Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong

[LeafByNiggle]

Sweden has half the population of New York and three times the land area. That’s one sixth the population density. That makes it easier to control the virus. Also Sweden has a better social safety net so that those that do get sick can get care and stay home and recover instead of feeling forced to go to work and spread the virus. That makes it easier too.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

New York’s elderly death toll per capita was considerably higher than Sweden’s yet you’ve given them a pass because that was months ago. The points you make for New York are valid, but still no such pass for Sweden, that’s the point I’m making here. In other words, you’re still holding on to the idea that Sweden not only got it wrong back then, they’re still getting it wrong now.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Priests can excuse people from attendance at Mass. Don’t have to keep the numbers in the church down to do that. In my parish, there is a special radio broadcast of the Mass. People can, if they wish, park in the parking lot, turn it on, listen to the Mass, then a person who’s all masked and gloved up brings them Communion in their cars. Everybody else is inside taking whatever precautions they think they should.

 

[Ridgerunner]

That’s one sixth the population density. That makes it easier to control the virus

Good things Swedes never have to buy food or go to the doctor or dentist like they do in New York City.

Also Sweden has a better social safety net so that those that do get sick can get care and stay home and recover instead of feeling forced to go to work and spread the virus. That makes it easier too.

Which U.S. employers make employees with Covid come to work?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

The points you make for New York are valid, but still no such pass for Sweden, that’s the point I’m making here. In other words, you’re still holding on to the idea that Sweden not only got it wrong back then, they’re still getting it wrong now.

The question is not is Sweden doing better than New York. The question is Sweden doing better than Sweden could have done with more restrictive guidance? Since we cannot actually explore alternate time lines without a flux capacitor, the next best thing is to compare Sweden to countries the are more like it in other ways - not to compare it to New York.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

The question is not is Sweden doing better than New York. The question is Sweden doing better than Sweden could have done with more restrictive guidance? Since we cannot actually explore alternate time lines without a flux capacitor, the next best thing is to compare Sweden to countries the are more like it in other ways - not to compare it to New York.

Then the fair question is to compare not just with the fellow Scandinavian countries as you have insisted on all along, but also with the fellow Schengen Area countries. That’s the part everyone keeps shying away from, but there is plenty of room for comparison there considering the degree of free passage among the countries prior to the pandemic. There Sweden doesn’t suffer so badly in comparison.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

The question is not is Sweden doing better than New York. The question is Sweden doing better than Sweden could have done with more restrictive guidance? Since we cannot actually explore alternate time lines without a flux capacitor, the next best thing is to compare Sweden to countries the are more like it in other ways - not to compare it to New York.

Then the fair question is to compare not just with the fellow Scandinavian countries as you have insisted on all along, but also with the fellow Schengen Area countries. That’s the part everyone keeps shying away from, but there is plenty of room for comparison there considering the degree of free passage among the countries prior to the pandemic. There Sweden doesn’t suffer so badly in comparison.

The comparison should not be just with countries geographically nearby, but countries with similar population density and social structure.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The comparison should not be just with countries geographically nearby,

And here I thought Covid was contagious.

 

[Cathoholic]

LeafByNiggle . . . .

Why are you so anxious to bind people under pain of mortal sin when their bishops are not?

Cut it out.

 

[Cathoholic]

Also you have not answered my concern.

Here it is again . . .

Where do you get THAT alleged motive from what I have written??

No. I have not praised Sweden killing off their elderly Corona virus patients and yes I have criticized it.

Here it is again . . .

I agree their [“kill 'em”] patient-care model should not be followed. It should be condemned.

Didn’t you read this?

I even rhetorically condemned it to YOU in a post (a post you never responded to).

Here is THAT again too . . .

Do you think Sweden administering narcotics to elderly people who are having difficulty breathing, is therapeutic? Do you even think that is “neutral” Motherwit?

 

[Motherwit]

Motherwit . . .

At this point the minimal economic benefit of no lock down traded for the 10 to 15 times higher death rate

The evidence after 5 months is that it’s impossible to keep covid out of nursing homes where there is high rates of community transmission. That is because people need to look after the elderly in care. Nurses, carers, pastoral carers, kitchen staff, cleaners, admin staff. Unless you quarantine the entire workfore of a facility, keeping it away from the vulnerable, community transmission needs to be addressed stringently.

Do you think Sweden administering narcotics to elderly people who are having difficulty breathing, is therapeutic? Do you even think that is “neutral” Motherwit?

One of the main reasons for community lockdown is so that the healthcare system isn’t overwhelmed to the point of not being able to give people sufficient care. I know that you really want to show that there’s no correlation between community transmission and the fate of the vulnerable in care but that just isn’t the case. Without quarantining every person involved in the aged care sector which is impossible, the only way to protect them is with community lockdowns.

 

[Cathoholic]

To the readers here. I asked Motherwit if murdering the elderly (with covid) has any affect on the rate of murdering the elderly (with covid).

Here is the salient portion of the response I got . . .

The evidence after 5 months is that it’s impossible to keep covid out of nursing homes where there is high rates of community transmission. That is because people need to look after the elderly in care. Nurses, carers, pastoral carers, kitchen staff, cleaners, admin staff. Unless you quarantine the entire workfore of a facility, keeping it away from the vulnerable, community transmission needs to be addressed stringently.

.

Motherwit . . .

I know that you really want to show that there’s no correlation between community transmission and the fate of the vulnerable in care . . .

Huh???

Where are you making these motives up from?

(Aside from Motherwit falsely implicitly assuming all elderly Swedes that died came from a nursing home . . . )

Nobody here has driven this fact about the dangers of the elderly in nursing homes during the corona virus pandemic more than me.

Motherwit. If you ever get interested in the facts just search “Andrew Cuomo” and Cathoholic here and read.

In the meantime please stop imugning my motives.

Speaking of you impugning my motives, I already asked you about that in another aspect on this very thread here too.

Here it is yet again . . . .

Where do you get THAT alleged motive from what I have written??

No. I have not praised Sweden killing off their elderly Corona virus patients and yes I have criticized it.

Here it is again . . .

I agree their [“kill 'em”] patient-care model should not be followed. It should be condemned.

Didn’t you read this?

I even rhetorically condemned it to YOU in a post (a post you never responded to).

Here is THAT again too . . .

Do you think Sweden administering narcotics to elderly people who are having difficulty breathing, is therapeutic? Do you even think that is “neutral” Motherwit?

.

Motherwit. Are you even reading my posts??

 

[toddy]

I thought a lot in the past few days about Sweden, and finally I decided if I see them without face masks then would stay far away immediately.

I like their extreme clean life style, but I think high possibly God blessed them to have very strong immune system than other country to protect them from the sickness. They are likely asymptomatic carrying virus without face mask while I am unsure I have strong immune system like them.

Or maybe the strand of covid virus is different in Sweden, smaller and weaker. This must wait for the science find the answer.

For now and future, I must walk away fast for own safety.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

To be sure, no one handled the elderly as badly as NY and NJ did. That is reflected in the death rates of those states being vastly ahead of Sweden’s death rate. As poorly as Sweden handled them, even Sweden’s elderly death rate is still behind that of NY and NJ.

Now we have a better handle on treating the elderly and that is reflected on the improvements in the numbers since those days months ago.

In the meantime, our very own CDC’s data shows the US death toll is minimal for the under 50 set, especially for the under 30 set. But our state governments still insist on preventing many of them from making a living. Haven’t we already done far too much damage to the economy?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I thought a lot in the past few days about Sweden, and finally I decided if I see them without face masks then would stay far away immediately.

I like their extreme clean life style, but I think high possibly God blessed them to have very strong immune system than other country to protect them from the sickness. They are likely asymptomatic carrying virus without face mask while I am unsure I have strong immune system like them.

Or maybe the strand of covid virus is different in Sweden, smaller and weaker. This must wait for the science find the answer.

For now and future, I must walk away fast for own safety.

There could be more than one version of the virus. Probably is. But I doubt Swedes have any better immune systems than anybody else, though there might be some differences. My guess is that they were reasonably careful but otherwise let it run its course. One additional possibility is that perhaps they don’t use immunosuppresants as much as we do. Americans use them for all kinds of conditions, and one has to wonder just a little whether that has caused

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

@toddy @Ridgerunner
I would point out one major difference between Sweden and the US is in the prevalence of comorbidities: the degree of obesity and diabetes is much less in Sweden than the US.

Mapped: The world's most obese countries

Per this source, the US percentage of obese adults is 33% while Sweden’s is 18%.

Countries ranked by Diabetes prevalence (% of population ages 20 to 79)

In this study of diabetes occurrences around the world, the US ranks 43rd while Sweden ranks 155th out of 195 countries surveyed.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

To be sure, no one handled the elderly as badly as NY and NJ did. That is reflected in the death rates of those states being vastly ahead of Sweden’s death rate.

There is no evidence - only speculation - that the NY and NJ death rate was primarily due to the period of placing covid patients in nursing homes. There are other reasons for the high death rate that are being overlooked.

In the meantime, our very own CDC’s data shows the US death toll is minimal for the under 50 set, especially for the under 30 set.

Words like “minimal” are not precise and do not accurately reflect the seriousness of the epidemic.

 

[RidgeSprinter]

I would point out one major difference between Sweden and the US is in the prevalence of comorbidities: the degree of obesity and diabetes is much less in Sweden than the US.

A great number of things are a lot less in Sweden than in the US. Catholicism being one of them. 1.2% of population is Catholic, 0% is Baptist. 61% is Lutheran.

Statistics, Statistics, Statistics.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

There is no evidence - only speculation - that the NY and NJ death rate was primarily due to the period of placing covid patients in nursing homes. There are other reasons for the high death rate that are being overlooked.

I see you’re still in denial. Stop gaslighting us over this.

You thought the critical order lasted just two weeks. You were proved wrong.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

There is no evidence - only speculation - that the NY and NJ death rate was primarily due to the period of placing covid patients in nursing homes. There are other reasons for the high death rate that are being overlooked.

I see you’re still in denial. Stop gaslighting us over this.

You thought the critical order lasted just two weeks. You were proved wrong.

I was not proven wrong about this order not being primarily responsible for the very higher death rate. The real reason is that New York got more travel from Europe very early before it was banned and was infected early, before doctors knew the best treatment protocols. It turned out that ventilators were not the best treatment for most serious cases, and that turn the patient on his stomach and giving him oxygen was often more effective. They did not know this back then. Now, the death rate is much lower, even where the infection rate is high, because of this added knowledge. New York and New Jersey were unlucky enough to have to blaze the trail for everyone else. That is the real reason.