Kujo313's Assertions About Catholic Marian Beliefs (Isis!?...Goddess!?)

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Even Kujo in an earlier post said:

Exactly! That is what catholics are all about. Everything points to that, even the Hail Mary.

So his argument contradicts. We don’t know the way to Christ even though that is what mass is all about.

Now, the Mass may tell the story of Jesus, but the “Hail Mary” is centered around Mary and petetions Mary to do something for you.
I’m just following the words of Jesus and go directly to God, Himself. If somebody else wants to pray for me, that’s terrific. If somebody wants to pray WITH me, even better. They can go directly to God with their prayers for me. They don’t have to ask anybody else.
 
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kujo313:
I put the word “wine” in quotations because the “wine” of back then is not the “wine” that it is now. Some parishes use grape juice, some use different wines …
** As far as John 6 goes, please use the verses you mean to quote. Don’t just skim over it.**
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In verses 60-69, Jesus clearly explains what He said earlier. He was talking about Himself and not bread. Sorry…no faithful Catholic parish will use grape juice. That is just plain not allowed.

This thread is about your messed up concepts of our Marian beliefs…not the Eucharist.HERE’S THE THREAD for the Eucharist. Take it over there to get into that.

There was no reason for any of you Catholics to interject the Eucharist into this thread. Please stay on topic, otherwise you do teh same things that the a-Cs do to us when they use that scattergun approach to posting. We’re better than that… 🙂
Pax vobiscum,
 
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montanaman:
Now, come on. That’s a cheap shot. I’m all for the utter destruction of the poison of Protestantism, but let’s try to refrain from pop-psychology speculation about their motives. Let’s just keep using the Bible, logic and reason to do so. It’s worked perfectly so far.

No, their “sola Christus” mentality that excludes Mary from any equation comes not from Freudian problems; rather, it’s a hyper-individualistic approach to God. From this, (or because of this), their whole theology is built on rejection and rebellion. They’ve reduced everything to a couple of slogans, and when they encounter something true like Christ’s mother’s relationship to the Church, they react irrationally. Any threat to their hastily-constructed and contradictory self-referential religion causes them to have a very bad reaction.
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I’m only going to respond to this once so as to keep the thread on track.

There is a difference between the theology that Mary does not have a role in our Christian life and asserting that through the use of scripture.

It is something completely different to set about to prove your position by denigrating her and justifying the abuse by claiming that “even Jesus rebuked her”.

So, I apologize for upsetting anyone with my pop psychology. I will heed the advice of montanaman in the future and not publicly share my opinions on the extraneous motives for Mary bashers. Mea culpa.
 
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montanaman:
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No, their “sola Christus” mentality that excludes Mary from any equation comes not from Freudian problems; rather, it’s a hyper-individualistic approach to God. From this, (or because of this), their whole theology is built on rejection and rebellion. They’ve reduced everything to a couple of slogans, and when they encounter something true like Christ’s mother’s relationship to the Church, they react irrationally. Any threat to their hastily-constructed and contradictory self-referential religion causes them to have a very bad reaction.
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Peace.

I like how you stated this. Thanks. 👍

Peace.
 
RyanL's Wife:
WOW!!! And it is things like this, that really make me question whether or not to convert. Seriously, I think I am just about ready to make the leap and then I read something like this…
You guys should really think about some of the things you say and how they reflect on Catholicism on a whole. Consider who you may be turning away from Catholicism with remarks such as this.

To expound on this point, I will answer the question orionthehunter asked. – The reason I (and many of my friends) have some hostile feelings toward Mary is because we have been exposed to “some” not so correct Catholics who go a little too far. Being from South Texas, there are quite a few people (usually of Hispanic descent…nothing against Hispanics, that is just generally where I have noticed it) that do in fact go a little too far with “honoring” Mary. Obviously, this is not what the true Catholic church teaches, but how are we, as non-catholics, suppose to know this? So then when Mary is brought up, we (some protestant) do a back shuffle and get as far away as possible from the subject so as not to make the same mistake. I guess I just wish all Catholics followed all Catholic teachings. That would make conversion so much simpler. Instead there are those that pick and choose and other who are just ignorant of their own faith. So us non-catholics have no way a knowing what the Church actually believes unless we get out the CCC and do all the research ourselves. (sorry, a little bit of a tangent) But to answer your questions. I think some of us are scared of “honoring” Mary, because we have witnessed other Catholics doing much more than “just honoring her” Then overtime, that timidness develops into “bigoted, ignorant responses” I am not saying it is right or justified, just giving an example of how it might come about in some circumstances. Just my opinion.

RyanL’s Wife
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Dear RyanL’s Wife:

I respect what you are saying, but I frankly do not believe that it is Protestants’ misunderstanding of the Church’s teachings about the Blessed Mother that is the root of the problem; instead it is Protestants’ misunderstanding of what “WORSHIP” means for a Catholic. A non-Catholic may see us Catholic’s singing songs about Mary, reading books about Mary, spending time with Mary in contemplation of Our Lord, praising Mary for her faithfulness to Our Lord, etc., etc., and it is these actions which you confuse with “WORSHIP.”

I presume that you love your husband and that you love him a great deal. Do you think that the acts of love you shower and bestow on your husband interfere with your love for Jesus Christ? How, then, can similar acts of love we as Catholics bestow on Mary necessitate an interference with our worship of Christ? I’ve never been able to understand that.

Peace
Fiat
 
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kujo313:
Even Kujo in an earlier post said:

Exactly! That is what catholics are all about. Everything points to that, even the Hail Mary.

So his argument contradicts. We don’t know the way to Christ even though that is what mass is all about.

Now, the Mass may tell the story of Jesus, but the “Hail Mary” is centered around Mary and petetions Mary to do something for you.
I’m just following the words of Jesus and go directly to God, Himself. If somebody else wants to pray for me, that’s terrific. If somebody wants to pray WITH me, even better. They can go directly to God with their prayers for me. They don’t have to ask anybody else.
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Oh man, Kujo!!!
Let’s break down the Hail Mary…

Hail Mary, full of Grace- Biblical(Luke 1:28) Mary is full of God’s Grace since her conception. It is God who saves her from the stain of Original Sin, therefore, she needed a Savior like we all do. Her calling God her savior is preserved and harmonizes with this.

Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus - Biblical (Luke 1:42) Elizabeth greets Mary with this saying. Yeah…being blessed by God by carrying God in your womb…that sure qualifies as being blessed among women. And blessed of course is little God the Son growing inside her…

Holy Mary, Mother of God- Okay…let’s break it down now.
Jesus was God…
Mary was Jesus mother…
Therefore, Mary is the mother of God.
Makes sense to me. It’s not saying that Mary is the creator of God. It simply says that Mary carried God in her womb for 9 months, therefore making her His mother.

Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death…
This is about intercession prayer. We are all called to do that. The saints that have gone to Heaven before us pray for us always at the throne of God. Mary is definitely there. Praying to God for us…
Now, where do you see this prayer being ALLLL about Mary when I just mentioned Jesus and God sooooooo many times in this?
 
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Eden:
No Catholic is forced to have a relationship with her. One could go an entire lifetime without praying a rosary or requesting her intercession and would still be living in harmony with Church teachings.
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Eden:

Almost everything you said is very true, but this quoted portion I think should be revised.

Invariably, all the great saints cultivated a great devotion to the Blessed Mother. I do not think we can say that to ignore or fail to entrust ourselves to her can be said to live “in accordance with Church teachings.”

As St. Louise de Montfort put it, in the beginning of Christianity, it was necessary merely to spread the faith with the vast majority of the attention on Jesus Himself, considering the novelty of the Church.

Now that Christ’s role has been firmly established, we can safely turn to the example His mother has given us.

Posters such as the belligerent person in question should be ignored. The information is abundantly available to refute these asinine and rather blasphemous claims; if “Kujo” chooses to persist in his ignorance, it is to his grave disadvantage and to disobedience in Christ Himself (“Behold thy mother”).
 
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kujo313:
**Now, the Mass may tell the story of Jesus, but the “Hail Mary” is centered around Mary and petetions Mary to do something for you. **
I’m just following the words of Jesus and go directly to God, Himself. **If somebody else wants to pray for me, that’s terrific. If somebody wants to pray WITH me, even better. They can go directly to God with their prayers for me. ** They don’t have to ask anybody else.
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Use the quote feature KUJO! What part of MESSED up posts do you not understand? It’s easy just hit the lil button that looks like this, http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/quote.gif in the bottom right hand corner of the post that you are quoting. You can then go in and delete any irrelevent parts that you don’t want to respond to or BOLD ones that you are.

Now in response to the stuff I have bolded above…
Hail Mary
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

**You want someone to pray for you… There ya go.

You want someone to pray with for you… There ya go.**

How is that all about Mary? Looks to me like it’s all about two believers, me and the Blessed Virgin, praying to God together.

If there is excessive veneration or worship in there then I suppose that you would also tell us that the angel Gabriel and Elizabeth both went too far as well…which is patently preposterous. Here’s what I think of that.http://images.snapfish.com/346637%3B8%3Bfp33%3B>vq%3D3269>%3B68>565>WSNRCG%3D32335%3A7%3B48857vq0mrj (Caption from Star Wars IN DV voice. “I find your lack of faith disturbing.”)
 
Church Militant:
Sorry…no faithful Catholic parish will use grape juice. That is just plain not allowed.

This thread is about your messed up concepts of our Marian beliefs…not the Eucharist.HERE’S THE THREAD for the Eucharist. Take it over there to get into that.

There was no reason for any of you Catholics to interject the Eucharist into this thread. Please stay on topic, otherwise you do teh same things that the a-Cs do to us when they use that scattergun approach to posting. We’re better than that… 🙂
Pax vobiscum,
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tyvm
 
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kujo313:
**Now, the Mass may tell the story of Jesus, but the “Hail Mary” is centered around Mary and petetions Mary to do something for you. **
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I’m just following the words of Jesus and go directly to God, Himself. **If somebody else wants to pray for me, that’s terrific. If somebody wants to pray WITH me, even better. They can go directly to God with their prayers for me. ** They don’t have to ask anybody else.Use the quote feature KUJO! What part of MESSED up posts do you not understand? It’s easy just hit the lil button that looks like this, http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/quote.gif in the bottom right hand corner of the post that you are quoting. You can then go in and delete any irrelevent parts that you don’t want to respond to or BOLD ones that you are.

Now in response to the stuff I have bolded above…
Hail Mary
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

**You want someone to pray for you… There ya go.

You want someone to pray with for you… There ya go.**

How is that all about Mary? Looks to me like it’s all about two believers, me and the Blessed Virgin, praying to God together.

If there is excessive veneration or worship in there then I suppose that you would also tell us that the angel Gabriel and Elizabeth both went too far as well…which is patently preposterous. Here’s what I think of that.http://images.snapfish.com/346637%3B8%3Bfp33%3B>vq%3D3269>%3B68>565>WSNRCG%3D32335%3A7%3B48857vq0mrj (Caption from Star Wars IN DV voice. “I find your lack of faith disturbing.”)
Pax tecum, :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
Church Militant:
Use the quote feature KUJO! What part of MESSED up posts do you not understand? It’s easy just hit the lil button that looks like this, http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cak/quote.gif in the bottom right hand corner of the post that you are quoting. You can then go in and delete any irrelevent parts that you don’t want to respond to or BOLD ones that you are.

Now in response to the stuff I have bolded above…
Hail Mary
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

**You want someone to pray for you… There ya go.

You want someone to pray with for you… There ya go.**

How is that all about Mary? Looks to me like it’s all about two believers, me and the Blessed Virgin, praying to God together.

Good for you.
👍
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Eden:
No Catholic is forced to have a relationship with her. One could go an entire lifetime without praying a rosary or requesting her intercession and would still be living in harmony with Church teachings.
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Hello Eden, just wondering how one would get around your statement if they went to confession and were given “3 Hail Marys” to recite as penance?

Just came to me while reading all of these posts.

p.s. do you sleep? 😃
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Hello Eden, just wondering how one would get around your statement if they went to confession and were given “3 Hail Marys” to recite as penance?

Just came to me while reading all of these posts.

p.s. do you sleep? 😃
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It would be the same as adding a personal prayer request to a Chrisitian web-based prayer group. You ask the group to pray for you and your intention to God but you do not have a relationship with any of the people you have asked to pray for you.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
p.s. do you sleep? 😃
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St. Eric answered the first part so I’ll just answer this one.

Yes, I sleep - :eek: - not very much though as my house is full of activity from sun up until late, at least 10 or 11. I’m on Pacific time, if you are wondering. 🙂
 
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St.Eric:
It would be the same as adding a personal prayer request to a Chrisitian web-based prayer group. You ask the group to pray for you and your intention to God but you do not have a relationship with any of the people you have asked to pray for you.
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Hi ST.Eric, I was getting to more the whole point of Eden’s comments that a Catholic can have nothing to do with Mary if they chose and still be in good standing with the church. How would one get around being told to say “3 Hail Marys” after confession? Would they ask for another prayer? Or politely tell the priest they do not want to pray to Mary? Or do they have any option? If not then…
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Hello Eden, just wondering how one would get around your statement if they went to confession and were given “3 Hail Marys” to recite as penance?

Just came to me while reading all of these posts.

p.s. do you sleep? 😃
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You can ask for another penance if you don’t like/can’t do the one you’re given you know - it’s not non-negotiable.
 
Or perhaps I am misunderstanding. One would have to recite the Hail Mary, but that does not mean they have a relationship with her? Then if that is the case it would seem no only pointless to recitie the Hail Mary, but disrespectfull as it would not be sincere or from the heart.
 
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malachi_a_serva:
Hi ST.Eric, I was getting to more the whole point of Eden’s comments that a Catholic can have nothing to do with Mary if they chose and still be in good standing with the church. How would one get around being told to say “3 Hail Marys” after confession? Would they ask for another prayer? Or politely tell the priest they do not want to pray to Mary? Or do they have any option? If not then…
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I don’t think that a Catholic can oppose praying to the saints even though they are free not to do so themselves. To oppose praying to the saints is to imply a rejection of the Communion of Saints which is Church doctrine. (see the Apostles’ Creed for details 👍 )
 
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LilyM:
You can ask for another penance if you don’t like/can’t do the one you’re given you know - it’s not non-negotiable.
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Gotcha. One could then decline the penance.

How many declines do you get? (not trying to be sassy).

🙂
 
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