Lazarus and the Rich Man

[rinnie]

No; to repent and to be sorry are two different things. To be sorry is to experience an emotion of sorrow. To repent is to actually change your behaviour.

Simple example: a police officer stops a motorist who is going the wrong way down a one-way street. The motorist has two options; he can argue with the police officer and say, But Officer, I was only going one way!" (he is unrepentant; he does not change direction) or, he can say, “Oh, I am sorry, Officer,” and then he turns his car around and starts to go in the right direction (he is repentant - he changes direction).

But sorrow is only the first step - it must be followed by repentance, or else it cannot be forgiven. If the motorist says, “Oh, I am very sorry, Officer,” but then keeps travelling in the same direction, the officer will be required to write him a ticket for going the wrong way on a one way street - his sorrow is not enough to gain him forgiveness.

Not if you don’t intend to repent - turn around and change your ways.

Yes, this is very true, since the feeling of remorse tells us that something needs to be changed. But it is when we change that we are forgiven. Not just when we feel remorse.

I am sure there are situations where people do what they know is wrong, and feel sorry for doing it - but do you think they are forgiven, simply because they feel sorry for what they are continuing to do?

Actually, we are told in Psalm 139 that God is also in control of Hell - that God knows us and loves us, even if we are in the seventh circle of Hell.

Trust me I have been through it with these people on this. I said to repent is to be sorry and ask for forgiveness. To repent and show repentance is two different things. I got called every name in the book for that. I was taught you must repent which is to show sorrow and ask for forgiveness. Then we have penance which is what I was taught is repentance. What I was told is repentance is to pray and ask God to help you quit doing that sin. Repentance is to quit the sin, an on going process. And I got myself ripped in half over that. Ask Mickey he can tell you, he tried to make me a fool. Or go look at the purgatory thread its all there.

I do not agree with you on Psalm though. It says Sheol which is a ancient hebrew word, the ancient greek word is hades . It is the word we today refer to as Purgatory. So I disagree that is not hell. To be in hell I will repeat is when you want nothing to do with God. Total separation from him. So you may want to check out that Psalm again. I have asked them all, and they will not answer, maybe you will, I know the answer, maybe you can tell them. what is the OT word for Hell?

 

[rinnie]

Jesus is speaking of the time before His resurrection, in this parable, as we see at the end where He says, “but they would not believe, even if someone were to rise from the dead.” So, this parable is taking place before the Resurrection.

At the time of the Resurrection, Jesus unlocked the gates of Heaven and it became possible for human beings to enter in there.

At this time, Purgatory also came into existence, so that those human beings who were going to Heaven could be cleansed of the temporal consequences of their venial sins. But prior to this, there was no need of Purgatory, because no human beings were going to Heaven, yet.

Lazarus is obviously not in Heaven, because he does not see God. He is in the place where Abraham was prior to the Resurrection, which we see in I Peter 3, it was the Limbo of the Fathers, where the Old Testament Saints were waiting for Jesus to come.

Jesus came to them during the 40 hours from when He died on the Cross, until He was raised from the dead, as we see in I Peter 3. This was after the period of time that is indicated in the parable itself, which is a time when Abraham and the other Old Testament Saints were still waiting for Jesus to come to them, before they could yet see God.

I agree that it had taken place before the Jesus rose. Think about it he told the parable. But I disagree it was not purgatory. Because again in hell you cannot see the righteous, and the rich man saw Lazarus. Read the first chapter of hebrews they talk about purgation of sins. Purgation is a act of cleansing. Same thing as purgatory today. And act of cleansing. Again I agree with you, we do not just repent, we must do repentance. that is what the cleansing of our sins are . Think about it what is Repentance, cleaning of our sins also. same thing again, doing some kind of penance for our sins. Praying, trying to right the wrong etc.

 

[davidv]

Trust me I have been through it with these people on this. I said to repent is to be sorry and ask for forgiveness.

And you are wrong. Not because what you stated is incorrect, but because it is incomplete. One must add “change your ways” to what you wrote before you have truely repented.

To repent and show repentance is two different things. I got called every name in the book for that. I was taught you must repent which is to show sorrow and ask for forgiveness.

See above for what the Church means by “repentance”.

Then we have penance which is what I was taught is repentance.

Then you were taught wrong or you misunderstood the teaching. You can consult the CCC to determine the correct teaching. It clearly will show that penance is not equal to repentance.

What I was told is repentance is to pray and ask God to help you quit doing that sin. Repentance is to quit the sin, an on going process.

I know this is what you think it is. But this doesn’t agree with the way the CCC explains it. How do you explain the difference?

And I got myself ripped in half over that. Ask Mickey he can tell you, he tried to make me a fool. Or go look at the purgatory thread its all there.

A number of us have charitably attempted to show you that the way you present the information is not in agreement with Church teaching, and yet you persist in repeating the errors without showing us how we have misrepresented the Church teaching.

I do not agree with you on Psalm though. It says Sheol which is a ancient hebrew word, the ancient greek word is hades . It is the word we today refer to as Purgatory. So I disagree that is not hell. To be in hell I will repeat is when you want nothing to do with God. Total separation from him. So you may want to check out that Psalm again. I have asked them all, and they will not answer, maybe you will, I know the answer, maybe you can tell them. what is the OT word for Hell?

I believe the “Bosom of Abrahm” article in my previous post addresses this point.

 

[steve_b]

Have your read the “Bosom of Abraham” article in the Catholic Encyclopedia?

My reading of it says that the “bosom of Abrahan” is not what the church currently teaches as “purgatory” and that** the place of the rich man is hell**.

What do you think?

Here is a Jewish site. I don’t know what portion of Judaism this represents. But they claim to be orthodox.

jewfaq.org/search.htm

Here is a search engine for terms and definitions
jewfaq.org/search.htm

Try searching Gehenna / Gehinnom

 

[rinnie]

And you are wrong. Not because what you stated is incorrect, but because it is incomplete. One must add “change your ways” to what you wrote before you have truely repented.

See above for what the Church means by “repentance”.

Then you were taught wrong or you misunderstood the teaching. You can consult the CCC to determine the correct teaching. It clearly will show that penance is not equal to repentance.

I know this is what you think it is. But this doesn’t agree with the way the CCC explains it. How do you explain the difference?

A number of us have charitably attempted to show you that the way you present the information is not in agreement with Church teaching, and yet you persist in repeating the errors without showing us how we have misrepresented the Church teaching.

I believe the “Bosom of Abrahm” article in my previous post addresses this point.

David did you ever look up the def. for penance in the dictionary? Try doing it some time.

 

[davidv]

I agree that it had taken place before the Jesus rose. Think about it he told the parable. But I disagree it was not purgatory. Because again in hell you cannot see the righteous, and the rich man saw Lazarus.

I don’t recalled reading anything or being taught that this is an attribute of hell. How do you know?

Read the first chapter of hebrews they talk about purgation of sins. Purgation is a act of cleansing. Same thing as purgatory today. And act of cleansing. Again I agree with you, we do not just repent, we must do repentance. that is what the cleansing of our sins are . Think about it what is Repentance, cleaning of our sins also. same thing again, doing some kind of penance for our sins. Praying, trying to right the wrong etc.

I think I understand what you mean. And if I understand it correctly, I agree with you. The trouble is that if I wasn’t very well taught I would not have the same understanding. The words absolution, penance and sanctification could express what you meant in a much clearer way.

 

[rinnie]

And you are wrong. Not because what you stated is incorrect, but because it is incomplete. One must add “change your ways” to what you wrote before you have truely repented.

See above for what the Church means by “repentance”.

Then you were taught wrong or you misunderstood the teaching. You can consult the CCC to determine the correct teaching. It clearly will show that penance is not equal to repentance.

I know this is what you think it is. But this doesn’t agree with the way the CCC explains it. How do you explain the difference?

A number of us have charitably attempted to show you that the way you present the information is not in agreement with Church teaching, and yet you persist in repeating the errors without showing us how we have misrepresented the Church teaching.

I believe the “Bosom of Abrahm” article in my previous post addresses this point.

Also david how could quit doing the sin, not be changing your ways? Is there a difference?

 

[davidv]

David did you ever look up the def. for penance in the dictionary? Try doing it some time.

I did one better:

I looked it up in the Catholic Encyclopedia. It says:

Designates (1) a virtue; (2) a sacrament of the New Law; (3) a canonical punishment inflicted according to the earlier discipline of the Church; (4) a work of satisfaction enjoined upon the recipient of the sacrament

Which definition do you have in mind and how do you think I should apply it?

 

[jmcrae]

Also david how could quit doing the sin, not be changing your ways? Is there a difference?

But the rich man never quit doing his sin. He never stopped ignoring Lazarus’ cries for help. He died in his sins. He never repented of them.

He felt sorry for himself because he went to Hell, but during his lifetime he never lifted even one finger to help Lazarus.

 

[davidv]

Also david how could quit doing the sin, not be changing your ways? Is there a difference?

This was a part of your statement that I responded to.

I said to repent is to be sorry and ask for forgiveness.

The reason I responded this way was because “being sorry” and asking forgiveness does not automatically lead to a “change of ways”. Clearly they are both necessary but without the resolve of the will to resist future tempations the expressed sorrow and request for forgiveness were just empty promises.

 

[rinnie]

But the rich man never quit doing his sin. He never stopped ignoring Lazarus’ cries for help. He died in his sins. He never repented of them.

He felt sorry for himself because he went to Hell, but during his lifetime he never lifted even one finger to help Lazarus.

jmc he was sorry. He never said he was not sorry for what he did. That is what separates us for God, not being sorry, not accepting our sin. To Not accept Christ.

It said he was in the netherworld ( that was a place of the dead)
not hell.

He was sorry and had mercy for his brothers. Mercy is a grace. Mercy comes from God. Nothing in hell will come from God. If you go to hell you have no mercy for yourself or anyone else.

 

[rinnie]

But the rich man never quit doing his sin. He never stopped ignoring Lazarus’ cries for help. He died in his sins. He never repented of them.

He felt sorry for himself because he went to Hell, but during his lifetime he never lifted even one finger to help Lazarus.

Again because he did not realize how bad his sin was. And the proof in that is, he knew if he did not understand it, his brothers also wouldn’t get it either. That is why he wanted someone to go and tell them. he missed it jmc. And God saw that he missed it. And God did forgive him jmc. But he still had to do his penance for his sin. That is why he was in temporal hell you could say. or purgatory or the waiting place to be purified from your sins. It does not matter the name. RC call it purgatory. But God knows your heart. And when he showed the rich man I am sure he said please forgive me Lord, and our Lord did indeed forgive him. Now he needed the final purification. Abraham and Lazarus either did not need it or already were through it. That I do not know.

 

[rinnie]

I did one better:

I looked it up in the Catholic Encyclopedia. It says:
Which definition do you have in mind and how do you think I should apply it?

To me repentance is 3 or 4. .

 

[jmcrae]

jmc he was sorry. He never said he was not sorry for what he did. That is what separates us for God, not being sorry, not accepting our sin.

We have to be sorry and change our ways before we die. The rich man was not sorry about anything until after he died. That’s why he was in the place of torment - in Hell.

The whole point of the parable is that being sorry after death is of no avail - we have to repent before we die.

 

[rinnie]

This was a part of your statement that I responded to.
The reason I responded this way was because “being sorry” and asking forgiveness does not automatically lead to a “change of ways”. Clearly they are both necessary but without the resolve of the will to resist future tempations the expressed sorrow and request for forgiveness were just empty promises.

I totally agree, that is again why I made it clear to repent is not enough, you have to do repentance. Hope we can be on the same page now. Thanks David.

 

[rinnie]

We have to be sorry and change our ways before we die. The rich man was not sorry about anything until after he died. That’s why he was in the place of torment - in Hell.

The whole point of the parable is that being sorry after death is of no avail - we have to repent before we die.

Yes we do, and the rich man did repent he was sorry, And our Lord had mercy on his soul. Thats how he got into purgatory. But you cannot just repent (to be sorry and ask for forgiveness) you must do penance (repentantance) for those sins. All sin can be forgiven but we must pay for those sins. That is why they say pay in this world its alot shorter. The more sins we have and quit doing the less time we will spend in purgatory.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes we do, and the rich man did repent he was sorry,

Only after he died.

And our Lord had mercy on his soul.

No, He didn’t - the Lord didn’t even have anything to do with him at all. Abraham told him “No.” His requests were not granted. No mercy was shown to him. He did not get his sip of water, and Lazarus was not raised up from the dead to go and warn the brothers. At the end of the parable, the rich man is still in torment, with no relief being offered to him.

 

[rinnie]

Only after he died.

No, He didn’t - the Lord didn’t even have anything to do with him at all. Abraham told him “No.” His requests were not granted. No mercy was shown to him. He did not get his sip of water, and Lazarus was not raised up from the dead to go and warn the brothers. At the end of the parable, the rich man is still in torment, with no relief being offered to him.

okay have it your way. But answer me one question. The people in hell will not see the righteous. How did he see Abraham?

 

[jmcrae]

okay have it your way. But answer me one question. The people in hell will not see the righteous.

How do you know?

How did he see Abraham?

Because God granted it to him, to be able to see Abraham.

 

[rinnie]

How do you know?

Because God granted it to him, to be able to see Abraham.

That is not the teachings of the church. Hell is total separation from God. Also scripture says people in hell will not see the righteousl both scripture. So leads to only once answer. God did indeed have mercy on him. and there is indeed purgatory and thats where he was.

I never said Abraham or lazarus had mercy on him. I said God did. and how do you know that they did not pray for him and have mercy on him. It never said they not have mercy on him, it said they could not cross over to where he was. and help him.