Lockdowns never again: Sweden was right, and we were wrong

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Motherwit said:
There is no disease in history that’s ever resulted in permanent lockdowns/restrictions.
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What do you think will change Motherwit in say, five years to do away with lockdowns, social distancing, and masking-up (unless there is a voluntary attitude change among leftist politicians or a voluntary removal from office of them by the vote)?

What do you see different to NOT make these things PERMANENT?
 
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Cathoholic said:
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Motherwit:
There is no disease in history that’s ever resulted in permanent lockdowns/restrictions.
Click to expand...
What do you think will change Motherwit in say, five years to do away with lockdowns, social distancing, and masking-up (unless there is a voluntary attitude change among leftist politicians or a voluntary removal from office of them by the vote)?

What do you see different to NOT make these things PERMANENT?
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Where is Swine flu, Bird flu, SARS, MERS, Spanish flu and every other flu the world has faced? None resulted in permanent lockdowns. When Spanish flu was prevented from spread after the last wave, it got weak and ineffectual. These types of virus’s have shown to thrive on widespread community transmission but lose potency when deprived of hosts.
 
Motherwit said:
Spanish flu and every other flu the world has faced?
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Treated with Tamiflu.

Bird Flu etc. are not the same as this.

There are similarities and differences.

If this was the same, your people would not be advocating quarantining HEALTHY people and mandated masking-up.

This is the legacy your political people gave us.

And it has been an utter failure.
 
Motherwit said:
I am still amazed to see peoples real self emerge when someone isn’t restraining them. Not very Christian.
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It’s not very Christian to care nothing for the hungry.
Motherwit said:
This is the first modern pandemic and the way it differs from historical pandemics is our ability to medically detect cases quickly, identify clusters and target that infected cluster for quarantine. We couldn’t do it at the beginning of the pandemic because all that testing was being developed. We can do it now and the benefit of early lockdowns that have virtually eradicated community transfer means that life is virtually back to normal in those countries and no need for the whole of society to quarantine when new cases are identified.
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That doesn’t explain the poverty. At all. Lockdowns of the healthy = impoverishment. Not convinced this is an improvement over what happened to the economy during the last much deadlier epidemic than this one. I’m speaking of 1918, of course.
Motherwit said:
What you fail to see is that without stemming the spread of covid, poverty and death are going to drag on for years and years as opposed to months. What part of that do you not understand?

Anti maskers/anti lockdowners from what I gather have not traditionally been advocates for the poor in the past so this newfound care for the poor rings disingenuous as well as flawed logic.
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The Spanish flu lasted two winters. Not years and years.

Using an ad hominem attack to hide your lack of compassion for the hungry. Nice.
LeafByNiggle said:
One of the best examples of virtue-signaling I have ever seen.
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That’s really rich coming from you.

Readers, check out the ad hominems coming out in response to being called out for the lack of compassion for the hungry. I’m right over the target here.
LeafByNiggle said:
The times they appear on camera without a mask you can be sure that they have cleared the area around the speaker, and do wear a mask when around other people. The cameraman is probably 20 feet away, if indeed there is a live cameraman, and not a remote operated camera. It is offensive to hardworking public servants like Dr. Fauci to call his earnest recommendations “posturing”. How do you feel about Fr. Frank Pavone’s public statements being called “posturing?”
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Oh I get it, that was Gavin Newsom’s double in that restaurant, that wasn’t really him. That wasn’t SF Mayor London Breed in that same restaurant the next night, that was actually her double. That wasn’t Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot rallying the troops, that was her double. And so on.

Oh please… :roll_eyes:
 
Want a truly rich example of the small business crushing hypocrisy of our leaders, check out the video that accompanies this tweet. I mean watch that video all the way to the end.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1334993874276786178

Did you watch that video to the end? This happened because movie production companies are exempt from Garcetti’s order. How much did they pay him under the table for that?

I was on the phone with LA-based relatives today. They are livid regarding Garcetti and Newsom. They are all signed up for the Newsom recall. They also told me about LA County Supervisor Sheila Kuehl running off to a restaurant in Santa Monica right after she voted for a lockdown extension. I was incredulous. So I found an article:


That “rules are for the little people” mentality is widespread. One would have to have their head in the sand to not see it. Relatives said even the county sheriffs have told Newsom they’re not going to enforce the order that closely.
 
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Zzyzx_Road said:
The Spanish flu lasted two winters. Not years and years.
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Good point Zzyzx_Road.

Also if I recall correctly (I did not re-look it up) the average age of death with the Spanish Flu was about 25 years old!

Even with lower life expectancies, an incredible amount of average life-years lost.

On the other hand, with coronavirus, the average age of death is about age 82 (slightly higher than the “normal” average age of death which is about age 78).

(I am not suggesting BECAUSE of corona virus these people lived longer.)

In other words corona virus has resulted in, on the average, zero life-years lost. Again. On the average age of death.

But add into this the deaths and destruction associated with politically leftist mandates (mandatory social distancing, quarantining HEALTHY people, and masking-up which are only mitigation efforts), like worldwide starvation (associated with these leftist policies), home loss, people not being able to get the medical care they need (because of wrong headed lockdowns which were never meant to “cure” society of anything-just postpone dealing with it), spousal abuse, suicide and dramatic suicide hotline increases, drug abuse increases, and perhaps most important of all, people unable to receive the Sacraments in many cases, and it is a real disaster.

The left got their way (no serious treatment trials, quarantining HEALTHY people, and masking-up of everyone (recall there are over ten million Americans that have had VOVID and recovered. Yet THEY are still required to “mask-up”. What in the world sense is THAT?? Where is the “science” in THAT?? [Remember this the next time a mm global warming advocate tries to bogusly “science-shame” you. Often the same people that think it is “scientific” that a guy can be a guy one day, a gal the next, and a guy the day after–“gender fluidity”]).

They got their way. And it led us down a path of disaster.

I don’t understand it.

They got their way all right. (Quarantining HEALTHY people, masking-up of society, social distancing, and quashing good medical research into medical treatment regimens that have enjoyed anecdotal success.)

It was an utter failure, and they want to double-down on failed policies.
 
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Zzyzx_Road said:
Oh I get it, that was Gavin Newsom’s double in that restaurant, that wasn’t really him. That wasn’t SF Mayor London Breed in that same restaurant the next night, that was actually her double. That wasn’t Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot rallying the troops, that was her double. And so on.
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I was thinking specifically about Dr. Fauci who was also mentioned. But you are right about Newsom and Breed and Lightfoot. There is no excuse for that kind of hypocrisy. And I think they have realized that an apologized.
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
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Motherwit:
I am still amazed to see peoples real self emerge when someone isn’t restraining them. Not very Christian.
Click to expand...
It’s not very Christian to care nothing for the hungry.
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This is what Biden is desperate for but is kind of helpless until Trump goes. Trump has no interest at all in focusing on the economy, small business and assistance for the poor.

Biden Says Congress Should Pass a ‘Robust’ Stimulus Package​

https://thehill.com/homenews/admini...-900b-stimulus-dodging-questions-on-mcconnell
Zzyzx_Road said:
48.png
Motherwit:
This is the first modern pandemic and the way it differs from historical pandemics is our ability to medically detect cases quickly, identify clusters and target that infected cluster for quarantine. We couldn’t do it at the beginning of the pandemic because all that testing was being developed. We can do it now and the benefit of early lockdowns that have virtually eradicated community transfer means that life is virtually back to normal in those countries and no need for the whole of society to quarantine when new cases are identified.
Click to expand...
That doesn’t explain the poverty. At all. Lockdowns of the healthy = impoverishment. Not convinced this is an improvement over what happened to the economy during the last much deadlier epidemic than this one. I’m speaking of 1918, of course.
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Look at the example of Norway and how it’s people centered economy has faired so well despite lockdowns. This will become an example for the future of nations. This push to let covid run rampant believing that the economy will thrive is madness.
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/11/22/how-norway-built-economy-puts-people-first

Australia’s economy has bounced back as well, (in spite of the shenanigans of China)


Ideological narrow sight is preventing libertarians from seeing the bigger picture.
Zzyzx_Road said:
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Motherwit:
What you fail to see is that without stemming the spread of covid, poverty and death are going to drag on for years and years as opposed to months. What part of that do you not understand?
Anti maskers/anti lockdowners from what I gather have not traditionally been advocates for the poor in the past so this newfound care for the poor rings disingenuous as well as flawed logic.
Click to expand...
The Spanish flu lasted two winters. Not years and years.

Using an ad hominem attack to hide your lack of compassion for the hungry. Nice.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
During the Spanish flu the impetus was always to prevent the spread. There was never a country pushing to allow the flu to run rampant as a solution. That is a clearly anti person, inhumane idea that does not reflect the Christian spirit.
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Motherwit said:
Look at the example of Norway and how it’s people centered economy has faired so well despite lockdowns.
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You are IGNORING the people starving because there is worldwide fallout from these lockdowns. Why?

Do you see if they closed down grocery stores here because of corona virus
YOU would be in the same position as the starving people overseas?

This is not a difficult concept.
 
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December 5, 2020

The Second COVID Wave Was Avoidable​

By James Stansbury

. . . the latest COVID-19 death rate trends in an interactive chart from Our World in Data.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The second surge is now obvious. This data source uses a seven-day moving average of daily deaths per million people to make it easier to directly compare per capita death trends regardless of population differences. Sweden (a part of the E.U.) was included only because it alone shunned severe lockdowns and mask mandates in hopes that inaction would hasten the achievement of herd immunity and thereby help avoid a second surge. Unfortunately, Sweden’s hopes seem dashed.

Most European countries imposed much harsher lockdowns than those in the U.S., where individual states and localities made widely different decisions. This may partially explain why U.S. death rates never dropped as low as those in Europe. Additionally, U.S. deaths from COVID are inflated due to including deaths with COVID.

The science says extended lockdowns will only temporarily delay the spread of the virus. . . .

. . . However, a greater question is whether most of the total COVID-19 deaths and damage from lockdowns could have been avoided. Evidence has existed from the start that an inexpensive drug was available that could have tamed the beast. However, this drug’s off-label use for COVID-19 has been discouraged in the U.S. and most Western nations. Perhaps its early mention by President Trump inspired the leftist MSM to create the negative propaganda. However, this may not explain its ban by most Western nations.

Many reputable doctors went on record supporting its use, but so far, they have succeeded only in risking their careers and getting censored. . . .

. . . Administering it after reaching a severity requiring hospitalization is usually too late. . . .

. . . Dr. Geoff Mitchell, also a member of America’s Frontline Doctors, studied COVID-19 death rates in that region of Africa and discovered that a person is 35 times more likely to die from it in the U.S. A totally separate analysis of the effectiveness of HCQ for COVID-19 identified India as another early user of HCQ for COVID-19.

To test the above claims about HCQ use for COVID-19, I added Cameroon, Nigeria, and India to the above Our World in Data chart to see if there was a difference.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The difference is significant. Each of the HCQ-using countries reported virtually no deaths and zero surges. Had Europe and the U.S. followed the same treatment protocols as these poorer and less technologically advanced countries, how many thousands of deaths could have been avoided? How many billions of dollars in economic and social damage from lockdowns could have been prevented? . . .

(Bold mine)

 
Cathoholic said:
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Motherwit:
Look at the example of Norway and how it’s people centered economy has faired so well despite lockdowns.
Click to expand...
You are IGNORING the people starving because there is worldwide fallout from these lockdowns. Why?

Do you see if they closed down grocery stores here because of corona virus
YOU would be in the same position as the starving people overseas?

This is not a difficult concept.
Click to expand...
Except not a single country that did lockdowns, locked down grocery stores. Essential businesses were open with precautions. That worked. You need to properly research before you post.
 
Motherwit said:
locked down grocery stores. Essential businesses were open with precautions.
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Your missing the rhetorical point.

The point is, you (not “you” personally) would not want locked down grocery stores because you would starve or at least could have severe food shortages.

This is the effect lockdowns have had on other countries!

Starvation of Biblical proportions.

Social distancing.
Mandated societal masking up.
Mandated Government lockdowns against HEALTHY people.

All abject failures.

What did it accomplish?

“I’m starving now”: World faces unprecedented hunger crisis amid coronavirus pandemic​

BY DEBORA PATTA, HALEY OTT

UPDATED ON: MAY 2, 2020 / 7:03 PM / CBS NEWS

It’s Friday morning in Alexandra township – a poor neighborhood on the outskirts of South Africa’s largest city, Johannesburg – and dozens of people are gathered in a field outside a food distribution point, hoping today might be the day they get something to eat.

“If you’re hungry, it’s easy to get sick from stress and everything,” says Mduduzi Khumalo, who’s been lining up every day for two weeks. To get food your name has to be on the list and, so far, despite registering multiple times, his hasn’t been.

Khumalo worked as a delivery man before South Africa’s coronavirus lockdown decimated his income. His children used to get two meals a day at school, but schools are closed now. Every day, the kids wait for him at the family’s tiny home, and every day brings the same bad news.

“They know that if I don’t get anything for them, it’s over,” Khumalo tells CBS News.

Famines “of biblical proportions”​

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Residents of Diepsloot in South Africa wait for food but go home empty handed of Friday, April 23. CBS NEWS

The coronavirus pandemic has left the world facing an unprecedented hunger crisis. The United Nations World Food Program (WFP) has warned that by the end of the year, more than 260 million people will face starvation – double last year’s figures.

“In a worst-case scenario, we could be looking at famine in about three dozen countries,” . . .
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We can expect more of this attitude from a Biden presidency.What’s good for thee is not for me…
 
This article is from May 2nd, 7 months ago. Ironically it’s been the UN (an organization the far right wants done away with) and EU (which the far right has equal contempt for) who have been present to the African problems which are only exacerbated by the pandemic. So I don’t believe that rightwing media has any genuine interest in the starvation of Africans. They are exploiting the issue for political points.

But on the original topic, Sweden is now in the process of implementing even stronger restrictions. Having found that herd immunity didn’t happen. Having found that the economy didn’t thrive as they thought. Having the stark reality of a huge death rate with no gains, I predict that by the last day of this thread on the 31st December, Sweden may have the strictest lockdowns in the world.

SWEDEN TOUGHENS UP ON COVID 19 RESTRICTIONS AS CASES SURGE Dec. 6, 2020
 
Yeah. That makes it OK because Motherwit suggests the starvation “of Biblical proportions” is somehow not with us anymore because the starvation began almost immediately. And the starvation that HAS occurred is somehow irrelevant.

As long as MY grocery store is open it’s all OK though.
 
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Cathoholic said:
Yeah. That makes it OK because Motherwit suggests the starvation “of Biblical proportions” is somehow not with us anymore because the starvation began almost immediately. And the starvation that HAS occurred is somehow irrelevant.

As long as MY grocery store is open it’s all OK though.
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How did I say it was ‘irrelevant’ when I applauded the UN and EU for stepping up to do something about it? God bless those agencies and their charitable efforts to help Africa get through this time.
 
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Motherwit said:
But on the original topic, Sweden is now in the process of implementing even stronger restrictions. Having found that herd immunity didn’t happen. Having found that the economy didn’t thrive as they thought. Having the stark reality of a huge death rate with no gains, I predict that by the last day of this thread on the 31st December, Sweden may have the strictest lockdowns in the world.

SWEDEN TOUGHENS UP ON COVID 19 RESTRICTIONS AS CASES SURGE Dec. 6, 2020
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12 days later my prediction seems to be on track.


We can thank Sweden for their experiment though as it shuts down the argument that strict lockdowns don’t work. Though no doubt the lockdown detractors will continue with the intellectual gymnastic right to the very end like the Black Knight from Monty Python.
 
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