Kujo313's Assertions About Catholic Marian Beliefs (Isis!?...Goddess!?)

[kujo313]

Psalm45:9:

I’m having a very rough week, can you please pray for me?

Alrighty. “Prayed for, paid for.”

Think about this: to the believer, this is the closest to Hell we’re gonna get. To the unbeliever, this is the closest to Heaven they’re gonna get.

Peace in Christ

 

[kujo313]

Milliardo:

I hate to belabour the point, but Mary being co-mediator simply means she works with Jesus’ one mediatorship. This is nothing new; we are co-mediators with Christ as well when we pray for one another. What makes Mary’s co-mediatorship different from our co-mediatorship with Christ?

No! That’s not what is going on. I read it before. It’s true.

Is this so? If we take this to the logical conclusion then, you don’t need your pastor, since all you ever need is Jesus. Or let’s go a bit further on this point: you don’t need your congregation as well, since all you need is Jesus. So the equation is simply you and the Bible, right?

To petition our Lord, you can go by yourself. But we ALL need to belong to a local “body”.
By the way, it’s not “you and the Bible”, it’s “you and God.”
But it’s nice to have company, too, a company of believers.

 

[RyanL]

kujo313:

Alrighty. “Prayed for, paid for.”

CO-MEDIATOR!!!

You walked right into that one. Seriously - that’s exactly what this is - co-mediation - and that’s about as scary as Mary is in Catholic theology. By praying for another, you are “going between” them and Christ. Here, you are trying to obtain God’s grace (which stems from Him alone!) on behalf of another. If we’re lucky, Mary’s response to our petitions is the exact same as yours - only with Mary, we’re more likely to have our prayers answered (Jas 5:16 “The prayer of a righteous man availeth much”, and who is more righteous: you or Mary, who looks on God face to face in heaven and is more intimate with Jesus than we could ever be?).

So…it seems your problem isn’t with co-mediation (as you are a co-mediator, too), but rather whether or not Mary can hear our prayers. If she can, would you agree that she could do just as much as you can?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[kujo313]

CO-MEDIATOR!!!

You walked right into that one. Seriously - that’s exactly what this is - co-mediation - and that’s about as scary as Mary is in Catholic theology. By praying for another, you are “going between” them and Christ. Here, you are trying to obtain God’s grace (which stems from Him alone!) on behalf of another. If we’re lucky, Mary’s response to our petitions is the exact same as yours - only with Mary, we’re more likely to have our prayers answered (Jas 5:16 “The prayer of a righteous man availeth much”, and who is more righteous: you or Mary, who looks on God face to face in heaven and is more intimate with Jesus than we could ever be?).

So…it seems your problem isn’t with co-mediation (as you are a co-mediator, too), but rather whether or not Mary can hear our prayers. If she can, would you agree that she could do just as much as you can?

God Bless,
RyanL

No! I saw it coming.

The Bible says clearly that we should pray for one another, edify and exhort. YOU, yes you, can go to God by yourself in the way that Jesus taught us to pray. You didn’t have to ask me to pray for you at all. But you wanted it, and you did it out the wickedness of your heart.
You seek to hurt me. I seek to save you.
You treat Mary like a deity, a “spiritual being”. Jesus, being our Example, IS the way we should go.
“Co-Mediator” (capital M) will mean that the pope will give to praying in the name of Mary instead of Jesus, if you want to.

Dangerous times are here.

Celebrate your Mass in your temple AND away from it, but put the center of your focus only on Jesus. Countless times He points towards Himself just as the believers who followed Him did. We should ALL do just that.
John the Baptist, “He must increase while I must decrease.”
We must encourage others to increase Jesus while decreasing themselves and others. If we see them elevating another, we must intervene.

 

[MrS]

kujo313:

You seek to hurt me. I seek to save you.

“He must increase while I must decrease.”

./QUOTE

NO,… we only attempt to inform you. You can’t save us.

Yes He must increase… and our decrease must include Him at the center, He Who has given us numerous means to reach Him more fully.

Ask a protestant to give up his worship center, his hymnal, his bible, his prayer gatherings, … and he might say no, he needs or uses them to get closer to the Lord.

Same with Catholics… we just have more of those things… all from and through the Grace of God… not lost because of the selective choosing of men who unknowingly treat Christianity as a cafeteria style religion… take what you like for the main course, take what you understand as dessert…

Unfortunatly you are missing the main course, and you have no idea what wonderful things are there for “dessert”.

 

[montanaman]

“Co-Mediator” (capital M) will mean that the pope will give to praying in the name of Mary instead of Jesus, if you want to.

And down the rabbit hole we go…

 

[RyanL]

kujo313:

The Bible says clearly that we should pray for one another, edify and exhort.

I agree.

YOU, yes you, can go to God by yourself in the way that Jesus taught us to pray.

I agree.

You didn’t have to ask me to pray for you at all.

I agree.

But you wanted it, and you did it out the wickedness of your heart.

(1) I didn’t ask.
(2) Please don’t judge my heart - that is a matter for God, not you.
(3) My response was meant to be more light-hearted than anything else; I apologize if you didn’t take it that way.

You seek to hurt me. I seek to save you.

Again, please don’t judge my motives, as our motives are the same - we are both seeking to bring the Kingdom of God to the other. I appreciate your concern and love for me, please understand that I mean the same in return.

You treat Mary like a deity, a “spiritual being”.

Did you read my first post on this thread (the Protestant/Catholic quote game)? Did you read what St. Louis de Montfort wrote? Would you please re-read it? Several popes have praised this work as authentic Catholic teaching, so it would be nice if you agreed with the popes that this was, in fact, a Catholic understanding.

Jesus, being our Example, IS the way we should go.

I agree! Jesus is Lord and Savior unlike all others, and we should worship no one other than God! To do otherwise would be to sin against the 1st Commandment.

Believe me, if Catholics actually taught what you accuse, I would be the first to leave.

“Co-Mediator” (capital M) will mean that the pope will give to praying in the name of Mary instead of Jesus, if you want to.

Is that actually what it would mean? Could you please provide a source? Everything I’ve ever read on it as a Catholic has said that the Church condemns the very thought of worshipping anyone other than God.

Dangerous times are here.

I agree.

Celebrate your Mass in your temple AND away from it, but put the center of your focus only on Jesus.

I agree!

Countless times He points towards Himself just as the believers who followed Him did. We should ALL do just that.
John the Baptist, “He must increase while I must decrease.”

Bible trivia time - what was the last thing Mary was recorded as saying in the New Testament? I would assert it is one of the most profound teachings in the Bible.

If we see them elevating another, we must intervene.

I disagree - we are to honor those whom God has honored, respect those whom God has commanded us to respect, lift eachother up as Christians, and worship no one other than God.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

By the way, Catholics will NEVER say “in Mary’s name we pray,” no matter what title is officially ascribed to her. It is through Him, with Him, and in Him that we pray - don’t forget that it was the Catholic Church who created the creeds.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[kujo313]

MrS:

kujo313:

You seek to hurt me. I seek to save you.

“He must increase while I must decrease.”

.

Please don’t really judge me until you’ve come to where I worship.

1 Peter 2
2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

Got off the “bottle” years ago and I am ready today to have dessert.
The “cafeteria” includes picking and choosing which parables are to be taken literally and which are not.

 

[kujo313]

RyanL:

By the way, Catholics will NEVER say “in Mary’s name we pray,” no matter what title is officially ascribed to her. It is through Him, with Him, and in Him that we pray - don’t forget that it was the Catholic Church who created the creeds.

God Bless,
RyanL

“Apostle’s Creed” as I remember it titled. It wasn’t around until the 3rd century, I think. The apostles may have lived by that when they was walking the earth.
But back then, they went by “Christians”. They wasn’t around to defend the name when it was changed.
Myself, no matter what congregation I stay with, I prefer “Christian”.

 

[kujo313]

RyanL:

By the way, Catholics will NEVER say “in Mary’s name we pray,” no matter what title is officially ascribed to her. It is through Him, with Him, and in Him that we pray - don’t forget that it was the Catholic Church who created the creeds.

God Bless,
RyanL

Very true. You never say that.

 

[montanaman]

Was I just high, or didn’t B16 recently put a stop to the idea of making Mary “Co-Mediator?” I think this is another one of these happy little Protestant misconceptions they’ll happily believe despite the facts. Forget that they don’t understand the very idea behind co-mediator (and as is apparent from this board, fundies, you don’t), I think Benedict recently announced something, or wrote something…I don’t remember. A little help?

If it turns out my faulty memory is correct, we’ll start a new thread for the fundies here to apologize for bearing false witness.

 

[montanaman]

kujo313:

Very true. You never say that.

I’ve never heard a Catholic say it. The Mariolator is a product of anti-Catholic mythology perpetuated by those who will gleefully accept a lie as long as it smears their ideological opponents.

 

[NonDenom]

There is no man made tradition in this…this is scriptural.

"The angel Gabriel said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you” (Luke 1:28). The phrase “full of grace” is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, “full of grace,” is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of “highly favored daughter.” Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for “daughter”). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning “to fill or endow with grace.” Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence."

Hi All
This is one area that I feel that Cathlics realy miss the boat.
Catholics assert that Mary had to be sinnless in order to cary Jesus in her womb, “The ark of the covenant”. I think that the reasoning for this is that she could not be tainted with sin in order to carry Jesus, am I correct on this?
In Him and Only Him.

 

[kujo313]

montanaman:

Was I just high, or didn’t B16 recently put a stop to the idea of making Mary “Co-Mediator?” I think this is another one of these happy little Protestant misconceptions they’ll happily believe despite the facts. Forget that they don’t understand the very idea behind co-mediator (and as is apparent from this board, fundies, you don’t), I think Benedict recently announced something, or wrote something…I don’t remember. A little help?

If it turns out my faulty memory is correct, we’ll start a new thread for the fundies here to apologize for bearing false witness.

It’s on his desk. Left over from JPII. That’s why there’s this urgency with many Protestants.

I don’t know about everybody who reads this thread, but I’d rather be praising and worshipping the Lord right now.

 

[montanaman]

kujo313:

It’s on his desk. Left over from JPII. That’s why there’s this urgency with many Protestants.

I don’t know about everybody who reads this thread, but I’d rather be praising and worshipping the Lord right now.

Then please, go do so. Ask him for understanding, because you’re still creating this fictional situation where Catholics choose between Mary or Jesus.

 

[RyanL]

kujo313:

But back then, they went by “Christians”.

Really? It seems that Ignatius of Antioch thought otherwise:
“Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church” (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2)
That was written in 107 AD. You remember Ignatius, right? He’s the guy ordained by St. John (writer of the Gospel, the Epistles, and Revelations). What do you think Ignatius would have called himself? Oh, and could you please tell me when St. John wrote Revelations?

They wasn’t around to defend the name when it was changed.

Are you saying that Christianity wasn’t around in the 3rd Century?!? Are you teaching a Great Apostacy of the faith, like the Mormons do?

Myself, no matter what congregation I stay with, I prefer “Christian”.

I use both to describe myself.

You know, you’re not really answering any of my posts. I make assertions and you seem to breeze by them. No matter so far, but could you please answer me this:

Did you re-read St. Louis de Montfort’s quote that I posted? Do you agree that this is a Catholic teaching?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[kujo313]

montanaman:

Then please, go do so. Ask him for understanding, because you’re still creating this fictional situation where Catholics choose between Mary or Jesus.

Not fictional. Fact. You can’t speak for ALL the Catholics, but I can speak for what I saw. Those are the ones who need help.

 

[RyanL]

NonDenom:

This is one area that I feel that Cathlics realy miss the boat.Catholics assert that Mary had to be sinnless in order to cary Jesus in her womb, “The ark of the covenant”. I think that the reasoning for this is that she could not be tainted with sin in order to carry Jesus, am I correct on this?

Nope.

Does that answer your question? I didn’t think so. Maybe this will:

Q: I don’t see why Mary had to be sinless to pass on a sinless human nature to Christ.

A: Mary’s sinlessness derives from the fact that she is the human vessel through which God himself became man. It was from her flesh that Christ received his human nature.

Because Christ is God, it’s fitting that he took his humanity from a sinless human nature, although it wasn’t strictly necessary that his mother be sinless for him to receive from her a sinless human nature. God could have done it another way.

Nor was it absolutely necessary that Christ be born of a virgin. He could have come into the world via the normal route. The fact that Mary was a virgin and conceived Christ isn’t so much a statement about Mary as it is about the dignity of the child she carried in her womb.

Likewise (and ultimately) the Immaculate Conception isn’t so much a statement about the dignity of Mary as it is a statement about the dignity of her son. It points out who he is–God incarnate.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[kujo313]

RyanL:

Really? It seems that Ignatius of Antioch thought otherwise:
“Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church” (To the Smyrnaeans 8:2)
That was written in 107 AD. You remember Ignatius, right? He’s the guy ordained by St. John (writer of the Gospel, the Epistles, and Revelations). What do you think Ignatius would have called himself?

Are you saying that Christianity wasn’t around in the 3rd Century?!? Are you teaching a Great Apostacy of the faith, like the Mormons do?

I use both to describe myself.

You know, you’re not really answering any of my posts. I make assertions and you seem to breeze by them. No matter so far, but could you please answer me this:

Did you re-read St. Louis de Montfort’s quote that I posted? Do you agree that this is a Catholic teaching?

God Bless,
RyanL

I don’t see John calling himself anything other than “Christian” after all he been through. “Christian”, follower and believer that Jesus was and is the Christ, the “Annointed One”.
I bet Iggy called himself a “Christian”, too. That word “catholic” has been blown way out of proportion.