Lazarus and the Rich Man

[jmcrae]

If the rich man was on his way to Heaven, then what is the point of the parable?

Because it loses its force to say, “Well, ideally you would repent of your sins and begin to do good while you are still alive on the earth, but it’s no biggie, really, since after a short stay in Purgatory, you will go to Heaven, anyway.”

Is that the message of the parable, then?

Because the teaching of the Fathers and our recent Popes is that the point of the parable is to say, “Repent now while there is still time, because after death, if you have not yet repented, you will go to Hell.” But if the rich man is not actually in Hell, then -

And, why does Jesus call it an “impassible divide” if the rich man is, at any moment, about to leap across it and join up with Lazarus and Abraham, anyway?

 

[jmcrae]

Then why has the church APPROVED these private revelations saying that they contain NOTHING which conflicts with church teaching?

The Church does not actually pronounce anything, either way, regarding private revelations, because of the fact that private revelations are intended for the people to whom they are being given, and not for the Church, nor for the general public - they are private - not the Church’s business, and unless we received them ourselves, not ours, either.

 

[Sir_Knight]

The Church does not actually pronounce anything, either way, regarding private revelations, because of the fact that private revelations are intended for the people to whom they are being given, and not for the Church, nor for the general public - they are private - not the Church’s business, and unless we received them ourselves, not ours, either.

The Church DOES declare if something is worthy of belief or isn’t worthy of belief and if it is worthy of belief, that means it contains NOTHING which conflicts with Church teaching.

 

[rinnie]

If the rich man was on his way to Heaven, then what is the point of the parable?

Because it loses its force to say, “Well, ideally you would repent of your sins and begin to do good while you are still alive on the earth, but it’s no biggie, really, since after a short stay in Purgatory, you will go to Heaven, anyway.”

Is that the message of the parable, then?

Because the teaching of the Fathers and our recent Popes is that the point of the parable is to say, “Repent now while there is still time, because after death, if you have not yet repented, you will go to Hell.” But if the rich man is not actually in Hell, then -

And, why does Jesus call it an “impassible divide” if the rich man is, at any moment, about to leap across it and join up with Lazarus and Abraham, anyway?

Where did Jesus say that impassible was impossible? Did he say that the rich man could never get across. Or did he say one could not reach the other at that time? Could it be that the rich man was going through the cleansing and was not quite finished?

 

[jmcrae]

The Church DOES declare if something is worthy of belief or isn’t worthy of belief and if it is worthy of belief, that means it contains NOTHING which conflicts with Church teaching.

What “approved” private revelations do you know of that say that people in Hell morph into something that is non-human?

 

[rinnie]

And also Hell is total separation from God. How do you become totally separated from God. You refuse to repent, and you reject him totally. What is a mortal sin, to sin against God and know that you are doing it.

Again the rich man was not aware of how he bad he offended God because the proof was he wanted to warn his brothers. Why if he knew they would know also. Right. Why warn them.

Gotta go for tonight. God Bless you all. And Sir knight you are awesome as usual!

 

[Sir_Knight]

If the rich man was on his way to Heaven, then what is the point of the parable?

Well, one reason is to teach about purgatory to the unbelievers

Because it loses its force to say, “Well, ideally you would repent of your sins and begin to do good while you are still alive on the earth, but it’s no biggie, really, since after a short stay in Purgatory, you will go to Heaven, anyway.”

The horrible suffering described clearly shows that it was far from being a “no biggie”.

Because the teaching of the Fathers and our recent Popes is that the point of the parable is to say, “Repent now while there is still time, because after death, if you have not yet repented, you will go to Hell.” But if the rich man is not actually in Hell, then -

Because the parable of the Rich Man is focusing on not just that one message.

And, why does Jesus call it an “impassible divide” if the rich man is, at any moment, about to leap across it and join up with Lazarus and Abraham, anyway?

And if the Rich Man is in hell, how is he able to see Abraham and communicate with him?

 

[jmcrae]

Where did Jesus say that impassible was impossible? Did he say that the rich man could never get across.

Here is the parable:

Luke 16

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you** a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’**

27"He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to** this place of torment.**’

29"Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30" ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31"He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "

Or did he say one could not reach the other at that time? Could it be that the rich man was going through the cleansing and was not quite finished?

There is nothing in the parable to indicate that he was ever going to be able to cross over.

 

[Sir_Knight]

What “approved” private revelations do you know of that say that people in Hell morph into something that is non-human?

Before even getting into private revelation, I refer you to Psalm 5:6 & 11:5. Hell will be full of people who may have been good and compassionate at some point in their lives, but ultimately rejected the true good, God, and chose hell instead. Those in hell can no longer be good and compassionate because goodness and compassion are the fruits of God’s grace, and those in hell are deprived of those graces for all eternity. Thus, hell will be full of the wicked who rejected God’s gift of salvation. They will be hated by God and suffer for all eternity

 

[jmcrae]

And if the Rich Man is in hell, how is he able to see Abraham and communicate with him?

Because Abraham and Lazarus are not yet in Heaven. They are in Sheol.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Here is the parable:

Luke 16

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25"But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you** a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’**

27"He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to** this place of torment.**’

29"Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30" ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31"He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ "

You are misinterpreting the word “hell.” In Luke 16:23, hell (in Greek, Hades) does not refer to the place of eternal punishment; it refers to the place of the dead who were awaiting Christ’s resurrection (the ancients called it Sheol). For example, in the Apostles’ Creed, we say “Christ descended into hell.” He did not really descend into the hell of eternal fire; he descended into Sheol.

The rich man represents those who are suffering in purgatory (because he shows the grace of concern for his brothers, and those in hell are deprived of God’s grace for all eternity).

I, too, need to sign off for the night but hope to be back tomorrow evening to continue our discussion.

 

[jmcrae]

They will be hated by God and suffer for all eternity

God will not “hate” them in the sense of not loving them anymore. God loves them forever. But they hate God, and so God separates them from Himself. And suffering for eternity seems to imply that they will remain human, and able to experience suffering (that is, they will know the difference between good and evil, and will consider their experience in Hell to be evil).

 

[Benadam]

when a person went to sheol if they didn’t find themselves in the bosom of Abraham there wasn’t anything the soul could do to change that. Some theologians say that the bosom of abraham was something akin to Paradise because of a natural bliss attached to the expectation of heaven.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Because Abraham and Lazarus are not yet in Heaven. They are in Sheol.

They are righteous because they are not in hell and those in hell will not be able to see the righteous.

 

[jmcrae]

when a person went to sheol if they didn’t find themselves in the bosom of Abraham there wasn’t anything the soul could do to change that. Some theologians say that the bosom of abraham was something akin to Paradise because of a natural bliss attached to the expectation of heaven.

Yes, that makes good sense.

 

[jmcrae]

They are righteous because they are not in hell and those in hell will not be able to see the righteous.

How do you know?

 

[Sir_Knight]

God will not “hate” them in the sense of not loving them anymore. God loves them forever. But they hate God, and so God separates them from Himself. And suffering for eternity seems to imply that they will remain human, and able to experience suffering (that is, they will know the difference between good and evil, and will consider their experience in Hell to be evil).

Psalm 11:5 … “Jehovah trieth the righteous one; but the wicked, and him that loveth violence, his soul hateth.”

I’ll be back tomorrow to continue our discussion unless something unexpected comes up.

 

[jmcrae]

Psalm 11:5 … "Jehovah trieth the righteous one; but the wicked, and him that loveth violence, his soul hateth."

I’ll be back tomorrow to continue our discussion unless something unexpected comes up.

Yes - and just as “Hell” can refer to Hades (afterlife), Sheol (paradise), or Gehenna (place of the damned), among others, so also, “hate” has a spectrum of meanings in the Bible. When it says that God “hates” it doesn’t mean that God is experiencing a negative emotion (since God doesn’t really have emotions, as such) but rather that God is separating Himself from that person or from that situation. this is the same meaning that Jesus means when He tells us to “hate” our family members who do not believe in Him - He doesn’t mean that we are to stop doing our duty for them, or stop loving them, but simply to separate ourselves from them.

 

[jmcrae]

You are misinterpreting the word “hell.” In Luke 16:23, hell (in Greek, Hades) does not refer to the place of eternal punishment; it refers to the place of the dead who were awaiting Christ’s resurrection (the ancients called it Sheol).

It can also refer to Gehenna, the place of the damned.

The rich man represents those who are suffering in purgatory (because he shows the grace of concern for his brothers, and those in hell are deprived of God’s grace for all eternity).

Except that he cannot cross over the chasm that has been fixed between himself and the Paradise of Abraham - and if he cannot cross over, then he will not be there when Jesus comes to release the souls from there into Heaven.

 

[Sir_Knight]

rather that God is separating Himself from that person or from that situation

If God is seperating Himself from that person, why would He continue to give that person graces? See here – prayforourleaders.com/PurgatoryInTheBible.html …

HERE ARE SOME SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES AND QUOTES CONCERNING THE DOGMA OF PURGATORY:

ST. LUKE 16: 19-31 - THE PARABLE OF LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN.

Notice that the rich man is “tormened in this flame”, and yet he desires to be MERCIFUL to his “five brethren” in his father’s house! The rich man asks “…Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father’s house, for I have five brethren, That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments.”
(Luke 16: 27-28)

A soul in the torments of the Hell Of The Damned does not have any mercy for those who are still alive on Earth!!! The rich man must be in some other location where the virtue of DIVINE MERCY is practiced, because there is no mercy in the Hell Of The Damned!

In The Vestibule Of Hell,
where THE RICH MAN IS SUFFERING
MANY SEVERE TORMENTS,
(THIS IS CALLED PURGATION -
THE CLEANSING OF IMPURITY
AND SIN IN PURGATORY)
there is evidence of
The Practice Of MERCY!
Do you see this here
in this Parable of
the Rich Man and Lazarus?

… hmmm, this sound familiar.