Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong

[Theo520]

There are numerous medical people who believe anything you can come up with about COVID. It really tells me nothing to find a vastly minority opinion on an issue from a medical person.

What are you talking about, the WHO, CDC etal believe it will be endemic until a vaccine is both effective and widely available. That is the consensus opinion

You can’t source any major medical opinion that disagrees. You are in the extreme minority.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

What are you talking about, the WHO, CDC etal believe it will be endemic until a vaccine is both effective and widely available. That is the consensus opinion

You can’t source any major medical opinion that disagrees. You are in the extreme minority.

Other coronaviruses are endemic. Think colds caused by them. Or think coronaviruses in the veterinary world: canine, equine and feline in particular. But the original SARS went away as did MERS. So some can hope that could be an outcome here, but it seems the consensus does not think so given the resources being poured into vaccines.

Given the difficulty associated with coronavirus vaccines in the veterinary environment, it’s not easy to be optimistic about human coronavirus vaccines. But a lot more resources and money thrown at it may yield better results. However, that remdesivir was passed so easily despite the problems with it does give me pause. In the rush to get something out there, no one is guaranteeing there won’t be any casualties.

 

[graciew]

I don’t think ( without intending to play the scientist) it will be the same number. Just that it will be hard if not unlikely to remain “ unpolluted”.What I see is that even bastions have had “ that case “ that spread this virus beyond control. As you mentioned, lack of symptoms is in itself an issue.
Uruguay is quite transparent and civic.
Now Brazil north and Argentina to the west, while frontiers are closed, is one thing. But they are dependent on tourism among others .
The rest is a question mark at least for me, and the hopes of a vaccine to land to mitigate.In the meantime we should be mindful that we may be carriers and behave accordingly. Behaviour matters.

 

[Ridgerunner]

As I recall, Ste Therese of Lisieux said when we meet our judgment with God, we will see with utter clarity the full and true nature of everything we ever did. It will be so devastating that, but for the infinite mercy of God, we would instantly throw ourselves into hell. God then offers His mercy, which we are free to accept or reject. If we reject it out of pride, like Satan we will turn it into everlasting hate. “It is not ME who is at fault. It is YOU!!!” we will say and then choose to spend all of eternity cocooned up in our pride and self-worship, i.e. in hell. If we accept His mercy and love (even on earth that’s hard) we will want to be cleansed and will volunteer for purgatory out of our love for Him. Not too many of us will go straight to heaven because we are not sufficiently purged of our pride and self-love.

Makes sense.

 

[Ridgerunner]

As I mentioned before, Fauci does not seem to think any vaccine will have any lasting effect. Most now think recovery will not confer any lasting immunity either. This could be like the coronavirus that is responsible for some 20% of what we think of as “colds”. It never goes away. We never get more than temporary immunity, and as it endlessly circulates through populations, we come to think of it as “just part of life”.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

However, that remdesivir was passed so easily despite the problems with it does give me pause.

Well, it has not exactly “passed”. What happened was in May the FDA issued an Emergency Use Authorization for remdesivir that was very restrictive. Then just a few days ago, the FDA revised the EUA to broaden the applicability beyond what it was. But it is still an EUA. Here is the revised EUA as of August 28th:
https://www.fda.gov/media/137564/download

 

[RidgeSprinter]

Wait till 2 weeks after Labor Day Weekend.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Well, it has not exactly “passed”. What happened was in May the FDA issued an Emergency Use Authorization for remdesivir that was very restrictive. Then just a few days ago, the FDA revised the EUA to broaden the applicability beyond what it was. But it is still an EUA. Here is the revised EUA as of August 28th:
https://www.fda.gov/media/137564/download

Remdesivir should never have got even this much certification. Definite problems with it showing up here in this paper that was published in July:

Safety profile of the antiviral drug remdesivir: An update - PMC

Two major issues: 5% of cases surveyed displayed atrial fibrillation, that’s a 1 in 20 chance of getting a cardiac rhythm disorder that can kill the patient. Another 25% of cases presented hepatic enzyme problems. That’s possible liver damage. Dunno whether there is an amelioration for that or if the hepatic enzyme issues become permanent in which case that is definite liver damage.

While HCQ’s fitness for coronavirus treatment is questioned, its problem profile is nowhere near this bad. Seeing as HCQ been out there for decades as the go to prophylaxis for malaria, lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, there have been plenty of opportunities for the downsides of the side effects to take it out of circulation.

But they allowed remdesivir usage to be expanded in the face of that paper. Their own paper, not some 3rd party conspiracy site you’re constantly on about. What do you think, Leaf, if it isn’t about the money?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Remdesivir should never have got even this much certification.

Apparently the medical professional at the FDA disagree with you. The papers you cite are available to them. You are not bringing any new information to them that they do not already know. The only difference is you evaluate that information one way and they evaluate it a different way.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Apparently the medical professional at the FDA disagree with you. The papers you cite are available to them. You are not bringing any new information to them that they do not already know. The only difference is you evaluate that information one way and they evaluate it a different way.

Well at least I hope they are not giving this to people who already have liver and liver enzyme issues. 25%, doesn’t that say anything to you? Hard to believe they think that’s nothing to be concerned about.

 

[Cathoholic]

Sweden Cries Victory in Battle with Coronavirus​

TOM LITTLE/AFP via Getty Images

THOMAS D. WILLIAMS, PH.D.

6 Sep 2020

Sweden now “has one of the lowest rates of [coronavirus] infections even though it has never adopted a rigid lockdown,” announced the Italian daily Corriere della Sera Saturday.

As many nations struggle with a resumption of the pandemic, in Stockholm the data shows the number of coronavirus infections is clearly descending, the article asserted.

“Sweden has gone from being the country with the most infections in Europe to the safest one,” Dr. Anders Tegnell, the Swedish government’s most consulted epidemiologist, said. “What we see now is that the sustainable policy might be slower in getting results, but it will get results eventually.”…

Unlike its European neighbors, Stockholm chose not to impose lockdown measures, opting instead to emphasize personal responsibility and protection of vulnerable persons. As a result, Sweden kept its schools, businesses, and restaurants open.

According to the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control, last week Sweden had 12 cases per million population while Denmark had 18 and Norway 14. Unlike mid-April when Sweden saw more than 100 deaths per day, today there are no more than two or three deaths. On the contrary, Copenhagen hit a record of the last 4 months on Thursday with 179 infected in 24 hours…

“We interpret this as meaning there is not currently a widespread infection among people who do not have symptoms,” Dr. Tegnell’s deputy at the Public Health Agency of Sweden, Karin Tegmark Wisell said Thursday.

According to Johns Hopkins University, Sweden has seen 5,835 deaths with coronavirus, or 57.3 deaths per 100,000 population. In comparison, Denmark has had 10.82 deaths per 100,000, the Netherlands 36.39 per 100k, Ireland 36.61 per 100k, France 45.87 per 100k, Italy 58.77 per 100k, the UK 62.61 per 100k, Spain 62.96 per 100k, and Belgium 86.68 per 100k. . . .

Sweden Cries Victory in Battle with Chinese Coronavirus

 

[Lee3]

How could anyone consider Sweden a success with so many deaths?

I find it tragic that society does not value elderly people anymore and that they are just seen as “collateral damage” to keep our economy thriving.

If it was people of working age that were most of the deaths from Covid then perhaps we could say ok, but the reality that it’s mostly old people… and people applaud this “tactic”…what on earth does this say about us as a society?

 

[Lee3]

I’m glad that someone else can see the tragedy of this mindset.

Is there anything we can do though?
Sometimes I feel powerless, as devaluing the elderly seems to have become the default in our western countries and it feels like swimming upstream when you try to suggest a different way because it’s like nobody is open to it.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

How could anyone consider Sweden a success with so many deaths?

Back at you with New York and New Jersey whose deaths per million far exceeded Sweden’s. Heck there are European countries that locked down and still have death rates per million higher than Sweden’s. UK and Belgium, just to name two. The other Scandinavian countries that are thrown in our faces are still in lockdown mode, they’re going to get cases until they hit Sweden level saturation sooner or later. Their choice. Due to the difficulty with coronavirus vaccines in the past, I’m not exactly optimistic about vaccine efficacy if the game plan is to wait on them.

This isn’t to say two wrongs make a right. Nor is it to say deaths mean nothing.

But it is to say Sweden made it to the other side with their economy still alive and more importantly, not needing to wait for a vaccine with its attendant uncertainties, while we are still in lockdown mode in most states and countries, with the self administered destruction of the economy. For a virus that has killed less than 9000 people under the age of 50 in all of the US, yet we held the younger people down and continue to hold them down.

 

[Lee3]

I’m not from the USA but as far as I’m aware, New York was very complacent and nonchalant in its response to Covid. At least in the beginning, I don’t know about now?
Most of England’s cases are apparently young people (unlike elderly elsewhere) and is likely due to because they refused to stop socializing plus also cases in overcrowded migrant neighborhoods.

If you think USA is bad, try living in Melbourne Australia!
Full lockdown mode, gone completely totalitarian with police even physically forcing masks onto people who aren’t wearing a mask etc.
Intimidating and arresting “defiant” little old ladies etc…

I personally do believe that younger people should sacrifice for the elderly but at the same time I believe the method of locking down everyone in nursing homes together is wrong. They became breeding grounds for the virus (at least in my country) and the virus was brought in by low paid casual workers who would take shifts at various nursing homes. Many elderly in nursing homes have died.

Surely a better plan then locking immunologically vulnerable people together in these home would have been for the governments to insist all families took their loved ones back to their own houses and isolated with them which would have limited their exposure to “care workers” etc?

What I also don’t understand is that in some circumstances dying elderly were not allowed to see their family, or family was not even told of their dying or death!

How on earth can the government or aged care providers claim to be doing all this out of caring for the elderly if on the other hand they are acting like this?!

 

[Sarcelle]

How could anyone consider Sweden a success with so many deaths?

I find it tragic that society does not value elderly people anymore and that they are just seen as “collateral damage” to keep our economy thriving.

If it was people of working age that were most of the deaths from Covid then perhaps we could say ok, but the reality that it’s mostly old people… and people applaud this “tactic”…what on earth does this say about us as a society?

It doesn’t say much to be honest.

Isn’t Sweden facing a birth dearth? Too many elderly on social security?

This is how they get rid of the excess elderly population without enforcing mandatory euthanasia.

As for those who think the US ought to copy Sweden, keep in mind Sweden has healthcare available to all, its population is relatively healthy. Compare this to the US, who has healthcare only available to those who managed to keep their jobs and has a very large segment of obese people. COVID will be deadlier to those who are obese be they young or old. We shouldn’t try to emulate Sweden when we have none of the advantages the Swedes have.

 

[Lee3]

@Sarcelle Horrific to think about…

 

[Sarcelle]

Do you live in Melbourne, Australia?

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

If you think USA is bad, try living in Melbourne!
Full lockdown mode, gone completely totalitarian with police even physically forcing masks onto people who aren’t wearing a mask etc.

They are getting away with it because they disarmed everyone they could long ago and that makes it a lot easier to control the population. That has been the first principle of every authoritarian to totalitarian regime: to control the people, the regime first has to disarm them. All those gun confiscation proponents should notice that this is the logical outcome to what they propose.

Remember they are doing this for a virus that has killed less than 1000 persons in the entire country of 25.5m population. By comparison the US state of California (~39.5m population) has 740k cases and almost 14k dead, but they’re not shutdown as much as Melbourne is.

In any case, the country in general and Melbourne/Victoria in particular will eventually pay the price economically and politically for what they have done to their citizens. As will all regions that went overboard with lockdowns.

 

[tomarin]

I don’t know much about politics in Australia, but this is the first time I’ve heard that it’s a totalitarian state. When did that happen?