Jews and Traditional Catholics

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The human Christ was a devout Jew, was raised a devout Jew, remained a devout Jew, observed all the Jewish festivals and Holy Days. Offered sacrifices , lived the letter of the law. There can be no disputing that.
 
Jesus did not need baptism. And did it as an example.

Your other points I think require a Theologian. Was the Childhood and ministering Christ a completed or fulfilled Jew as per Catholicism, and then was Mary? Were the Apostles? What about Joseph.

lets tag @CRM_Brother He seems to be a very knowledgeable person on Catholic matters.
 
I am not disputing that at all, I am discussing Low Christology
 
If His Passion is the start of catholicism, then He was a devout Jew before this, right, His childhood and ministry up to the Passion, if that is your argument.
 
Its probably best you google the pre 1960’s prayer on Good Fridays. One of the fruits of Vatican II was a shift in Catholic views in this respect.
The prayer asked God to open the hearts of the Jewish people to the divinity of Christ.
 
Its probably best you google the pre 1960’s prayer on Good Fridays. One of the fruits of Vatican II was a shift in Catholic views in this respect.
Ok I found it. I nearly forgot about this. The shift as you put it was unfortunate. The conversion of the Jews was at the heart of the prayer. Now the new prayer doesn’t even hint at their conversion which is disheartening.

It truly was a fruit of Vatican II and one that I wish we could undo.
 
Hello all,

I think we have made a few errors along the way in this discussion about Christ and the Church that we need to clear up.

First, Christ was not baptized as Catholics are. Christ experienced the baptism (bathing) of Jewish purification. The call for personal repentance which John preached was unique, but the practice was already in use by the Essene semi-monastic communities such as Qumran. Christ transformed the rite and the commanded its use. John 4:2 is very explicit that all baptism done amongst the community of believers was done by and for his disciples. He never received a Christian Baptism (he didn’t need one) nor did he ever personally baptize anyone.

Christ was never sealed by the Holy Spirit in the way Catholics are. Yes, the Holy Spirit descended upon Christ at his Baptism, but it was an inherent part of the revelation of his sonship which involved the Holy Spirit. You cannot recognize the Father-Son relationship of the Trinity without the Holy Spirit passing between them. There is no indelible character which was impressed upon Christ’s soul, as the Catholic soul is so changed at Confirmation. Nor did he directly impress this character upon those in the upper room. It was at Pentecost when the Holy Spirit impressed himself upon the hearts of those in the upper room. Christ breathing upon the Apostles is a separate event tied to the priestly ministry and confession, not a direct Confirmation

Christ’s commissioning of Apostles is unique and not seen in the Church. Note I said commissioning, not ordaining. The office of Apostle is set apart from their priestly status. They were Apostles long before they were priests. We find the Apostles commissioning in Matt. 10:1-15, Mark 3:13-9, and Luke 12-16. The priestly ordination does not come until the Last Supper in the washing of the feet (part of the Jewish ritual for ordination of priests). Even when Matthias was elected to replace Judas, he was “counted among them” not commissioned. The closest thing we even have today to being “counted among them” is the election of the Pope. Even then, he is elected to be the successor of Peter, not replacing Peter in the number of the Apostles.

Yes, the Church follows Christ, the perfect Jew, but Catholicism is not perfect Judaism. It is much more than that. Judaism was focused upon a racial covenant and had strict boundaries. Perfect Judaism was strict adherence to the covenant. Catholicism is so much more than that, for we have both the old covenant and the new. One of my old professors used to say, “To be a good Catholic, you must first be a good Jew.” There is, however, a caveat to that. To be a good Jew, you cannot first be a good Catholic.

I think we are falling into the trap of classifying the source of something as the thing which proceeds from it. Catholicism flowed forth from Christ. Christ was not subject to Catholicism.

God Bless,
Br. Ben, CRM
 
Thank you Brother Ben, there is a lot there to reflect on, as always.
 
How was it not nice to ask God to open the hearts of the Jews (or anyone else) to Christ? It was a prayer that acknowledge the Truth of the Church, and a desire to share that truth with our elders in faith.
 
The wording was very disrespectful. The term used was ‘perfidis’ (faithless) commonly translated as ‘perfidious’ (deceitful and untrustworthy).
 
Didn’t Pope Pius XII declare that the translation was “faithless”, as in they aren’t of the true faith, then Pope Johhn XXIII removed the word entirely? This was pre-Vatican III.
 
In the fall of 2007, my parents & I were visiting family. The topic of the Good Friday prayer came up, and I said that he was under a lot of pressure to change it. My aunt - a very devout Russian Orthodox woman - pounded the table and shouted: “He had no right to do that!!!”
 
Isn’t the person in your avatar is a German? Holy Roman Empire? LPÖ?
 
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Jesus called Peter Satan for opposing His will too. Jesus is describing an opposition to the divine will as Satanic, not a people, but a behavior by those who have already heard the fullness of the Gospel.
 
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