LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
Any viral load at all should be avoided. It is nonsense to do otherwise in the hopes of reaping some benefit.
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Cathoholic
Guest
LeafByNiggle changing my premise . . .
First of all did ANYONE here say we should NOT AVOID viral infections? At least in practicality. Especially regarding Corona virus?
Now let’s talk theoretically.
If you think that nobody should have ANY viral load,
how do you expect to exercise your immune system?
Are you advocating living in a bubble?
Do you understand viral loads HAVE been OBVIOUSLY beneficial in society at times??
The obvious example is a “viral load” of cow pox, yielding
cross-immunologic protection against small pox.
Do you think society would have been better off with any viral load of cow pox avoided (“Any viral load at all should be avoided.” — LeafByNiggle)??
Or do you think there was some “reaping of benefit” from cow pox?
(This above, is an emotional argument. But it is not scientific.)
First of all did ANYONE here say we should NOT AVOID viral infections? At least in practicality. Especially regarding Corona virus?
Now let’s talk theoretically.
If you think that nobody should have ANY viral load,
how do you expect to exercise your immune system?
Are you advocating living in a bubble?
Do you understand viral loads HAVE been OBVIOUSLY beneficial in society at times??
The obvious example is a “viral load” of cow pox, yielding
cross-immunologic protection against small pox.
Do you think society would have been better off with any viral load of cow pox avoided (“Any viral load at all should be avoided.” — LeafByNiggle)??
Or do you think there was some “reaping of benefit” from cow pox?
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LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
C
Cathoholic
Guest
LeafByNiggle . . .
Fair enough.
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
I’m going to suggest reading this study from Japan which had its own approach to Covid-19 that appears to have been successful.
Recall Japan’s numbers of cases and deaths are absurdly low per Worldometers:
Compare the study to the Worldometer numbers and there are some different conclusions that can be drawn.
Recall Japan’s numbers of cases and deaths are absurdly low per Worldometers:
Compare the study to the Worldometer numbers and there are some different conclusions that can be drawn.
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
Continued from last post:
The Japanese did things differently.
They concentrated on the symptomatic cases only and largely ignored the asymptomatic cases. They did not engage in mass-testing; instead, they allowed people who were asymptomatic to spread the disease. That produced many more asymptomatic infections which are harmless yet they build immunity in the population at large. They did this with no vaccine and without having a large number of people die. The study shows how the seropositive rate was built up over the study period.
There were no shutdowns, no mask orders, no lockdowns and only a brief school closure order in a few places, which was quickly dropped.
And … they were right. They made it to the other side and they did it in a way that could have been replicated here and in other countries.
The Japanese did things differently.
They concentrated on the symptomatic cases only and largely ignored the asymptomatic cases. They did not engage in mass-testing; instead, they allowed people who were asymptomatic to spread the disease. That produced many more asymptomatic infections which are harmless yet they build immunity in the population at large. They did this with no vaccine and without having a large number of people die. The study shows how the seropositive rate was built up over the study period.
There were no shutdowns, no mask orders, no lockdowns and only a brief school closure order in a few places, which was quickly dropped.
And … they were right. They made it to the other side and they did it in a way that could have been replicated here and in other countries.
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Cathoholic
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Theo520
Guest
hard to compare with Japan, they are an island nation and really clamped down on travel, so they limited infections severely.
Their fed government can’t mandate shutdowns, it’s a local decision (much like the USA).
Culturally, they are more hygienic and wear masks without a mandate
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...42e284-eea2-11ea-bd08-1b10132b458f_story.html
Their fed government can’t mandate shutdowns, it’s a local decision (much like the USA).
Culturally, they are more hygienic and wear masks without a mandate
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...42e284-eea2-11ea-bd08-1b10132b458f_story.html
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jack63
Guest
567 posts on this thread. Wow!
You know what will be the great Irony if Biden wins…He’s going to tell you the Covid can’t be suppressed, there will be no more lockdowns, and you need to learn to live with it…which is basically what Trump is saying.
I honestly thought lockdowns were the correct choice at first, but I changed my mind. I honestly don’t believe lockdowns ever had a chance, and this dumb idea should never be used again.
I was reading this article last night frustrated by the whole thing. Worth a read…
You know what will be the great Irony if Biden wins…He’s going to tell you the Covid can’t be suppressed, there will be no more lockdowns, and you need to learn to live with it…which is basically what Trump is saying.
I honestly thought lockdowns were the correct choice at first, but I changed my mind. I honestly don’t believe lockdowns ever had a chance, and this dumb idea should never be used again.
I was reading this article last night frustrated by the whole thing. Worth a read…
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tomarin
Guest
Excellent post; exactly what I wished to add but more succinct than I could have been. (I think even the Japanese are surprised they’ve been this successful, as evidenced by the need of some of them to come up with the theory of a mysterious and so far unproven Japanese gene that may confer immunity.)
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Cathoholic
Guest
I talked (here) about Spain, Australia, and the UK. And how all their draconian measures have not shown real benefit.
Yet Sweden now is doing GREAT!
The World Health Organization called Sweden a “model country” for corona virus epidemiologic strategies (epidemiologic strategies. Not Sweden’s individual patient care strategies as their care for the elderly was a disaster. They basically murdered them instead of treating them.)
I showed how despite cases rising, deaths are declining.
Death rates have fallen too. Just like here in America.
The Case Fatality Rate CFR here in America is amazingly low compared to many other countries around the world.
There are dozens of countries with higher case fatality rates than the USA.
This is a great testimony to the health care system here but even more so, the physicians and nurses caring for these patients.
Thanks also to President Trump for making sure we had enough ventilators for the sickest patients. You saved many lives.
@HarryStotle linked a video showing lack of correlation between case spikes and death.
(We knew that was going to happen because the experts told us
the virus would weaken over time,
people would acquire immunity,
and the medical profession would improve at management of these corona virus cases.)
It was excellent. Here it is again.
@Motherwit challenged these numbers and experts saying:
Motherwit . . . .
@Motherwith. You wanted to meet back here. So here we are!
Here are Sweden’s numbers (which is just like the experts cited on the video said would occur) . . . .
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Sweden’s deaths continue to approach ZERO!
Congratulations Sweden!
(minor spell correction)
Yet Sweden now is doing GREAT!
The World Health Organization called Sweden a “model country” for corona virus epidemiologic strategies (epidemiologic strategies. Not Sweden’s individual patient care strategies as their care for the elderly was a disaster. They basically murdered them instead of treating them.)
I showed how despite cases rising, deaths are declining.
Death rates have fallen too. Just like here in America.
The Case Fatality Rate CFR here in America is amazingly low compared to many other countries around the world.
There are dozens of countries with higher case fatality rates than the USA.
This is a great testimony to the health care system here but even more so, the physicians and nurses caring for these patients.
Thanks also to President Trump for making sure we had enough ventilators for the sickest patients. You saved many lives.
@HarryStotle linked a video showing lack of correlation between case spikes and death.
(We knew that was going to happen because the experts told us
the virus would weaken over time,
people would acquire immunity,
and the medical profession would improve at management of these corona virus cases.)
It was excellent. Here it is again.
@Motherwit challenged these numbers and experts saying:
Motherwit . . . .
Here is the salient portion again.
OK. It is now two and a half weeks and the numbers are in.
@Motherwith. You wanted to meet back here. So here we are!
Here are Sweden’s numbers (which is just like the experts cited on the video said would occur) . . . .
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.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
.
Sweden’s deaths continue to approach ZERO!
Congratulations Sweden!
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HarryStotle
Guest
It isn’t clear that masks are even helpful.
Try to explain that data.
Even if we were to grant you that under ideal conditions masks are helpful, most of those wearing masks are not particularly careful about their use and often are abusing the known effective measures because they think the masks will protect them in any case.
Case in point. I live in a small city that mandated masks in late September when we had few active cases because of the fear of a spike. A month later we have higher numbers of cases than ever. A neighboring city about 100 miles away did not mandate masks and their numbers have stayed relatively stable ~20.
Masks could become a nexus or collector of viruses and germs rather than “helpful.”
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Cathoholic
Guest
Rolling trajectory or not.
The deaths clearly are not proportional to the cases.
And there is no “spike” in deaths here.
Just look at the numbers and graphs.
It’s pretty easy to see.
Let me remind you again of what you told me two and a half weeks ago . . . .
The deaths clearly are not proportional to the cases.
And there is no “spike” in deaths here.
Just look at the numbers and graphs.
It’s pretty easy to see.
Let me remind you again of what you told me two and a half weeks ago . . . .
Why not just be glad you were wrong and be happy Sweden is doing so well?
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Cathoholic
Guest
From back in late May (at the height of Sweden’s deaths associated with the Corona virus pandemic). . . .
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And I think this is essentially the same story here . . .
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And I think this is essentially the same story here . . .
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Cathoholic
Guest
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And from last month . . . .
Sweden’s plummeting daily death rate shows ‘pointlessness’ of Melbourne’s lockdown - YouTube.
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Cathoholic
Guest
Motherwit . . .
I didn’t post them for anything other than to see direct video footage of how Sweden has been handling things.
And see it first hand.
So if someone in the future comes on here and (falsely) says, . . .
. . . “Well, there wasn’t a Government MANDATE, but everyone in Sweden was behaving as there was anyway.”
People will be able to see the baloney being shot firsthand.
They will KNOW Swedes were not masking-up etc. because they can SEE the Swedes.
The Swedish case number and death numbers are still not much different compared to the UK and Spain (for example).
Much more for the UK and Spain that has had enormous FORCE of MANDATES.
Admitedly it has been a couple of weeks or so since I looked at those and other countries (outside of the US and Sweden) Worldometer Stats.
Would you like me to go there now and post them here?
Sweden, at least as far as deaths, is going to be very hard to beat.
In other words, despite all this OVER REGULATION by Governments in Europe, Sweden’s numbers (at least as far as deaths) will be excellent. (Yes. More “cases” in the winter. Just like we all knew would happen as people crowd together indoors more in winter months).
Like I said. Would you like me to get and post those numbers?
Yes but so what?
I didn’t post them for anything other than to see direct video footage of how Sweden has been handling things.
And see it first hand.
So if someone in the future comes on here and (falsely) says, . . .
. . . “Well, there wasn’t a Government MANDATE, but everyone in Sweden was behaving as there was anyway.”
People will be able to see the baloney being shot firsthand.
They will KNOW Swedes were not masking-up etc. because they can SEE the Swedes.
The Swedish case number and death numbers are still not much different compared to the UK and Spain (for example).
Much more for the UK and Spain that has had enormous FORCE of MANDATES.
Admitedly it has been a couple of weeks or so since I looked at those and other countries (outside of the US and Sweden) Worldometer Stats.
Would you like me to go there now and post them here?
Sweden, at least as far as deaths, is going to be very hard to beat.
In other words, despite all this OVER REGULATION by Governments in Europe, Sweden’s numbers (at least as far as deaths) will be excellent. (Yes. More “cases” in the winter. Just like we all knew would happen as people crowd together indoors more in winter months).
Like I said. Would you like me to get and post those numbers?
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
Have to remember that lockdowns of the healthy were the major innovation this year. Lockdowns of the healthy had never ever ever been tried before in all of known history. In all previous epidemics and pandemics, it was the sick they locked down or banned from the city or otherwise restricted their movements. In 1918, the most they did was ban large gatherings and suspend schools but they never forced the healthy to stay home. As a result, the economic damage wasn’t that much, at least not anywhere near what we experienced this year.
Lockdowns of the healthy were dreamed up in 2006 by a pair of scientists who were not epidemiologists. More in this article:
I think we can now say they don’t work and that the damage to the economy is simply not worth it. We have Sweden and Japan to look at.
Lockdowns of the healthy were dreamed up in 2006 by a pair of scientists who were not epidemiologists. More in this article:
I think we can now say they don’t work and that the damage to the economy is simply not worth it. We have Sweden and Japan to look at.
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silentwitness
Guest
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