that caused the protestant reformation are the same issues we have today, because unfortunately, people will always protest the truth. History has proven time and again, that our sinful natures are always failing. Thankfully, God left us with a church that He promised us will never fail.

I read a quote in somebody’s signature today, by G.K. Chesterton: “We don’t need a Church that is right when we are right, we need a Church that is right when we are wrong.”

Biography:
Blessed with an amazing husband, (5 years in May!) and three beautiful children!
Religion:
Catholic
Interests:
Violin, Opera, Theology, Family, Reading, Video Games, Computers
Occupation:
Homemaker/Stay at home mom

Look at your biography. You stated that you have interest in theology. Do you get your theology from the Holy Bible alone or through the Holy Bible and Sacred Tradition. Since you will say the Holy Bible and Sacred Tradition, please provide the once for all delievery of the deposit of faith of Sacred Traiditon so we all can study and read it. BTW…Catholic theologians debate within themselves to define what actually consists of Sacred Tradition. Do you see the Roman Catholic dilemma in trying to discern spiritual truth?

BTW… your quote from G.K. Chesterton is not even considered Sacred Tradition. It’s just an opinion.

 

[AshleyBelle]

Biography:
Blessed with an amazing husband, (5 years in May!) and three beautiful children!
Religion:
Catholic
Interests:
Violin, Opera, Theology, Family, Reading, Video Games, Computers
Occupation:
Homemaker/Stay at home mom

Look at your biography. You stated that you have interest in theology. Do you get your theology from the Holy Bible alone or through the Holy Bible and Sacred Tradition. Since you will say the Holy Bible and Sacred Tradition, please provide the once for all delievery of the deposit of faith of Sacred Traiditon so we all can study and read it. BTW…Catholic theologians debate within themselves to define what actually consists of Sacred Tradition. Do you see the Roman Catholic dilemma in trying to discern spiritual truth?

BTW… your quote from G.K. Chesterton is not even considered Sacred Tradition. It’s just an opinion.

SInce you’ve read my biography, you will also note I have three young children at home… So this is probably the last post I will have a chance to respond to today.

My Theology is based on the Bible, interpretted through the light of tradition and magisterium. All three were given to us by God.  My Theology is formed through my daily relationship with Him. It does not conform God to my idea of what truth should be, but rather conforms my heart to what God has declared and is declaring truth to be.
 Theologians who debate truth do not invalidate the absolute nature of truth. Their discussions and insights only develope and increase the range of our understanding of the truth. The truth is not a stagnant "5 essentials from the Bible even though the Bible doesn't claim 5 essentials."  The Truth is living, breathing, and revealing itself among us.  The church does not stifle our ability to gain insight into the truth. It simply protects us from gaining FALSE insight into the truth. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit, a gift promised by Christ himself.

 

[Reformed]

SInce you’ve read my biography, you will also note I have three young children at home… So this is probably the last post I will have a chance to respond to today.

My Theology is based on the Bible, interpretted through the light of tradition and magisterium. All three were given to us by God.  My Theology is formed through my daily relationship with Him. It does not conform God to my idea of what truth should be, but rather conforms my heart to what God has declared and is declaring truth to be.
 Theologians who debate truth do not invalidate the absolute nature of truth. Their discussions and insights only develope and increase the range of our understanding of the truth. The truth is not a stagnant "5 essentials from the Bible even though the Bible doesn't claim 5 essentials."  The Truth is living, breathing, and revealing itself among us.  The church does not stifle our ability to gain insight into the truth. It simply protects us from gaining FALSE insight into the truth. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit, a gift promised by Christ himself.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to illuminate truth to us through the Scriptures. Actually, the Holy Spirit dwells in us. He alone (the Holy Spirit) is the true vicar of Christ instead of the Catholic magisterium (Pope and bishops in communion with Him). God the Holy Spirit is God almighty… who is far superior then religious men. When time permits, I look forward to our disucssions,…that will help us both grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ together…to the praise of His glorious grace.

 

[mercygate]

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to illuminate truth to us through the Scriptures. Actually, the Holy Spirit dwells in us. He alone (the Holy Spirit) is the true vicar of Christ instead of the Catholic magisterium (Pope and bishops in communion with Him). God the Holy Spirit is God almighty… who is far superior then religious men. When time permits, I look forward to our disucssions,…that will help us both grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ together…to the praise of His glorious grace.

Don’t be silly. The Holy Spirit is God and not the ‘vicar’ of anything.

 

[ncgolf]

Don’t be silly. The Holy Spirit is God and not the ‘vicar’ of anything.

Don’t be silly. The Holy Spirit is God and not the ‘vicar’ of anything.

How in the world does anyone get to 14,000 + posts … I feel like I worked my tail off to get to 555.

See you’re from Metro New York … my inlaws live in Westchester County … originally they lived in the Bronx.

I upped my count and didnt say a thing.

 

[guanophore]

We cannot gloss over Scriptures that does not fit with our presuppositions. That is called Scripture twisting which leads to wrong conclusions. The Mormon Christians are very good at Scripture twisting.

Yes. And it greatly saddens me how the reformers have twisted the sacred word of God over the past 500 years.

Just let God speak through the Scriptures without personal remarks like above that don’t help at all.

I fail to discern much of a difference in these comments. Do you find it helpful to the Bible study to accuse Mormons (I am surprised you would call them Christians) of twisting scripture and arriving at wrong conclusions?

It certainly looks hypocritical to me.

Of course I disagree with your understanding. Here is the Scripture that you paraphrased. Nicodemus did not understand the teaching of Jesus that you must be born again before you can even see the kingdom of God. How can you get baptismal regeneration from the ministry and teaching of John the Baptist?

John preached about the Kingdom of heaven. Hearts are opened by hearing the Word.

The obdedient act of being baptized is an outward sign of the inward reality of being born from above.

This is what you have been taught to believe, but this is not the Apostles’ teaching.

How else can you obey the command of Christ to be baptised? The Scripture clearly teaches in Romans 8 that those in the flesh cannot please God. Did you obey God to be baptised by the power of the Spirit and being united to Christ? John 15 teaches that apart from Christ we can do nothing.Or, are you trying to say that while still dead in your sins and trespasses, being in the flesh and united to Adam, you were able to obey the command to be baptised to be the cause of your regeneration? You cannot will yourself to a new life in Christ. It is an act of God.

You have misunderstood the Apostolic teaching. You will not be able to reconcile this soteriology with the experience of Cornelius.

This rendering represents a deficient understanding of the fallen nature of man.

Do you get your theology from the Holy Bible alone or through the Holy Bible and Sacred Tradition.

Scripture was not written to be a systematic theology. We all interpret it through our filters. Reformed readers interpret through a Reformed lens. Persons of Apostolic faiths interpret according to the Sacred Tradition. Since scripture is the product of Sacred Tradition, it seems to make sense to us to interpret in in the light of what those believed who wrote it.

Do you see the Roman Catholic dilemma in trying to discern spiritual truth?

The challenge to all human beings to discern spiritual truth is not “Roman”. God has a solution for this “dilemma” for all of us. He sent His son, who is the fullness of His truth.

BTW… your quote from G.K. Chesterton is not even considered Sacred Tradition. It’s just an opinion.

Indeed, but a pious and wise opinion.

 

[Reformed]

Don’t be silly. The Holy Spirit is God and not the ‘vicar’ of anything.

Doesn’t vicar mean Christ’s representative here on earth? Didn’t Jesus tell us that we would not be orphans when He ascended to the Father, and He promised that He would send us a helper? The Spirit is to remind us of all things taught by Christ. The Spirit’s ministry is to illuminate truth to our minds and hearts through the Scriptures. The ministry of the Spirit is to transform us to the image of Christ…to the praise and glory of God alone. It sure seems the Catholic magisterium is trying to replace God the Holy Spirit in His role of the process of salvation of redeemed sinners who have been purchased by the blood of Christ (full atonement). Salvation is the role of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God dwells in true believers in Jesus Christ. That kind of bumps the role of the Roman Catholic Church out of the picture as being the main instrument of salvation of wretched sinners like me and you.