Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong

[Cathoholic]

Sarcelle . . . .

If you are in favor of only isolating those at risk and things like hypertension, diabetes and obesity are risk factors, you realize that a huge portion of the US will still be isolated right?

I have always been in favor of that (on their own).

What I am NOT in favor of is GOVERNMENT mandating such unscientific actions and IMPOSING this upon citizens.

Just like I have always been in favor of such INDIVIDUAL actions during flu season too.

 

[Sarcelle]

So take off the restrictions and trust people to do the right thing?

Just like I have always been in favor of such INDIVIDUAL actions during flu season too.

People don’t self-isolate during the flu season. They certainly won’t isolate themselves with COVID.
I cannot count the number of times I have seen people get sick in the work place due to others with flu coming in to work and we have a vaccine.

Is it really going to be better with COVID?

 

[Cathoholic]

Sarcelle . . .

trust people to do the right thing?

You are evidently surprised at this.

First of all, “the right thing” is not imposing unscientific Government mandates upon citizens.

Also . . . . people get to decide for themselves what the “right thing” is for themselves.

So yes. Trust the people in general and not politicians to make such decisions.

Sarcelle . . .

People don’t self-isolate during the flu season.

How would you know that?

(I am a cancer patient and I self-isolate when I think it is appropriate. Some do. Some don’t. Some like me do sometimes. It is their decision. And they are the ones who must live or die with the consequences.)

 

[Sarcelle]

I certainly don’t trust politicians.

However you mentioned the government imposed restrictions as being unscientific. What is the scientific way to deal with COVID?

 

[Cathoholic]

What is the scientific way to deal with COVID?

We don’t know.

If you allow leftists Government to make every decision for you, they will make every decision for you. That is the way leftists think. They look at you as a “beast”. Incapable of making your own decisions.

Then also inflate their own view of their own decision-making ability (or inability) and they begin to dream-up utterly ridiculous propositions because of the way they think.

Before you know it, they will in some cases be mandating masks for electronic communication.

Oh wait. What’s this?!

Wisconsin state agency tells employees to wear masks during Zoom calls, even if home alone​

Wisconsin state agency tells employees to wear masks during Zoom calls, even if home alone World News

The ridiculousness of these OVERBEARING Government people know no bounds. . . . (Whaaat! No mask requirement with phone calls??!!) . HEALTH Published 3 days ago Last Update 2 days ago Wisconsin state agency tells employees to wear masks during Zoom calls, even if home alone State workers urged to set safety example for others By Daniella Genovese | Fox News Moms create coronavirus solutions for kids: Why they say their PPE face shields are more effective than cloth masks Little Lives …

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt . . .

Changes to behavior even though they weren’t government mandated.

That’s the point!

Just tell the people the recomendations (Sweden didn’t even do that), and there ya have it.

You just made my point about the lack of necessity of Government MANDATES.

Thank you Thbolt.

.

.

Thbolt . . .

Ha, that’s cute. You won’t answer my questions, but you expect me to answer yours.

When they are not questions with built-in presuppositions, common sense and the data I provided answer your “questions” here Thbolt with a modicum of review (even on this thread) gives you what you needed.

I asked you to tell me . . . .

On June 19th there was 1209 cases. Now according to you there are 200.

What are the non-immunity reasons for this dramatic decrease if they (Sweden) are not isolating healthy people, masking-up society, and social distancing?

And what do you think happens immunologically Thbolt,
to people that have been infected,
survive and are now NOT infected?

And you not only won’t but you can’t without undermining your own arguments.

Common sense and a little research could get you to ask yourself those questions Thbolt before you attempt to respond.

I guess the first thing I would recomend though is reading the article before trying to be “cute”.

 

[Lee3]

I understand what you are saying but I’m not sure from this we can take that Sweden was a success. Is it that Sweden’s a success or is it that other countries handled it poorly?

Sure, if it’s a case of the lesser of two evils, but I’d rather no evils

I.e, maybe instead of full lockdowns it would have been better to just have immediately stopped all air travel, remove elderly from nursing homes, close pubs, clubs, and other venues limiting numbers, but allow other businesses to remain open?

There was so many mixed messages and “nonsense” told in the media in the beginning such as claiming that Covid could not be caught through air travel, only to later change the story…

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt’s reasoning why the Swedes are doing so well . . .

Well, actually I pointed out two possibilities which were that the Swedes changed their behavior because they care about each other . . .

So they did NOT care about each other in June, but now they “got care”?

.

that travel decreasing within the EU slowed the spread.

Travel was just as fast or slow within the EU in June as now.

Why would that disproprtionately affect Sweden?

I don’t think you have offered evidence of anything Thbolt except your own conjecture.

Cathoholic to Thbolt . . .

On June 19th there was 1209 cases. Now according to you there are 200.

What are the non-immunity reasons for this dramatic decrease if they (Sweden) are not isolating healthy people, masking-up society, and social distancing?

And what do you think happens immunologically Thbolt,
to people that have been infected,
survive and are now NOT infected?

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt’s thinking on WHY NO Government mandates are OK in Sweden
but they are a necessity in America
(while ignoring other countries around the world who also have strict Government mandates) . . .

Keep in mind that the Swedes might be a lot more willing to follow these recommendations as they might not find it is Communist or from the devil as so many Americans seem to.

To the readers here. Recall according to Thbolt these are the (Swedes) guys who Thbolt implied did not care about each other in June, but now have got “care”.

So the bad guy is Americans because they are suspicious of communist type of influence in Thbolt’s analysis (“they might not find it is Communist or from the devil as so many Americans seem to”).

Why do you think people will read your reply and not think the reply is a rather self-destructive (Americans bad! But although Swedes WERE bad, now Swedes good) outlook Thbolt?

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt . . .

June is a particularly relevant date in this.

June is very relevant Thbolt.

Look at their curves and you will see their peak then.

Thbolt . . .

the lack of travel may have caused the spread to slow in all of Europe.

So what?

You would not expect proprtions to change unless there was some other factor(s) involved.

Thbolt . . .

I haven’t read any Swedes claim that wearing a mask is a Communist plot. I have read that quite a bit from Americans.

Thbolt again . . .

. . . but I will say that a great deal of Americans are more than willing to ignore science because they are told by their favorite radio show talk host or website that the wearing of masks are a communist plot . . .

Well go ahead and share this with me then.

And WHY did Sweden NOT think of this? And how much Swede do you read Thbolt?

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt . . .

It’s not really hard to figure out. The Swedish government failed its people; hence the almost 600 dead from COVID per million.

Yet New York state’s rate is three times higher (as per earlier in this thread).

Would you say New York State has failed its people too?

And the New York State long term care facility death rate is certainly astronomically higher.

Would you say Democrat Governor Andrew Cuomo has failed the elderly New Yorkers too?

Or is his stuff OK?

 

[AlNg]

New York state’s rate is three times higher (as per earlier in this thread).

That is because masks and lockdowns don’t work. They are counterproductive and only result in more people getting sick and being killed. All they do is throw people out of work, destroy businesses, produce anxiety and promote depression, both mental depression and economic depression. Lockdowns have contributed to economic chaos, increased tensions between races, and to the massive destruction we see as our cities and local businesses are burning down. The shutdown has put tens of millions of babies at risk due to cancelled or delayed vaccination services. Nancy Pelosi has given us a good example of why it makes no sense to wear a mask and shut down businesses such as salons.
The lockdowns could cause the death of over a million children and a 45 percent increase in child mortality.

Unicef warns lockdown could kill more than Covid-19 as model predicts 1.2 million child deaths

 

[Cathoholic]

AINg . . .

That is because masks and lockdowns don’t work. They are counterproductive and only result in more people getting sick and being killed. All they do is throw people out of work, destroy businesses, produce anxiety and promote depression, both mental depression and economic depression. Lockdowns have contributed to economic chaos . .

Great point.

Leftist Houston is a prime example that is being mentioned here on another thread.

Evictions. I have no words World News

PaulinVA . . . My heart aches. My heart aches too. The conservatives here have been warning of this for many months. How with wrecking the economy hurts the most vulnerable. How this is going to leave the most vulnerable (especially the immigrant) open to dishonest labor practices. How artificially shutting down the economy, results in fighting COVID from a proverbial “Venezuela position” (as it is for these folks). The “covid economy” that was talked about in the video was self-destruc…

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt . . .

Once in the country, it took a few months to burn itself out.

How could it “burn itself out” with no immunity Thbolt?

And how much Swede do you read Thbolt?

Thbolt . . .

All sorts of Swede, some Klingon too.

There ya have it.

A rhetorical admission of Thbolt conjecture.

.

Thbolt . . .

Yes, it is peaking in June

Well THAT is WHY it is relevant Thbolt.

You would not expect proprtions to change unless there was some other factor(s) involved.

Thbolt contradicting himself suggesting this SHOULD be proportional (as no other factors changed) . . .

It slowed in all of Northern Europe around the same time.

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt . . .

I am somewhat sympathetic to places that were hit early such as Italy, Spain and New York as I don’t think they knew how to handle the crisis well.

Well there were plenty of people in Washington State who were hit at LTCFs earlier that thought Cuomo ordering infected patients INTO nursing homes was a disaster.

Even posters here at CAF were saying what a big mistake that was.

Spain is not relevant. If you have been reading the threads here you know Spain got burned using bad tests (from China if I recall correctly).

These COULD have been some of the same tests many of the leftist sympathizers here even were complaining about the Trump administrstion not using.

When the tests proved bad and resulted in many deaths from the wrong “test” information in other countries, nobody apologized for the criticism they blamed President Trump for.

There was enormous unhappiness in Spain with their socialist government from the people of Spain.

I not only posted about it, but I posted about it directly from some Spain news"paper" sources as well.

The socalized medicine in Italy proved to be a disaster in a crisis. My friend from Italy complained loudly about it to me calling Italy’s health system a disasterous “Bernie” healthcare system.

I think you should just admit the obvious.

This (New York disaster) was on Andrew Cuomo.

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt . . .

I think people that get it will have immunity, hopefully for a long time. It looks like at least 4 months. Also, it can burn itself out if people who get it don’t give it to other people by quarantining themselves.

I think people that get it will have immunity . . .

Well Thbolt. You just got done telling me about all the cases there are in Sweden.

Now you are admitting that those people aquire immunity.

Do you understand that you are admitting to me that there is immunity, but you seem to deny the effect of that immunity.

You were so pressed to make that point you changed my “immunity” to your “herd immunity”.

Also, it can burn itself out if people who get it don’t give it to other people by quarantining themselves.

Then let them quarantine “themselves”.

If you think that is applicable to Sweden you are making my point about Government mandates being unnecessary.

If you don’t think this is applicable to Sweden, WHY bring it up in this context? And then you need to explain WHY Sweden is doing as well as it is.

The fact is, masking up, social distancing, and quarantining of healthy individuals are all invented non-scientific ineffective parameters when appled to a society at large.

Sweden is proving that.

And the only reason Sweden didn’t prove it earlier is because all those parameters do is flatten the curve. Not prevent COVID cases.

Here it is again:

From here . . .

As Dr. Lisa Maragakis, Senior Director of Infection Prevention at Johns Hopkins Medical School explained, flattening the curve means that “ the same large number of patients arrived at the hospital at a slower rate. [emphasis mine]”

That is the whole point of what the WHO has been saying as well as the Swedes themselves.

The Swedes have not self-destructed their economy AND they are doing close to as well as other countries over-all and in the long run they will do as well.

You don’t see that.

That is WHY you keep recomending these non-scientific inventions.

These unscientific interventions are FEELINGS based (not science-based). At least when applied to a society at large.

Yet the World Health Organization and the Swedes themselves recomend a different path than you do.

And the Swedes and the WHO are correct here and you are wrong.

 

[Ridgerunner]

In any case, the country in general and Melbourne/Victoria in particular will eventually pay the price economically and politically for what they have done to their citizens. As will all regions that went overboard with lockdowns.

Most likely all they have done is slow down the train, not stopped it.

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt . . .

Now, if that number reflected a tenth of the people who had COVID, then the number of people that have had COVID in Sweden is only a tenth of the total population, which won’t get you to herd immunity.

You keep equivocating to “herd” immunity when I am not.

Apart from “herd” immunity, do you think any of these post-infected people have ANY immunity?

(Quit artificially changing my argument to “herd” immunity to suit you.)

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt . . . .

Now, a valid comparison would be to say, how is Sweden currently different than Norway? Has Norway self-destructed their economy? What is Norway currently doing? I keep waiting for that, but you never provide it.

You think about it Thbolt.

You think about what happens when enough people stay home from work or are not allowed to work.

Use common sense when you think it through.

Ask yourself if it financially affects society in proportion to the people who WERE PRODUCTIVE,
who are now UNPRODUCTIVE.

Ask yourself if that entails a drop-off in PRODUCTIVITY.

Ask yourself what happens when a person is not allowed to make a living.

Evictions. I have no words World News

PaulinVA . . . My heart aches. My heart aches too. The conservatives here have been warning of this for many months. How with wrecking the economy hurts the most vulnerable. How this is going to leave the most vulnerable (especially the immigrant) open to dishonest labor practices. How artificially shutting down the economy, results in fighting COVID from a proverbial “Venezuela position” (as it is for these folks). The “covid economy” that was talked about in the video was self-destruc…

Think it through Thbolt.

 

[Cathoholic]

Thbolt . . .

Ah, so what does Sweden have exactly?

Just what I said.

Immunity.

Is it enough yet to define it as “hard immunity”?

No. Not yet. But it is enough to nose them ahead of some of their neighbors already (see the articles I have provided).

Theoretically, this will continue to improve. Not each week necessarily, but on a long slow trajectory.

That is WHY you and
The World Health Organization
are at odds over this.

And you are wrong and the World Health Organization is correct here.