Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong

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PBS did a nice piece on their Newshour today, near the end of the show. It was an historical look at masks, going all the way back to the “bird masks” of the bubonic plague in the middle ages and including the 1918 “Spanish Flu” mask debate, especially in San Francisco. I recommend it here. It is only 6 minutes long.
 
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LeafByNiggle said:
And I suggest you realize that no one knows at this point whether covid-19 will be more like the small pox or influence in this regard.
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Your are saying the covid vaccine might be like the small pox immunization? A one off for all time immunization?
Seriously?
 
vz71 said:
Someone making a claim has the obligation to back it with research.
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We are on a forum, we are not in a scientific conference where we must prove our theories with our research. This does not mean you cannot freely just google the issue and do your own research into this.
vz71 said:
I immediately suspect the claim false when the person making the claim also tells others to do the research for them.
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In Australia we dont spoon feed our university students, we tell them to read and find out for themselves. It is a far more effective form of learning.

So you do your own homework on this one. You disputed that re infection is possible within a short time frame, not me.
 
Theo520 said:
Yes, all the countries that opted to shut down till they crushed the virus are doing better than countries that focused on not overwhelming their hospitals. My hats off to NZ, AUS, Norway, Taiwan etc.
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The more I read of you, the more I respect your posts and thinking Theo. At present Victorian numbers are coming down again, and a by product of this virus and its extensive spread through our nursing homes is showing the incredible neglect and corrupt management of them by private operators.
I thank God that is coming to the fore.
One poor woman, moved to hospital this week from a nursing home, due to covid, had 18 infected bed sores on her . There is absolutely no excuse for that.
The reason the virus has spread so fast through the nursing homes is the way the casual work force migrates between homes daily .

The Swedish chief health officer has said that the idea of ‘herd immunity’ has not worked out the way it was envisaged.

@Cathoholic. which post are you referring to? Your quote link seems to be broken so I cannot track back to the specific post you are referring to when you questioned

“which vaccine”
 
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umamibella said:
We are on a forum, we are not in a scientific conference where we must prove our theories with our research.
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If you wish to be believed, then you provide the evidence.
It is not the job of anyone else to back your assertion.
umamibella said:
This does not mean you cannot freely just google the issue and do your own research into this.
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Of course, you are correct here. Nothing is stopping someone from a few clicks of the mouse.
And that makes it all the more suspicious when someone making a claim doesn’t do it.
umamibella said:
In Australia we dont
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I don’t really care how you do it in Australia.
It has long been established that the one making the claim must also provide the evidence.
umamibella said:
So you do your own homework on this one. You disputed that re infection is possible within a short time frame, not me.
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No, I pointed out the lack of evidence you provided for the claim.
Here is what I said again…
vz71 said:
I’m immediately suspicious.
You could easily prevent the argument by citing the research, specifying how many, and how they prove reinfection.
But we are not.
Is this one of those cases where someone heard something may have happened at one time and therefore believes it?
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vz71 said:
If you wish to be believed, then you provide the evidence.
It is not the job of anyone else to back your assertion.
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no skin off my nose if you believe me or not. Back off the accusatory tone. You can google, its up to you.
vz71 said:
Of course, you are correct here. Nothing is stopping someone from a few clicks of the mouse.
And that makes it all the more suspicious when someone making a claim doesn’t do it.
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So you are suspicious then by your own argument here.
vz71 said:
I don’t really care how you do it in Australia.
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I did not ask you to care.
vz71 said:
It has long been established that the one making the claim must also provide the evidence.
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Ah so you can now back this claim up with CAF rulings then.
vz71 said:
No, I pointed out the lack of evidence you provided for the claim.
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Easy answer, google and learn for yourself and then make a judgment, right now you are just throwing up strawmans rather then actually doing the leg work.
 
vz71 said:
Your legwork.
And no, I am not doing your homework for you.

Your claims are baseless.
Your research is lacking.
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Comprehension is key here, you missed the part where I said you do your own research on this. Its coming out of South Korea, China, USA and other countries wih very high tolls.
In fact I was just watching a documentary on it last night.

It seems your collective public information. wherever you live, is severely lacking.
 
umamibella said:
Comprehension is key here, you missed the part where I said you do your own research on this.
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No, I saw that.
I just don’t believe I should research your conjectures.
umamibella said:
Its coming out of South Korea, China, USA and other countries wih very high tolls.
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Sure it is… source?
umamibella said:
In fact I was just watching a documentary on it last night.
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Channel? Title? Source?
umamibella said:
It seems your collective public information. wherever you live, is severely lacking.
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Doubt that. I have just as much access to the internet as the next guy.
 
Thbolt said:
Sweden is not doing well if you compare the number of deaths per capita.
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Don’t see why you would say that, they are tracking the rest of the EU

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vz71 said:
No, I saw that.
I just don’t believe I should research your conjectures.
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More discord. You are not required to believe or disbelieve any posts on these forums. Its quite ok if you do or dont believe. I respect and support your decision to believe or disbelieve any internet statements.
vz71 said:
I have just as much access to the internet as the next guy.
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Then use it! Research or read the current up to date Covid science.
vz71 said:
Channel? Title? Source?
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Why, are you now questioning that I was viewing a doco , specifically a special on the virus and on what we know so far?
Unbelievable.
 
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umamibella said:
Why, are you now questioning that I was viewing a doco , specifically a special on the virus and on what we know so far?
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You are the one wanting everyone to do the research for you.
And yet you will not provide the information to do so…and complain when we ask for the information.

You really should be more consistent.
 
vz71 said:
You are the one wanting everyone to do the research for you.
And yet you will not provide the information to do so…and complain when we ask for the information.

You really should be more consistent.
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How many times do I have to type, I have not asked you to do my research. I have continually said do your OWN research.
How many times? Is that statement not crystal clear? It is not an Aussie idiom that others are unlikely to understand.

You really should stop attacking the person and start looking at the issue. Provide your own information. The time it has taken you to respond countless times with the same line, you could have used your time more productively by actually reading up on the issue. Dont you think.
I am not out to win internet debate points, I am sure you are not either.

Complain? Joke joyce!
 
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Two related articles

MJ: Did Sweden’s COVID-19 Strategy Fail?​

The conventional wisdom these days is that Sweden’s moderate approach didn’t work. And it’s certainly true that their death rate from COVID-19 has been pretty high. At the same time, part of their strategy has always been to impose restrictions that people can tolerate for a very long time. This might produce higher than average death rates at first, but it might produce lower than average death rates over a full cycle of the infection, including the second COVID-19 wave expected to come in winter. So the big question is how Sweden will compare to other countries once we’ve been through that second wave.

For this reason, I remain extremely interested in the Swedish approach. It might be a failure, but I don’t think we’ll know for sure until next year.
 
Theo520 . . .
This might produce higher than average death rates at first, but it might produce lower than average death rates over a full cycle of the infection, including the second COVID-19 wave expected to come in winter.
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This is a good point Theo520.

The other thing I would like to see is a comparison of the average age of death between Sweden and these other countries.

I heard that Sweden has a high elderly population (but I had nothing to compare it to).

Another parameter to look at would be loss of life-years.

For example in the USA the average age of death with Corona virus is unchanged (actually a little older WITH Corona virus).

Another is how is Sweden defining a Corona virus death? Because we know not only does this vary from country to country outside of America (thus making comparisons somewhat apples to oranges), it also (now we know) varies from county to county WITHIN the USA (OK. I admit I am using a little hyperbole on this last “county” portion).

And one last parameter it would be worth looking at is, Did Sweden have a “Cuomo factor”?

You will recall Andrew Cuomo was mandating infected patients be put INTO long term care facilities (LTCFs) such as nursing homes.

The (what I call) Cuomo factor has resulted in a significant fraction of all the deaths in our COUNTRY!

And now we are finding out the Cuomo factor deaths may be hidden to a significant extent making the Cuomo factor death toll even worse!

With Sweden doing well now, they are going to be glad they have this degree of immunity (we as a nation are lacking) come this winter I suspect.

And their extremely vulnerable they can still take extra measures to protect (unlike Andrew Cuomo did earlier with the elderly and frail in New York) this winter.
 
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Who flattened out quicker and who is has flattened out longer and who is flatter?
NOT SWEDEN and NOT SWEDEN and NOT SWEDEN
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RidgeSprinter. You posted a “Daily New Death” number for Sweden that approaches zero.

This does not make your case.

WHY do you think the WHO sees Sweden as a “model” country as to how we are to manage Corona virus?

WHY should I take your word for this over that of the WHO?
 
In sweden’s case the data is coming from either WHO and/or ECDC
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