Kujo313's Assertions About Catholic Marian Beliefs (Isis!?...Goddess!?)

[montanaman]

kujo313:

Not fictional. Fact. You can’t speak for ALL the Catholics, but I can speak for what I saw. Those are the ones who need help.

Even if I were to believe your subjective impressions, so what? The Church explicitly condemns idolatry, and these Mariolators would be heretics.

I know several co-habitating, fornicating, drunken Protestants. Does that mean they all endorse fornication and drunkenness? Of course not, so please keep your double standards to yourself.

 

[RyanL]

kujo313:

I don’t see John calling himself anything other than “Christian” after all he been through.

If you want to get into an argument about it, this is an argument from silence, which is a logical fallacy. I, however, don’t want to argue this point.

I bet Iggy called himself a “Christian”, too. That word “catholic” has been blown way out of proportion.

I call myself a “Christian”, just like “Iggy”. Does that mean I’m not Catholic? Same thing with St. John. Does that mean that “Iggy” wasn’t Catholic? I would highly doubt that.

Also, that’s a pretty funny play on words - “catholic” (which means universal, or all encompassing) being “blown…out of proportion”. Was that intentional? If so, you’re far more clever than I suspected! Well done!

All of that aside - did you re-read the quote by St. Louis de Montfort? Do you agree that it’s a Catholic teaching?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[kujo313]

RyanL:

Nope.

Does that answer your question? I didn’t think so. Maybe this will:

God Bless,
RyanL

I thought Jesus got His sinless nature from His Father’s side of the family. From His mother’s side, he got flesh that could be beaten, scorged and spit upon. But with it He could also touch mankind and heal.
From His Father’s side, He could redeem all mankind and take us to His Father’s House.
From His mother’s side, He could be born as one of us in order to show us the right Way to our Father.
Jesus sinless: from His Father’s side.
(ever marvel at the thought that a mother and her children can have different blood types? All that time in her womb and it can be that way. Praise God!)
Jesus Christ: 100% human, 100% Devine.

 

[RyanL]

kujo313:

I thought Jesus got His sinless nature from His Father’s side of the family. From His mother’s side, he got flesh that could be beaten, scorged and spit upon. But with it He could also touch mankind and heal…
Jesus Christ: 100% human, 100% Devine.

Sounds good enough to me!

By the way - did you re-read the quote by St. Louis de Montfort? Do you agree that it’s a Catholic teaching?

So you don’t have to scroll, I’ll repost it:
St. Louis de Montfort:

With the whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since he alone can say, “I am he who is”. Consequently, this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[montanaman]

RyanL:

Sounds good enough to me!

By the way - did you re-read the quote by St. Louis de Montfort? Do you agree that it’s a Catholic teaching?

So you don’t have to scroll, I’ll repost it:

God Bless,
RyanL

Did Kujo try to say that Montfort was a Mariolator or something? Is that why you’re pressing him?

 

[RyanL]

montanaman:

Did Kujo try to say that Montfort was a Mariolator or something? Is that why you’re pressing him?

I’m pressing him because de Montfort clearly shows that Catholics do not worship Mary, that Catholics acknowledge Mary is a creation, and as such is infinitely less than God, and that Catholics know this and teach this.

His claim this whole time is that Catholics worship Mary - I’m trying to show him that he is completely mistaken. If he agreed that the Catholic Church teaches Mary worship is wrong, is heresy, and will never be permitted, then we are making progress.

Plus, I keep getting distracted by things like his Great Apostacy theory, that the early Church would never call itself Catholic, etc., etc. This helps to re-focus.

Oh, and he keeps not answering my questions - I’d feel more like it was a two way dialog if he responded.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[jpusateri]

kujo313:

I But we can see the tree and worship God. After Jesus ascended into Heaven, it is written that the disciples went to the temple and worshipped God.

RIGHT ON BROTHER!

Now you see how we view Mary. She is the masterpiece of the Divine Artist! Praise be to the Father as reflected in His creations.

If we can see the hand of the Lord in a tree, how much MORE in His free-willed creations who mirror Him so much more clearly, and who willingly conform their wills to His so that those who strive to be like Him have someone to emulate. Doing His will lets us see Him working here among us. God is so good to give us the gift of Mary.

 

[montanaman]

RyanL:

I’m pressing him because de Montfort clearly shows that Catholics do not worship Mary, that Catholics acknowledge Mary is a creation, and as such is infinitely less than God, and that Catholics know this and teach this.

His claim this whole time is that Catholics worship Mary - I’m trying to show him that he is completely mistaken. If he agreed that the Catholic Church teaches Mary worship is wrong, is heresy, and will never be permitted, then we are making progress.

Plus, I keep getting distracted by things like his Great Apostacy theory, that the early Church would never call itself Catholic, etc., etc. This helps to re-focus.

Oh, and he keeps not answering my questions - I’d feel more like it was a two way dialog if he responded.

God Bless,
RyanL

Ah. There’s no question that Kujo knows the Church teaches Mary worship is wrong. He’s had dozens of knowledgable Catholics tell him so, show him proof, etc. But he choose to bear false witness by taking his impressions of IGNORANT Catholics, considering them to be representatative of actual Catholicism, and spreading that.

In other words, he makes a conscious decision to misrepresent Catholicism.

 

[RyanL]

montanaman:

Ah. There’s no question that Kujo knows the Church teaches Mary worship is wrong…In other words, he makes a conscious decision to misrepresent Catholicism.

That’s more or less what I’m trying to establish - if he openly acknowledges what the Church actually teaches, he can’t later claim that “Catholics believe…”.

So, Kujo, is what de Montfort wrote a Catholic teaching/belief?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[montanaman]

RyanL:

That’s more or less what I’m trying to establish - if he openly acknowledges what the Church actually teaches, he can’t later claim that “Catholics believe…”.

So, Kujo, is what de Montfort wrote a Catholic teaching/belief?

God Bless,
RyanL

I think it would be immensely satisfying if he simply said “Okay, I understand that the Church teaches…” rather than saying or implying that we’re liars and idolators. I don’t care if he never agrees with the Church’s teachings–I just want him and all anti-Catholics to try to be intellectually honest for a change.

 

[Fiat]

RyanL:

That’s more or less what I’m trying to establish - if he openly acknowledges what the Church actually teaches, he can’t later claim that “Catholics believe…”.

So, Kujo, is what de Montfort wrote a Catholic teaching/belief?

God Bless,
RyanL

Dear RyanL

I am convinced that people like Kujo cannot be persuaded that we Catholics do not worship Mary until they understand that their definition of “worship” is a deviation from what worship has always been. From the beginning, worship of Yahweh has always involved sacrifice: we see this from Abel and Cain, to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, and ultimately to Christ, whose sacrifice remains the Sacrifice that we as Catholics offer to the Heavenly Father at each mass. For us as Catholics, this Sacrifice is the single most important element of worship. Although prayer and song singing and homilies or sermons can be a part of that worship process, the worship finds its fulfillment in the sacrifice.

Protestants have denied the mass, and so they have no way of entering into the Sacrifice of Christ but through some mental or emotional construct that comes to them through song singing, sermons, etc. Therefore, when they see us as Catholics using those non-sacrificial means of communing with the Saints, they are convinced that we are worshiping them.

What Protestants really need to do is understand what worship has always entailed in Judeo-Christianity, and once they find out that the sacrifice was the heart of that Worship, they will undoubtedly see that their own church services are seriously deficient.

Peace, brother.
Fiat

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Instead, concentrate on getting your name in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

The word literally translates as “scroll”. And the Bible says even if your name is in this “book”, it can be blotted out. Do you believe in OSAS?

 

[Eden]

kujo313:

Read your response again. It was beautiful. Salvation in all of that! And not ONCE was Mary mentioned. She doesn’t need to be mentioned when it comes to salvation.
Jesus gave ALL believers the power!
Some “protestant” churches, not necessarily the WHOLE denomination, agree with you. But, yet, if they aren’t calling themselves “Catholic” then I guess they’re damned to Hell?

Jesus never said “catholic” and it’s not in the Bible. But “Christian” is in the Bible.

Catholics don’t say Mary is necessary for your salvation either. It is an option there for those who want to get as many people involved in praying for them on their journey to Him.

Catholic comes from the Greek “katholikos” which means “universal”. And the word “Christians” is first used in Antioch. The Bishop of Antioch famously said:

Ignatius of Antioch was Bishop of Syria about 70-105 AD, and is one of the Apostolic Fathers of the Catholic Church. He followed St. Peter and Evodius as the third Bishop of Antioch, and served just after the time Matthew wrote his Gospel there. Tradition has it St. Peter, on his trip to Antioch to meet St. Paul [Galatians 2:11], designated Ignatius to become Bishop. St. Ignatius was the first to use the term “Catholic Church” in his Letter to the Smryneans [8:2].

***Wherever the bishop appears let the congregation be present; ***
***just as whereever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. *********

***Letter of Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrneans 8 ***

****Conclusion: Catholics were the first Christians

I know you already know that because this is about the third time we’ve visited that quote. I just posted it for the benefit of those who have not been following all of your posts.

 

[Jaypeeto3]

Why is so much time being wasted debating with this Kujo313 character? In reading all these posts it seems to me that his attitude is Dont Confuse Me with Facts, My Mind is Already Made Up.

Jaypeeto3

 

[RyanL]

Jaypeeto3:

Why is so much time being wasted debating with this Kujo313 character? In reading all these posts it seems to me that his attitude is Dont Confuse Me with Facts, My Mind is Already Made Up.

Jaypeeto3

I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me…

Luke 15:4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost until he find it?”

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Jaypeeto3]

RyanL, I like your answer to my post.
Still, it just seems that some of these fundamentalists come here just to fight, not to discuss and learn with an open mind.

Jaypeeto3

 

[Eden]

Jaypeeto3:

Why is so much time being wasted debating with this Kujo313 character? In reading all these posts it seems to me that his attitude is Dont Confuse Me with Facts, My Mind is Already Made Up.

Jaypeeto3

Good question. I am not concerned with Kujo, as only the Holy Spirit can bring conversion. Personally, I respond to his posts for the benefit of all of the anonymous guests who come here and may be interested in the Catholic faith. Kujo gives us a good opportunity to clarify what we believe for others with the same misconceptions about Catholicism but who are open to the Holy Spirit’s guidance. Kujo is also a useful tool for sharpening our knowledge of the faith for the next time we encounter some of these misconceptions out in “the real world”. So, thanks to Kujo we are all improving our knowledge and apologetics skills.

 

[JSmitty2005]

montanaman:

Was I just high, or didn’t B16 recently put a stop to the idea of making Mary “Co-Mediator?” I think this is another one of these happy little Protestant misconceptions they’ll happily believe despite the facts. Forget that they don’t understand the very idea behind co-mediator (and as is apparent from this board, fundies, you don’t), I think Benedict recently announced something, or wrote something…I don’t remember. A little help?

If it turns out my faulty memory is correct, we’ll start a new thread for the fundies here to apologize for bearing false witness.

I didn’t hear about anything like that that B16 has said. “Co-Mediator” seems to be a hybrid between the Catholic doctrines of Mary as Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix (she’s also Advocate too). Yes, these titles for Mary are already used by the Church, however, there is a push to elevate this teaching to dogma…which is whole-heartedly support!

 

[kujo313]

RyanL:

Sounds good enough to me!

By the way - did you re-read the quote by St. Louis de Montfort? Do you agree that it’s a Catholic teaching?

So you don’t have to scroll, I’ll repost it:

God Bless,
RyanL

Well, God DID use a burning bush, a pillar of fire and a pillar of smoke amongst other things. God can use what HE wants. But what HE really wants is us.

 

[kujo313]

Eden:

Good question. I am not concerned with Kujo, as only the Holy Spirit can bring conversion. Personally, I respond to his posts for the benefit of all of the anonymous guests who come here and may be interested in the Catholic faith. Kujo gives us a good opportunity to clarify what we believe for others with the same misconceptions about Catholicism but who are open to the Holy Spirit’s guidance. Kujo is also a useful tool for sharpening our knowledge of the faith for the next time we encounter some of these misconceptions out in “the real world”. So, thanks to Kujo we are all improving our knowledge and apologetics skills.

Ooo! “Don’t confuse me with facts.”

I just don’t see what so-and-so “said” in the 2nd century as a “fact”. The “fact” only lies that that perticular person existed and wrote something. We can say that they may have had contact with one of Jesus’ disciples, too. But we DO know is that they lived AFTER the disciple died. Upon the death, the person can say or do whatever he wants and won’t have the first-hand witness to correct them.
THAT’S why I trust the written, first-hand account from an actual witness of Jesus Christ. That is the safest thing to base a tradition on.