Kujo313's Assertions About Catholic Marian Beliefs (Isis!?...Goddess!?)

[malachi_a_serva]

JSmitty2005:

I don’t think that a Catholic can oppose praying to the saints even though they are free not to do so themselves. To oppose praying to the saints is to imply a rejection of the Communion of Saints which is Church doctrine. (see the Apostles’ Creed for details )

One thing I have come to realize just over the past few weeks. When I would get answers I would accept them as being “Catholic correct”. However, over the last few weeks I have had replies were posters are just providing “their opinion” (and not that they shouldn’t). I had just previously taken responses as being the Catholic Church view period.

I learned not to though.

 

[JSmitty2005]

malachi_a_serva:

over the last few weeks I have had replies were posters are just providing “their opinion” (and not that they shouldn’t). I had just previously taken responses as being the Catholic Church view period.

I learned not to though.

That’s a good thing. It’s because of “opinions” that people believe that the Catholic Church teaches that you can work your way to heaven or that Catholics worship Mary. :bigyikes:

 

[JSmitty2005]

malachi_a_serva:

Gotcha. One could then decline the penance.

How many declines do you get? (not trying to be sassy).

But why would you decline? Is it because you oppose the practice of praying to the saints? If so, I don’t think that that person can be in good standing with the Church’s teaching on the Communion of Saints.

 

[Eden]

JSmitty2005:

I don’t think that a Catholic can oppose praying to the saints even though they are free not to do so themselves. To oppose praying to the saints is to imply a rejection of the Communion of Saints which is Church doctrine. (see the Apostles’ Creed for details )

Opposing Church teaching on the validity of the Communion of the Saints is one thing. But if someone chose never to ask for the intercession of a saint, they are free to do that theoretically. Although I don’t know why a Catholic would choose not to since the prayers of the saints are beneficial.

 

[JSmitty2005]

Eden:

Opposing Church teaching on the validity of the Communion of the Saints is one thing. But if someone chose never to ask for the intercession of a saint, they are free to do that theoretically. Although I don’t know why a Catholic would choose not to since the prayers of the saints are beneficial.

Exactly.

 

[jim1130]

Eden:

Luke 11:28 - when Jesus says, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it,” some Protestants also call this a rebuke of Mary. Again, to the contrary, Jesus is exalting Mary by emphasizing her obedience to God’s word as being more critical than her biological role of mother. This affirms Luke 1:48.

Luke 11:28 - also, the Greek word for “rather” is “menounge.” Menounge really means “Yes, but in addition,” or “Further.” Thus, Jesus is saying, yes my mother is blessed indeed, but further blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. Jesus is encouraging others to follow Mary’s example in order to build up His kingdom.

Luke 11:27-28 - finally, Jesus is the one being complimented, not Mary. Therefore, Jesus is refocusing the attention from Him to others who obey the word of God. If He is refocusing the attention away from Him to others, His comment cannot be a rebuke of Mary His mother.

www.scripturecatholic.com

Peace.

And to re-emphasize the importance of this accurate translation and interpretation of Luke 11:27-28…

After Jesus, age 12, was found by Mary and Joseph in the Temple:

Luke 2:51. “And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was obedient to them. And his mother kept all these words in her heart.”

I think that it is important to note that the verse did not read “And he went down with them and came to Nazareth and was obedient to them…until Luke 11:27-28, at which point he disregarded his mother.”

Peace.

 

[SemperJase]

malachi_a_serva:

Or perhaps I am misunderstanding. One would have to recite the Hail Mary, but that does not mean they have a relationship with her? Then if that is the case it would seem no only pointless to recitie the Hail Mary, but disrespectfull as it would not be sincere or from the heart.

I’ve only been a catholic for a year and can’t say as I’m an expert at confession. But I’ve yet to be told to recite a single Hail Mary as penance.

Not saying it doesn’t happen. Just hasn’t happened to me.

 

[luvthelight]

so break down of what we’ve learned so far :::

• WE (Catholics) DO NOT WORSHIP MARY
• Jesus is the ONLY way, the truth, the light
• mary is our model as a human, she accepted God’s will above all else - having a baby outside of wedlock would cast you out of society - she accepted, we must do the same, even if our beliefs dont exactly make us ‘popular’
• the hail mary comes FROM the bible!
• the early christians held mary in very high esteem
• Jesus made His first miracle at her request - obviously her requests are powerful - therefore we ask her to pray FOR us, the bible tells us that the prayers of those in heaven are especially powerful - the prayers of His own MOTHER must be very much so
• mary will NOT give us salvation, but we need to model our lives after hers, including being humble, obediant, loving, and God - fearing, and asking for her help will not hurt
• GOD CHOSE mary - she did not choose her role in salvation - carrying Jesus those nine months and raising Him - but for ALL the women, in ALL the time, He chose HER. also she is addressed as blessed among women. i remember in a past argument over mary, someone who had a good understanding of aramaic said - in aramaic you cannot say, you are the tallest, you say - you are tall amoung us. therefore, to say, you are blessed among women really means - you are hte most blessed of ALL women. If she is significant enough for God to choose her - well then who are we to denounce her??

 

[MrS]

kujo313:

I put the word “wine” in quotations because the “wine” of back then is not the “wine” that it is now. Some parishes use grape juice, some use different wines (not unless there’s an “Official Wine of the Roman Catholic Church”. You don’t see THAT on any TV commercial).
As far as John 6 goes, please use the verses you mean to quote. Don’t just skim over it.
In verses 60-69, Jesus clearly explains what He said earlier. He was talking about Himself and not bread.

“Yes God is everywhere… but we don’t go outside, fall down, and worship a tree.”

True. But we can see the tree and worship God. After Jesus ascended into Heaven, it is written that the disciples went to the temple and worshipped God.

Seeing is not necessarily believing… read the events of the Sunday nights after the Resurrection… and doubting St. Thomas who, when he SAW the Lord, still doubted…’

yet John the Baptist, who could not see, lept in the womb for joy in the presence of the Lord.

 

[RyanL]

Hi Kujo!

Since your last post on wine was a bit off topic, I though I’d jump in with a little game to get us back on track. The game is I’ll put in a quote, and you have to guess if it was written by a Protestant or a Catholic.

Ready? OK…

With the whole Church I acknowledge that Mary, being a mere creature fashioned by the hands of God is, compared to his infinite majesty, less than an atom, or rather is simply nothing, since he alone can say, “I am he who is”. Consequently, this great Lord, who is ever independent and self-sufficient, never had and does not now have any absolute need of the Blessed Virgin for the accomplishment of his will and the manifestation of his glory. To do all things he has only to will them.

What do you think? That’s right! A Catholic! St. Louis de Montfort, to be precise - you know, the guy who wrote True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin…

Ready for another?

I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.

What do you think? That’s right - a Protestant! That was Zwingli, one of the “Fathers of the Reformation”! Well done!

Another?

Let us be one with Jesus… let us make our life a continual sacrifice, a martyrdom of love to console Jesus. May all moments of our life be for Him alone. We have only one task during the night of our present life - to love Jesus.

Did you say St. Therese, Doctor of the Church? Man, you’re pretty good at this! I though it would be harder to fool you.

Maybe just one more…

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.
…
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.

I knew I could stump you! That was Martin Luther!

Hey, 3 out of 4 isn’t bad.

BTW, if it in any way surprises you that the Reformers (who invented the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, so you can rest assured that they believe it) could love Mary that much and the Catholics could praise Jesus above all other names, you might not have as good a grasp on this whole “theology” thing as you might have thought. Just my two cents.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[MrS]

Ryan

 

[magdelaine]

kujo313:

As far as John 6 goes, please use the verses you mean to quote. Don’t just skim over it.
In verses 60-69, Jesus clearly explains what He said earlier. He was talking about Himself and not bread.

Oh my goodness, you need to take your own advice! John 6 60-69:

Many Disciples Desert Jesus

60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.”

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”

What is “this” and “it” Jesus is referring to? Directly before this it says:

53Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Jesus knew this was a hard teaching! That’s why it’s called “Many Disciples Desert Jesus”. As you would have us do too, apparently.

Original sin is the sin of pride, of the ego of man that thinks he can tell for himself what is right and what is wrong, what is true and what is untrue. It is the only thing that can explain how you can read the above chapter of the Bible and not understand the Eucharist. You need to spend some time in quiet reflection, my friend.

 

[MrS]

John 6:66 After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.

The placing of the chapter and verse numbers may not be divine…but they sure are ironic at the very least.

Anyone who draws away from the Church …no longer goes about with Him.

 

[magdelaine]

Church Militant:

Sorry…no faithful Catholic parish will use grape juice. That is just plain not allowed.

This thread is about your messed up concepts of our Marian beliefs…not the Eucharist.HERE’S THE THREAD for the Eucharist. Take it over there to get into that.

There was no reason for any of you Catholics to interject the Eucharist into this thread. Please stay on topic, otherwise you do teh same things that the a-Cs do to us when they use that scattergun approach to posting. We’re better than that…
Pax vobiscum,

Ahh, sorry. I got stuck at the end of the first page without realizing there was a second…back to reading, I guess.

 

[RyanL]

Ryan

Just thought I might pipe in and let folks know (1) I’m still around and (2) my wife will ask if she needs more people than me throwing Catholic dogma at her. I think she just wanted us to watch our charity level. (Did I just fail in my last post? It was meant to be funny…)

Oh, and (3) Kujo can’t find a single person (except, perhaps, Helvidius) in the first 1500 years of Christianity who thinks what he does about Mary. You would think that if the Bible taught what Kujo thinks it does, one of the “Reformers”, at least, would have seen it; but nope, they all loved Our Lady and never taught that Jesus disrespected her.

Oh, well, I suppose they just weren’t as good Scripture scholars as Kujo is…right, Kujo? I mean, you are certain that you’re correct, aren’t you? I’d want to be infallibly certain before I started 'dissin the Mother of my Savior…I could scarcely imagine what He would have to say to me if I disrespected His mother without being infallibly certain that I was right…

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[MrS]

RyanL:

I’d want to be infallibly certain before I started 'dissin the Mother of my Savior…I could scarcely imagine what He would have to say to me if I disrespected His mother without being infallibly certain that I was right…

God Bless,
RyanL

your Mother told you what I said about Her ???http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_25.gif

 

[DianJo]

Where’s Kujo? He has’t been back to answer any of the great posts y’all have posted.

Y’all are doing such a great job, I really don’t have much to add at this point - it’s been a ball reading Kujo’s posts and everyone trying to get him to understand what we actually believe. It’s such a shame he is so blind, poor thing.

Keep up the good work everybody!

 

[Nicene]

No. Jesus is in EVERYTHING. Through Him, all things were made. He’s not just in bread and “wine”

Actually this is Paganism (pantheism). By stating that God is in everything you have defined God as nature, not that God created the world but that the world is God. Catholics (and real christians) don’t believe God is in a blade of grass, a tree, or a flower or an animal or anything else. This is true idolatry, worshiping things of wood, metal, stone etc which breaks the first commandment worshiping something other than God because you believe it contains God. Paul tells us that God is everywhere, but rebukes people who believe as you do that He is in anything.

The eucharist doesn’t contain Christ (thoroughly protestant conception), it is Christ: body, soul, blood, and divinity. How is it that when I first read the bible I recognized that, yet you didn’t discern that? Does that explain why you walked away and went into Pantheism?

It appears (fruit) that your religion is the worship of Osiris, Ra, Horus, Dionysus and Gaia ?

Your religion’s rules?

Nope, Christs and Gods. I would suggest reading the Pastoral epistles, Corinthians, and the 4 Gospels and Hebrews.

me: I don’t believe God asked you to carry the Son of God and man. Further you exalting yourself by insinuating such.
you: The Holy Spirit lives in all believers. We carry the Gospel where ever we go. We can do more because Jesus went to our Father.
All believers are exalted.We can do more because Jesus went to our Father.
All believers are exalted.

Sadly mistaken, Go read what Jesus says about those who exalt themselves. As well christians bring Christs word to the world, but they will never rebirth the Word into the world. We can only be reborn in Him ourselves (of Water and Spirit).

What records? Where can I read it? “Executed?” Was caniballism against the law? We’re supposed to obey the law. (Caniballism is against the law in the United States)

I would suggest reading Minucius Felix, Tertulian, Letters from Pliny to Tacitus and Tacitus’ replies. Among the things Christians were accused of were: cannibalism, disruption of business, incest (debauchery from love feasts) antifamily actions, poverty, atheism (for not worshiping the emperors)lack of patriotism ,antisocial behavior, causing disasters (Nero bleamed the fire of Rome on Christians-which he set himself)

Here is a fairly decent paper on it: Roman Persecution

cont…

 

[Nicene]

me: We aren’t the ones asserting she was a sinner for having a flow of blood and causing Jesus to be a sinner for touching her during that time by nursing at his mothers breast. Who is being disrespectful?

you: Jesus being perfect is part of the miracle of the virgin birth. The virgin birth was a sign for people looking for signs leading to the Messiah. Jesus was perfect on earth from the moment of conception to the cross.
Jesus was not just a “sign”. He was, and still is, our Messiah! All messianic prophesies are about Him.
I’m not being disrespectful, I’m just centered on Jesus and focused on Him. Nowhere does He tell me to take a closer look at the signs. He simply tells us in His Word that we can go directly to the Father. We don’t have to go through anybody or anything to get to Him.

I appreciate you trying to avoid the painfully obvious given your position concerning Leviticus and Mary but diversion doesn’t help your case.

Jesus touched Mary after his birth, and according to your citing and interpretation of Leviticus, He is a sinner. We aren’t the ones who brought Leviticus into it, you are, to call Mary a sinner with your citation of Luke 2:22. Mary sinned (acording to you) because of her flow of blood, Jesus sinned (according to you) by application of the same levitican passages which apparently in your religion still apply.

It’s interesting to note that when Luke references Leviticus he has a completely different take on it than you: (as it is written in the law of the Lord, “Every male that opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord”)

He uses it to point to what is holy, you use it to point towards sin. What did Paul say about those who are under the law?

I only see the fruits. I ain’t speaking for all protestants or their faiths or beliefs, but Jesus taught us to pray directly to God. He never said our prayers are to include the word “mother”.

So in your religion no one went to heaven and is perfect before God, they just died? Kinda defeats the purpose of Christ dying on the cross.

When they died they ceased being christians and wanting the will of God? You prayed with them on earth when they were sinners yet now that they are with God they are no longer worthy of being prayed with, even though they are perfect in Gods eyes, yet living sinners are somehow worthier?

Apparently you reject Mary as your mother (definately don’t honor her calling her Isis), therfore according to Jewish belief, you are not part of the family. Therefore Christ cannot be your brother, nor God your Father (as you have stated pantheism above) We definately see the fruits of that from your side.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

montanaman:

Hey, who has that great Ignatius quote about Mary? The one without a date, but in which he discribed looking forward to seeing her…

It from about 400 AD - IOW, not from him.​

There are seven genuine Ignatian letters, and six which are not; the passage you have in mind is from one of the six ##