Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong

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new-kirishitan said:
This is untrue. Japan is one of the LAST countries to close its borders, only doing it in March, long after the USA closed its border to ALL Chinese nationals back in February.
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Japan took escalating action starting in early Feb
  • On 3 February, the Japanese government announced entry restrictions for all foreign citizens who had had a travel history to and from [Hubei Province] or had a Chinese passport issued from there
  • On 12 February, the Japanese government announced entry restrictions for all foreign citizens who had a travel history to and from [Zhejiang Province] or had a Chinese passport issued from there.
  • On 5 March, Japan announced quarantine restrictions for all visitors arriving from China and [South Korea]
Also, considering their low number of infections, they were very preemptive.
 
Motherwit . . . .
Swedens approach will only ever be vindicated by history if Denmark, Norway and Finland, the comparable countries, end up with a comparable death toll when the pandemic is over.
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This (wrongly) assumes the only factors to be considered in Sweden’s death tolls are societal mask wearing (no evidence, not even a little bit), quarantining healthy people (absolutely no evidence), and societal social distancing (some evidence in controlled circumstances, none on a societal level).
 
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90% are elders with lesser T cells and underlying medical conditions, 50% from nursing homes where wastes are often every where. When covid first started most the elders died at home, not at the hospitals.
 
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Thbolt . . .
Then why IS Sweden’s death rate so much higher than their neighbors?
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Emphasis mine.

This is false.

I just showed you the death rate is approaching ZERO in Sweden now but it doesn’t matter.

These are FAKE premises that some in the media are attempting to feed the public.

Here it is again
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Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong World News
I saw this Government heavy-handedness below in Spain and with THIS kind of corona enFORCEment thought . . . . How is their deaths compared to Sweden at this time? Watch: Lifeguard Arrested, Led Away in Handcuffs by Hazmat Cops for ‘Surfing with Coronavirus’ 11,423 [Spain Beach] Screengrab / @JavierSanz Oliver JJ Lane 9 Sep 2020 Remarkable footage has revealed the moment police officers — dressed head-to-toe in hazmat suits — frogmarched a young woman up a beach in handcuffs after she we…
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A proper question would heve been . . .
Then why WAS Sweden’s death rate so much higher than their neighbors?
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I would suggest reading the articles and viewing the video links if you really want to know this question’s answer too.

The answers are mostly here (admitedly not all, but some).
 
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Thbolt . . .
Sweden has a much higher death rate than its neighbors and the fact that Sweden’s death rate is approaching zero is great, but not telling since the death rate of Sweden’s neighbors is pretty much zero as well.
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You are assuming again Thbolt.

In this case you are assuming the COVID pandemic now ends and the numbers are final.

You are ignoring the future projections.

You are also ignoring . . .

If Sweden had many more cases of COVID before, they have many more people with immunity now.

The other countries do not have such immunity. By definition.

The answers ARE here but as you frequently admit to not reading and viewing threads and their links, my suggestion is to change that approach and go back and re-read and view the thread links.

You will find those answers Thbolt if you want to. At least most of them.
 
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Thbolt . . .
They didn’t treat people infected with COVID but just administered morphine and let them suffocate to death.
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You are correct here!

And I join you (presumably you agree with me here) in condemning that action from Sweden.

Basically they murdered their elderly patients.

Absolutely inappropriate socialized medicine care
(or any other kind of medical “care”).

They basically killed their elderly by giving them respiratory inhibitors (narcotics) when they needed respiratory help.

Their individual patient care models I will join you in criticizing.

Sweden’s epidemiologic public healthcare model though is working.

By the way, it is the same epidemiologic public healthcare model in those areas
(no mandated widespread masks, no widespread quarantining HEALTHY individuals, no widespread social distancing)
that America has been using in the past recently for influenza pandemics (including the Obama administration back in 2009) which probably resulted in MORE U.S. life-years lost in America then, than corona virus has now (although admitedly I have not done the math on that).
 
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Thbolt . . .
Please provide future projections.
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No but I won’t ignore them either as your paradigm does.

Use common sense Thbolt. The countries with less immunity have . . .well . . . less immunity.

The mandated public healthcare measures that you keep clinging to
(masking, isolating healthy people, widespread partially arbitrary social distancing)
were never put in place to STOP the virus.

They were put in place to flatten the curve.

The goal was not to over-run the healthcare system.

This does NOT get rid of viral infections Thbolt.

I have told you that many times (but you keep ASSUMING against epidemiologic data) that it DOES.

And I can’t help you there Thbolt.

But for everyone else . . .

Flattening the curve just changes the “when” the infections occur. Not the “if” or the severity.

From here . . .
As Dr. Lisa Maragakis, Senior Director of Infection Prevention at Johns Hopkins Medical School explained, flattening the curve means that “ the same large number of patients arrived at the hospital at a slower rate. [emphasis mine]”
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Thbolt . . .
So, you make claims based on future projections and then refuse to provide them. Well, then I guess I’ll just go with the data I have, which is that Sweden has 5 to 10 times the death rate of their neighbors and shouldn’t be followed as an example.
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Well then you are not going with their “death rate”.

You are going with their PAST death rate.

(And I agree their [“kill 'em”] patient-care model should not be followed. It should be condemned.
But you are admixing patient care with public health approaches which would have been wrong with the USA strategy in 2009, and is wrong with the Sweden approach in 2020. You are conflating things that are not related to the degree you are thinking they are, then pulling out inaccurate conclusions based on what “you will go with”. It is FEELINGS-based epidemiology.)
 
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Thbolt shows us how to argue without a distinction between the present tense and the past tense.
 
Thbolt said:
You can’t get to a Sweden solution without enduring what Sweden had to go through. So, past for Sweden, without evidence it really helps because no one can provide future projections or the percentage of Swedes that are now immune…future for anyone that decides this plan worked.
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Most countries are going to get the Sweden outcome sooner or later regardless of methodology. Maybe not as bad for seniors since we should have a better handle on their treatment. It’s just that most countries opted for later while Sweden to chose to face it head on and we’re starting to see how well that’s working out for both methods. Which is to say not that well for the “later” camp thanks to the economic damage we are continuing to do to ourselves.
 
Thbolt . . .
So, past for Sweden, without evidence . . .
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Interesting you SAY you are looking for “evidence” when your whole assumption, your entire presupposition has none.
 
Thbolt . . .
So, it’s really on you to back up your assumptions by providing . . .
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My “assumptions” are "backed up Thbolt.

It is your’s that are not.

And THAT is WHY you think you know better
than the WHO on this, but you are wrong.

.

For everyone else. The economic fallout for all of this is not benign (yet look at the above posts. Ask yourself where on even ONE POST Thbolt has taken this into consideration instead of calling for a sociology study that he can then reject).

This is part of WHY I mentioned common sense needs to be employed.

Feelings are not good enough.

“I’m starving now”: World faces unprecedented hunger crisis amid coronavirus pandemic​

BY DEBORA PATTA, HALEY OTT

UPDATED ON: MAY 2, 2020 / 7:03 PM / CBS NEWS

It’s Friday morning in Alexandra township – a poor neighborhood on the outskirts of South Africa’s largest city, Johannesburg – and dozens of people are gathered in a field outside a food distribution point, hoping today might be the day they get something to eat.

“If you’re hungry, it’s easy to get sick from stress and everything,” says Mduduzi Khumalo, who’s been lining up every day for two weeks. To get food your name has to be on the list and, so far, despite registering multiple times, his hasn’t been.

Khumalo worked as a delivery man before South Africa’s coronavirus lockdown decimated his income. His children used to get two meals a day at school, but schools are closed now. Every day, the kids wait for him at the family’s tiny home, and every day brings the same bad news.

“They know that if I don’t get anything for them, it’s over,” Khumalo tells CBS News.

Famines “of biblical proportions”​

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Residents of Diepsloot in South Africa wait for food but go home empty handed of Friday, April 23. CBS NEWS

The coronavirus pandemic has left the world facing an unprecedented hunger crisis. The United Nations World Food Program (WFP) has warned that by the end of the year, more than 260 million people will face starvation – double last year’s figures.

“In a worst-case scenario, we could be looking at famine in about three dozen countries,” . . .
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To the readers here also. Ask yourself how many posts above has Thbolt considered these other proverbial “nuclear fallouts” from his thesis. . . .


‘Never Been Busier’: Experts Say Domestic Violence Surged in NYC Amid Lockdown​

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MARK RALSTON/AFP via Getty Images

EDWIN MORA

28 Jul 2020 Washington, DC

Domestic violence across the five boroughs of New York City soared at the peak of the state’s coronavirus lockdown, recently unveiled data reportedly show, confirming predictions from experts, assertions from law enforcement officials, and echoing global trends. . . .
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.

Even a few Democrats can see this disaster.

Democrat Laments Coronavirus Lockdown’s ‘Negative Impact’ on Drug Addiction Getting Ignored​

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Scott Olson/Getty Images

EDWIN MORA

9 Jul 2020 Washington, DC

The coronavirus lockdowns are fueling a surge in the number of drug overdoses across the country, one of the Democrats who competed against Joe Biden for the party’s presidential nomination recently acknowledged.

“Overdoses nationally jumped 18 percent in March, 29 percent in April, and 42 percent in May – probably similar stats exist for alcoholism,” . . .
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Santa Ana Police: Robberies Soar 50% as Suspects Exploit Mask Recommendation​

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Geoffrey Fairchild/Flickr

JOSHUA CAPLAN

15 May 2020

Santa Ana, California, is experiencing a surge in crime as suspects exploit a national recommendation to wear masks to prevent the spread of the Chinese coronavirus.

The Santa Ana Police Department told CBS News Los Angeles that the city has seen a 50 percent spike in robberies since California Gov. Gavin Newsom (D) announced a sweeping stay-at-home order in March. Speaking to the news outlet, one gas station clerk recounted how he was held up at gunpoint by a masked thief last Friday at 2 a.m. The clerk said the suspect didn’t arouse suspicion because mask coverings are now the norm, allowing the thief to catch him off guard when he pulled a gun on him . . .
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Rep. Thomas Massie: Shutdown Forcing Farmers to Euthanize Millions of Animals, Food Shortages Incoming​

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Sandy Millar
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None of these things have even been acknowledged by Thbolt here. Go back and re-read the posts.

Lots of talk about infection rate and the death rate from Thbolt.
Both of which I agree with that they need to be taken into consideration on.
And both of which are lamentable.

I HAVE acknowledged these things.

But you need MORE than infection rates and death rates from a virus (or in the case of Sweden, deaths from giving their elderly coronavirus patients morphine, instead of antibiotics, steroids, fluids, and ventilators to get them over the hump when needed. Basically they were euthenizing or killing off their elderly infected patients if the above is correct.)

But neither of which (infection rates or death rates) are remedied by lockdowns, quaratining HEALTHY people, masking up with known absolute seive dimensions for corona virus (some of these masks have even been shown to jettison out the virus particles FARTHER AWAY to potentially infect MORE PEOPLE beyond an already-artificial limit of six feet) and arbitrary social distancing regulations by a government.

Common sense tells us a TRUE risk-benefit ratio
takes or at least attempts to take
ALL the FACTORS into consideration.

Not just a selected two factors (as Thebolt has done here with infection and death rates).
 
A Nordic study out today finds that at this point the benefit to the economy due to Sweden’s approach is minimal.

In a new study, we use novel high-frequency (weekly) regional unemployment and furlough spells from all four Nordic countries (Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Finland) to evaluate the economic effects of NPIs (Juranek et al. 2020). We employ these data to study the differential labour market effects of one of the most prominent policy variations observed during the COVID-19 pandemic. Sweden departed substantially from its neighbours in the response to the spread of the disease, refraining from closing schools, shutting down businesses or shops. Our estimation strategy draws on this natural experiment in the Nordics, comparing countries which were similarly exposed to the COVID-19 pandemic but responded to it in different ways.

Since all Nordic countries were similarly exposed to the pandemic but only Sweden refrained from strict NPIs, a comparison of unemployment and furlough spells between Sweden and the other Nordic countries allows us to study the labour market effects of the restrictions.

Our study indicates that NPI ( non-pharmaceutical interventions ie social measures and lockdowns) strictness is not irrelevant in terms of labour market performance.

 
Motherwit . . .
A Nordic study out today finds that at this point the benefit to the economy due to Sweden’s approach is minimal.
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“Minimal” for who?

Because these worldwide actions have worldwide consequences.

We’ve already seen them even here in America.
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Evictions. I have no words World News
PaulinVA . . . My heart aches. My heart aches too. The conservatives here have been warning of this for many months. How with wrecking the economy hurts the most vulnerable. How this is going to leave the most vulnerable (especially the immigrant) open to dishonest labor practices. How artificially shutting down the economy, results in fighting COVID from a proverbial “Venezuela position” (as it is for these folks). The “covid economy” that was talked about in the video was self-destruc…
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People right here on CAF have been impacted more than a “minimal” way.

How much starvation needs to occur before it is no longer considered “minimal”?
 
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Cathoholic said:
Motherwit . . .
A Nordic study out today finds that at this point the benefit to the economy due to Sweden’s approach is minimal.
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The study compared the 4 Nordic countries as they have similar populations, economies and cultures. At this point the minimal economic benefit of no lock down traded for the 10 to 15 times higher death rate, doesn’t show Sweden’s approach was what they’d predicted.
Cathoholic said:
People right here on CAF have been impacted more than a “minimal” way.

How much starvation needs to occur before it is no longer considered “minimal”?
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The studies showed that even in Sweden’s no lockdown, people have not served to support the economy that well. Even if all the covid deniers spend as normal, there are enough people that believe in the severity of the disease to minimize their risk taking. It’s a fallacy to think that dispensing with lockdowns and social measures is going to mean the economy will thrive.
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Motherwit . . .
At this point the minimal economic benefit of no lock down traded for the 10 to 15 times higher death rate
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What do you think is responsible for that Sweden “death rate”?

Do you think quarantining some more healthy people would have done the trick?

Perhaps a few more masks that have microscopic pores larger than the virus? Is THAT what you think would “save Sweden” from their death rate?

Maybe they could get more cops to arrest people who are too close in an arbitrary distance?

Do you think Sweden administering narcotics to elderly people who are having difficulty breathing, is therapeutic? Do you even think that is “neutral” Motherwit?

.
Even if all the covid deniers spend as normal . . .
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What is a “covid denier”?

Just WHAT do you think is responsible for that Sweden “death rate”?
 
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