Latin returning to Mass

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In our used-to-be-real-laity-run parish, which is s.l.o.w.l.y being taught correctly,… we have a hard working pastor who wants to make gradual changes so as not to lose anyone.

Todays bulletin article runs two pages… subject: Latin in the Mass. titled “The Language of the Saints”

important note: Latin IN the Mass… Not the Latin Mass.

great article if the people will read it… and I found one sentence in particular to be very true:

“A person whose prayer life is stagnant or non-existant at home, will very likely not find the liturgy vibrant unless it appears to be something more like entertainment than a comtemplation of the Infinite Divine.”

You go, Father Gerald!!! No halftime entertainment for me…
 
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palmas85:
The language doesn’t matter so much to me. I just don’t understand why it means so much to you. 🙂
Okay, one more time: BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND THE VERNACULAR! IT’S THE LANGUAGE THEY SPEAK! IT’S THE LANGUAGE THEY UNDERSTAND!

I don’t know if you’re a man or a woman, so maybe this won’t help, but if you’re trying to get a date with with a good looking Italian woman, wouldn’t it be handy to be able to talk to her in Italian? If she was French, wouldn’t you like to get your unmistakeable meaning across to her in French? Or are you going to use Sanskrit? The Mass can be a method of evangelization for people, it can woo them to the Christ, Christ can woo them to Himself. He sold me on Himself that way, at least.

What you speak of are ABUSES. That is seperate from the Mass Itself, and it certainly has nothing to do with language. What if the Pauline Rite had never been abused? What if every priest everywhere had always followed the rubrics? Would there be a problem? I tend to think not, so for me, the answer is for the priests to follow the rubrics.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Darn. I was really looking forward to you explaining “begotten, not made.”

You are a constant source of disappointment to me, Kirk. :nope:
Apparently I am to an increasing number of people on these forums, perhaps I should give them up.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
No, but I think there would be a movement to retain the vernacular Mass.

Do you really think this is going to be an issue?
Since I haven’t been gifted with the charism of prophecy (and I don’t think good Cardinal Arinze has either), I can’t really say whether it will be an issue.

What I can say is the same thing I’ve said before: If you had asked the average Cardinal in 1940 if he believed that within 30 years every trace of Latin would be expunged from the majority of Masses in the Roman Rite, he would’ve laughed you to scorn.

It is impossible to predict what will happen. What seems “normative” and “entrenched” now could, in as little as a decade, seem antiquated. Many things could influence this, economic upheaval, war, reunion with the Orthodox, the fall of Communism in China, a Muslim extremist takeover of parts of Europe, an invasion of pod people from another planet, a plethora of JPII priests who demand Latin, a new generation of hierarchy not co-opted by their direct connection to Vatican II, the rise of the Antichrist…who knows what the future holds? I don’t. And if you do, please give up Wednesday’s Powerball numbers. 👋
 
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palmas85:
You know Kirk, I have never run down the Pauline Mass. I have vented on some of the grotesque things that happen at them from time to time, but I have never trashed the Mass. I suffered through years of abuses that I saw at virtually every Mass at which my good friends the Sisters of the Most Precious Blood :bigyikes: and their Liberation Theology Loving partners the Jesuits, (Big organization, I’m only speaking about a small group in South Texas) handled, but I never left the Church and stayed faithful to the Holy Father. I still attend the Pauline Mass almost every day.

The language doesn’t matter so much to me. I just don’t understand why it means so much to you. 🙂
Excuse me, but what other mass in the Latin Rite could you be disussing in wondering “why the vernacular?” if not the Pauline Mass? Is someone somewhere doing the TLM in English? Heck, I might have to go!

PS. I have personal, first hand knowledge of a Sister Adorer of the Most Precious Blood, an administrator of my former parish in New Mexico. I called her “Atila the Nun.” You’ve my sympathy.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
It becomes extremely wearing to have the Mass you love constantly denigrated, compared with ill-favor, etc. It’s kind of like dumping on a beloved grandmother. I don’t dump on other people’s grams, I don’t expect mine to be dumped on either.
To quote Rodney King “Can’t we all just get along?”

To your question about how many Catholics would actually attend a Latin NO, how would we know unless it is offered? The Latin NO in Portland is in the worst part of town and the TLM is in the middle of the industrial area (again not the usual haunt of families). When I talk to many Catholics about the use of Latin, incense, chant, etc. in the NO mass the response quite often is “oh, wouldn’t that be nice” but they are unwilling to drive an hour to experience it. Until Latin masses are offered more generously we will never know.
 
Dr. Bombay:
Since I haven’t been gifted with the charism of prophecy (and I don’t think good Cardinal Arinze has either), I can’t really say whether it will be an issue.

What I can say is the same thing I’ve said before: If you had asked the average Cardinal in 1940 if he believed that within 30 years every trace of Latin would be expunged from the majority of Masses in the Roman Rite, he would’ve laughed you to scorn.

It is impossible to predict what will happen. What seems “normative” and “entrenched” now could, in as little as a decade, seem antiquated. Many things could influence this, economic upheaval, war, reunion with the Orthodox, the fall of Communism in China, a Muslim extremist takeover of parts of Europe, an invasion of pod people from another planet, a plethora of JPII priests who demand Latin, a new generation of hierarchy not co-opted by their direct connection to Vatican II, the rise of the Antichrist…who knows what the future holds? I don’t. **And if you do, please give up Wednesday’s Powerball numbers. **👋
I live in Vegas. I don’t gamble.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Apparently I am to an increasing number of people on these forums, perhaps I should give them up.
Oh now, Kirk. You mustn’t leave. We’d all miss your misguided defense of the audible Canon. If not you, who? :yup:

I’m giving up the internet for Lent. I’m not sure if that’s a bigger sacrifice for me or for those on this forum who won’t be graced with my insight for six weeks.
 
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arieh0310:
To quote Rodney King “Can’t we all just get along?”

To your question about how many Catholics would actually attend a Latin NO, how would we know unless it is offered? The Latin NO in Portland is in the worst part of town and the TLM is in the middle of the industrial area (again not the usual haunt of families). When I talk to many Catholics about the use of Latin, incense, chant, etc. in the NO mass the response quite often is “oh, wouldn’t that be nice” but they are unwilling to drive an hour to experience it. Until Latin masses are offered more generously we will never know.
Demand has to preceed an offer, in this case. We’ve too few priests. If a bishop has good reason to offer it (demand, for example) then he should offer it. If those who think it would be “nice” can’t be bothered to drive across town, then they must not want it very bad and if I were the bishop, I wouldn’t take any action on it, either.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Apparently I am to an increasing number of people on these forums, perhaps I should give them up.
Oh pishshaw!
You’re a peach!

Hugs!
 
Dr. Bombay:
Oh now, Kirk. You mustn’t leave. We’d all miss your misguided defense of the audible Canon. If not you, who? :yup:

I’m giving up the internet for Lent. I’m not sure if that’s a bigger sacrifice for me or for those on this forum who won’t be graced with my insight for six weeks.
I thought of that first!!
Actually, I gave up this and one other forum. Ooooo, spent too much on E-Bay I must say.

What will be do without you?
 
Dr. Bombay:
Since I haven’t been gifted with the charism of prophecy (and I don’t think good Cardinal Arinze has either), I can’t really say whether it will be an issue.

What I can say is the same thing I’ve said before: If you had asked the average Cardinal in 1940 if he believed that within 30 years every trace of Latin would be expunged from the majority of Masses in the Roman Rite, he would’ve laughed you to scorn.

It is impossible to predict what will happen. What seems “normative” and “entrenched” now could, in as little as a decade, seem antiquated. Many things could influence this, economic upheaval, war, reunion with the Orthodox, the fall of Communism in China, a Muslim extremist takeover of parts of Europe, an invasion of pod people from another planet, a plethora of JPII priests who demand Latin, a new generation of hierarchy not co-opted by their direct connection to Vatican II, the rise of the Antichrist…who knows what the future holds? I don’t. And if you do, please give up Wednesday’s Powerball numbers. 👋
Warning Doc!
The pod people are among us! As we troll these forums. They have infiltrated the land.
But I have A secret. I KNOW WHO THEY ARE!
They are disguising themselves as the Sisters of St. Joseph Medaille! Pssst. dont watch the movie “Dead man walking!” Thats how they steal your soul
😉
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Demand has to preceed an offer, in this case. We’ve too few priests. If a bishop has good reason to offer it (demand, for example) then he should offer it. If those who think it would be “nice” can’t be bothered to drive across town, then they must not want it very bad and if I were the bishop, I wouldn’t take any action on it, either.
I don’t think most Catholics who like a traditional mass are activists and it seems the only changes we see implemented in the mass since VII have been a direct result of the activists.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
I thought of that first!!
Actually, I gave up this and one other forum. Ooooo, spent too much on E-Bay I must say.

What will be do without you?
Well, technically, Sunday’s are not part of Lent. So I might make an appearance. 😉
 
QUICUMQUE VULT:
Warning Doc!
The pod people are among us! As we troll these forums. They have infiltrated the land.
But I have A secret. I KNOW WHO THEY ARE!
They are disguising themselves as the Sisters of St. Joseph Medaille! Pssst. dont watch the movie “Dead man walking!” Thats how they steal your soul
😉
:eek: Don’t worry. I’m in little danger of watching anything the communards of Hollywood produce. When they put the words of Our Lord, “You’re either with me or against me” in the mouth of Darth Vader in the last Star Wars movie, I decided they can drag people’s souls to hell without my further monetary contribution.

Re: Dead Man Walking…Someone needs to tell Sean Penn: Grimacing painfully in every scene is not the same as acting.
 
Joe Gloor:
Regarding not understanding objections to Latin in the Mass:

The above argument is best interpreted as “we should keep doing it that way because we’ve always done it that way.”
Yeah, we’ve always done it that way, it’s a little thing called tradition. About 60% of our faith is made up of it.

S
 
I don’t know about a Latin mass but I like singing in Latin since I remember learning a lot of the Latin stuff when I was in a choir back in grade school. It is funny too since I only for the first time found out I know how to say the first half of the Hail Mary in Latin. I had absolutely no clue what I was singing when I learned Shuberts Ave Maria a while back and then finally recentl made the connection between that song and the Hail Mary. I wonder what Panis Angelicus fit panis hominum… means.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Demand has to preceed an offer, in this case. We’ve too few priests. If a bishop has good reason to offer it (demand, for example) then he should offer it. If those who think it would be “nice” can’t be bothered to drive across town, then they must not want it very bad and if I were the bishop, I wouldn’t take any action on it, either.
I wouldn’t agree with the demand preceeding the offer.

I was born in 1962 so I have no recollection of Latin or even traditional celebrations of the Novus Ordo since my childhood parish got right into the form we see today (a-la 60’s and 70’s decor and style).

But, as a teen I secretely desired to learn Latin and even attempted to teach myself. Then, as I struggled I wondered what I was doing since I would never likely hear it in the context of Mass.

Move forward to 2005. I walked through the doors of Assumption Grotto, lured by several things on Pentecost, especially the “Orchestral Mass” that I saw advertised on their website. Much to my surprise I witnessed a traditionally celebrated Novus Ordo, in Latin, and with the priest in the ad orientem posture. I was so captivated by the experience I was drawn back for weekday Masses - something I’ve not done before in secular life. Within three days I was so moved by this Mass that it changed my entire view of the Mass, and ultimately my life! Yes, this Mass was at the very core of a huge inner conversion. I have been going there ever since. I registered in that urban parish just one month after walking through those doors and the conversion process continues. I’ve never made this kind of spiritual progress in all my life. And, the culture that comes with this style of worship is also very, very big on the Sacrament of Penance. It was hard to resist going with so many people standing in 3-4 confession lines prior to Mass. It was inviting. Hence, with a Latin Novus Ordo or a TLM, a particular kind of culture comes along for the ride - one rich with sacramental life, reverence and devotion. There is so much adoration, benediction, Holy Hours for vocations, Novenas I never experienced, and a heavy Marian emphasis, which had been almost devoid in my previous parishes.

Like other parishes which have a Latin Novus Ordo, we have only one weekend Mass out of 4 that is in Latin. The rest are in the vernacular. So, it’s not like the parish is ramming it down people’s throats. Those who are moved by Latin come to the 9:30 am Mass. Booklets provide near literal translations - the kind found in the column Fr. John Zuhlsdorf writes called “What does the Prayer Really Say”. I caught these translations right away as far more beautiful and richer in meaning than that to which I was accustomed. I also found that by following in the booklet, I paid attention to words that had gone over my head from years of hearing them. It was like seeing these things new for the first time.

I have witnessed many young seminarians in my area make use of Mass in Latin. They are very reserved in the way they celebrate the Mass and they are orthodox - quite apparent from the rich, full homilies. I truly believe that in the years to come, as these fine young men become pastors, they will bring Latin back into the Novus Ordo. For many, it will be mixed, such as the way it is in the EWTN mass.

In my mind, the most charitable thing to do for Catholics is to offer, within each vicariate of each diocese, at least one Novus Ordo in Latin, celebrated with the kind of reservedness seen in the TLM. It doesn’t have to be ad orientem, but in Latin and reserved. People should not have to drive an hour to experience a reserved liturgy, especially since the Pope’s have requested that some Latin be used in liturgies. And, I’ll admit, Latin is not a requirement for the traditional experience, but from what I’ve seen in my area, more young people are attracted to it than older, nostaligic folk.

I believe if there had always been Latin Novus Ordo’s readily available to those who like it, celebrated in such a reserved manner, my gut feeling is that we may not have experienced a schism on the part of the SSPX. I can truly understand how people felt that they were being neglected in their worshiping needs, but I do not condone their separation. I don’t doubt that some want the TLM period, but I just don’t think the rebellion wouldn’t have started if the Latin hadn’t been stripped and if the Novus Ordo wasn’t hi-jacked by wayward liturgists - some with really good intentions, and some with not so good intentions.
 
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slewi:
Yeah, we’ve always done it that way, it’s a little thing called tradition. About 60% of our faith is made up of it.

S
I notice its tradition with the small ‘t’ 🙂
 
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arieh0310:
The sign of the cross isn’t dogma, nor is genuflecting, nor vestments, nor a thousand other things that are distinctly Catholic. If we toss everything that has 1900 years of tradition simply because it isn’t dogma then Catholicism becomes as sterile as protestantism. Your arguments are exactly the arguments I heard by my anti-Catholic pastors who despised anything liturgical or traditional simply because it wasn’t found in the Bible (their sole source of dogma).

Latin is more that just asthetically pleasing, it is transcendant and avoids the quaint colloquialisms of pop culture.
I say the sign of the cross in the vernacular - do you say it in Latin?
I’m not recommending throwing the baby out with the bathwater, I’m only saying that Latin is neither asthetically pleasing or transcendant for me.
Nor am I recommending:
Priest - “Body of Christ”
Me - “I can dig it!”
 
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