Luman Fidei encyclical letter

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Norwich12 said:
There is a pertinent article in Science Daily on March 14, 2013.
The title is "Electrons behave like a particle and a wave "

The first and last paragraphs are presented here:

Mar. 14, 2013 — The precise methodology of Richard Feynman’s famous double-slit thought-experiment – a cornerstone of quantum mechanics that showed how electrons behave as both a particle and a wave – has been followed in full for the very first time.​

Unlike sound waves and water waves, Feynman highlighted that when electrons are fired at the wall one at a time, an interference pattern is still produced. He went on to say that this phenomenon “has in it the heart of quantum physics [but] in reality, it contains the only mystery.”​

IMO there are parallels in what Paduard presented about the philosophy of
Duns Scotus.
Click to expand...
Interesting observation Norwich 12.

Knowing very little about quantum physics in the technical sense would you think it possible that the interference pattern could be as a reflection of ‘particle-speed’ restriction.? I ask this because, if so, it might tie up with the Newman article posted some way back.

Paduard
 
paduard said:
Norwich 12:

Here is the passage by Newman. Compare it with Eliot.

*Angel (speaking to the Soul after Death)

Thou art not let; but with extremest speed
Art hurrying to the Just and Holy Judge:
For scarcely art thou disembodied yet.
Divide a moment, as men measure time,
Into its million-million-millionth part,
Yet even less than that the interval
Since thou didst leave the body; and the priest
Cried “Subvenite,” and they fell to prayer;
Nay, scarcely yet have they begun to pray.

For spirits and men by different standards mete
The less and greater in the flow of time.
By sun and moon, primeval ordinances—
By stars which rise and set harmoniously—
By the recurring seasons, and the swing,
This way and that, of the suspended rod
Precise and punctual, men divide the hours,
Equal, continuous, for their common use.
Not so with us in the immaterial world;
But intervals in their succession
Are measured by the living thought alone,
And grow or wane with its intensity.
And time is not a common property;
But what is long is short, and swift is slow,
And near is distant, as received and grasp’d
By this mind and by that, and every one
Is standard of his own chronology.
And memory lacks its natural resting-points
Of years, and centuries, and periods.
It is thy very energy of thought
Which keeps thee from thy God.*

Paduard
Click to expand...
Here is the quote from
Cardinal J. H. Newman that Paduard referred to about time.
Not sure if it would apply to nanoseconds…
 
But maybe in a world outside of time – what Cardinal Newman wrote about WOULD apply:

2 lines from his poem displayed above:

“And time is not a common property;
But what is long is short, and swift is slow,”
 
Perhaps what is long to us is short for those above light speed; and thus what is swift for those who have gone before us is slow for us.

Perhaps that is what he might?]mean; or indicated in the first para you quoted above.

Paduard
 
Yes Paduard – a different scale of time in Eternity:

The Transfiguratiom, The Crucifixion, the Ascension, The Assumption of Mary.

Here is what my favorite poet wrote in 1935 in The Four Quartets.

“Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.”

T.S. Eliot
“Burnt Norton”
 
I am uncertain about the use of the term ‘unredeemable’. For, although it is true that God Himself is above and beyond time itself, I see that in Heaven it is logical to suppose that we would never be ever reminded of e.g. faults and uncharitable acts in our own past; as that might lead to misery which is impossible.

Do you think that unredeemable should be interpreted in another way? Although to be fair the extract above does contain the qualification “if”.🙂

Paduard
 
Eliot was a master of the English language.

I think he meant the second meaning of “redeem” – I can explain
later when I get to a computer to copy- paste
the 2 definitions and the root word in French.
 
(please see recent posts by Paduard).

This is my answer re the meaning of REDEEM:

• Definitions of REDEEM in the Oxford Dictionaries
• (excerpts copy-pasted)
• 1. compensate for the faults or bad (redeem oneself)
• atone or make amends for (sin, error, or evil):the thief on the cross who by a single act redeemed a life of evil
• save (someone) from sin, error, or evil: he was a sinner, redeemed by the grace of God
• 2. gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment
• exchange (a coupon, voucher, or trading stamp) for goods, a discount, or money.
• ___________________________
Origin:

Late Middle English (in the sense ‘buy back’): from Old French redimer or Latin redimere, from re- ‘back’ + emere 'buy’________

Back to the Four Quartets poem by TS Eliot with the phrase questioned by Paduard.

“Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.”

T.S. Eliot
“Burnt Norton”

Paduard was concerned that “unredeemable” referred failing to make an error or fault to be right. That did not make sense to him in the context of Divine interactions in Eternity. That is the usual sense of the word “redeem” as noted above in the First Definition.

But the Second Definition is the answer. REDEEM meaning to buy back and therefore control something. That is what is UNREDREEMABLE in Eternal Time.

The Crucifixion cannot be REDEEMED in the sense of buying back and controlling or changing the Divine Event.
It is eternally present. The most obvious everyday symbol of this truth is the Catholic Crucifix compared to the empty cross.
 
I just re-read my own paragraphs above.

I made an odd typo “UNREDREEMABLE.”

I was not “dreaming” when I wrote it.

But to back up my theory about “unredeemable” events (and therefore unalterable),
I have skimmed through the extremely long century-old article in the Catholic Encyclopedia.
The title of the scholarly document is “Sacrifice of the Mass.”

Here is a most pertinent paragraph about half way throught it.

“Once more, we maintain that the sacrifical “giving of the body” (in organic unity of course with the “pouring of blood” in the chalice) is here to be interpreted as a present sacrifice and as a permanent institution in the Church. Regarding the decisive point, i.e. indication of what is actually taking place, it is again St. Luke who speaks with greatest clearness, for to soma he adds the present participle, didomenon by which he describes the “giving of the body” as something happening in the present, here and now, not as something to be done in the near future.”​

So in that paragraph Past/Present/Future are eternally present
and therefore UNREDEEMABLE and not to be changed.
 
“So in that paragraph Past/Present/Future are eternally present
and therefore UNREDEEMABLE and not to be changed.”

Yes I agree Norwich 12. The Sacrifice of the Mass, in the sense that it is Sacrifice of Christ & His life on earth, is always present when each Mass is celebrated. In other words The Sacrifice is continual…

Apart from that confirmation, in my opinion that is, since we have been referring to **‘time’ **- here is a note I made concerning the matter relating to Scholastic thought. You might find it interesting especially even though it is but one of the component elements discussed throughout this topic. It reads as follows:-

Whatever be its objectivity, time possesses three inalienable properties. First, it is irreversible; the linking of its parts, or the order of their succession, cannot be changed; past time does not come back. According to the Scholastics, this immutability is based upon the very nature of concrete movement, of which one part is essentially anterior to another.

Secondly, time is the measure of events in this world. This raises a knotty problem, which has so far not been theoretically solved. Time can be a permanent measure only if it is concretized in a uniform movement. Now, to know the uniformity of a movement, we must know not only the space traversed, but the velocity of the transit, that is the time.

Lastly, for those who concretize time in movement, a much debated question is, whether time or movement can be infinite. St. Thomas and some of the Scholastics see no absolute impossibility in this, but many modern thinkers take a different view.

Paduard
 
Thank you Paduard-- I tried reading up on Eternal Time.
I found a thread in the Catholic Forum (“St. Thomas Aquinas and the Eternity of the World” about 7 months ago). I saw excellent responses by you, Linusthe2nd, and others. But of course no unified conclusion on such a deep subject was reached.

Then I wondered if we have gone full circle on this long thread called
LUMEN FIDEI-- the first Encyclical of Pope Francis.
Maybe your term “concretize time” is the link to the solution.

For a century since Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, the speed of light was thought
to be the absolute limit.

Are you wondering (as quantum physicists are) whether higher speeds which would warp
time are possible?
 
Norwich12 said:
(please see recent posts by Paduard).

This is my answer re the meaning of REDEEM:

• Definitions of REDEEM in the Oxford Dictionaries
• (excerpts copy-pasted)
• 1. compensate for the faults or bad (redeem oneself)
• atone or make amends for (sin, error, or evil):the thief on the cross who by a single act redeemed a life of evil
• save (someone) from sin, error, or evil: he was a sinner, redeemed by the grace of God
• 2. gain or regain possession of (something) in exchange for payment
• exchange (a coupon, voucher, or trading stamp) for goods, a discount, or money.
• ___________________________
Origin:

Late Middle English (in the sense ‘buy back’): from Old French redimer or Latin redimere, from re- ‘back’ + emere 'buy’________

Back to the Four Quartets poem by TS Eliot with the phrase questioned by Paduard.

“Time present and time past
Are both perhaps present in time future,
And time future contained in time past.
If all time is eternally present
All time is unredeemable.”

T.S. Eliot
“Burnt Norton”

Paduard was concerned that “unredeemable” referred failing to make an error or fault to be right. That did not make sense to him in the context of Divine interactions in Eternity. That is the usual sense of the word “redeem” as noted above in the First Definition.

But the Second Definition is the answer. REDEEM meaning to buy back and therefore control something. That is what is UNREDREEMABLE in Eternal Time.

The Crucifixion cannot be REDEEMED in the sense of buying back and controlling or changing the Divine Event.
It is eternally present. The most obvious everyday symbol of this truth is the Catholic Crucifix compared to the empty cross.
Click to expand...
Here is an excerpt from a blog by Dave Armstrong (Catholic author)
Friday, September 25, 2009

“How the Crucifixion is Timeless (Sacrifice of the Mass)”
*Jesus is both God and Man. He has a human nature and a Divine Nature. The human nature could be subject to time. He was born in history, was killed on a certain date, etc.
But God, by nature, is eternal and outside of time, so in His Divine Nature, the crucifixion is timeless and ongoing. **That’s why we can speak of His death as both historical and ongoing, and how the Sacrifice of the Mass can occur now as a present reality. *And it is why, after His Resurrection and Ascension, the Apostle John could still refer to Him as follows:
Revelation 5:6 (RSV) And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders, I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, . . .

View attachment 18669

Painting by Salvador Dali “Crucifixion” in 1954
 
Norwich12 said:
Thank you Paduard-- I tried reading up on Eternal Time.
I found a thread in the Catholic Forum (“St. Thomas Aquinas and the Eternity of the World” about 7 months ago). I saw excellent responses by you, Linusthe2nd, and others. But of course no unified conclusion on such a deep subject was reached.

Then I wondered if we have gone full circle on this long thread called
LUMEN FIDEI-- the first Encyclical of Pope Francis.
Maybe your term “concretize time” is the link to the solution.

For a century since Einstein’s Theory of Relativity, the speed of light was thought
to be the absolute limit.

Are you wondering (as quantum physicists are) whether higher speeds which would warp
time are possible?
Click to expand...
I don’t think we have gone full circle but we are going that way.

For us on Earth I think the speed of light is the absolute limit. Wouldn’t like to go against Einstein.🙂

To my mind higher speeds - that is put that way - only occur when the soul leaves the body. I am musing here, but when we die the body goes to ground so to speak i.e. it is subject to gravity. The spirit is not.

Over to you/others.😃

Paduard
 
Paduard has taken us through the full FULL CIRCLE of this long thread with his juxtaposition (in the post above) of LIGHT and GRAVITY.

(I will present excerpts from two documents from two popes. Because of the length, I will make two posts this morning. Bolding of words is by me)
From the opening of the first Encyclical of Pope Francis – LUMEN FIDEI:

The light of Faith: this is how the Church’s tradition speaks of the great gift brought by Jesus. In John’s Gospel, Christ says of himself: “I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness” (Jn 12:46). Saint Paul uses the same image: “God who said ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ has shone in our hearts” (2 Cor 4:6). The pagan world, which hungered for light, had seen the growth of the cult of the sun god, Sol Invictus, invoked each day at sunrise. Yet though the sun was born anew each morning, it was clearly incapable of casting its light on all of human existence. The sun does not illumine all reality; its rays cannot penetrate to the shadow of death, the place where men’s eyes are closed to its light. “No one — Saint Justin Martyr writes — has ever been ready to die for his faith in the sun”.[1] Conscious of the immense horizon which their faith opened before them, Christians invoked Jesus as the true sun “whose rays bestow life”.[2] To Martha, weeping for the death of her brother Lazarus, Jesus said: “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?” (Jn 11:40). Those who believe, see; they see with a light that illumines their entire journey, for it comes from the risen Christ, the morning star which never sets.
EASTER VIGIL- the opening of the homily is copy/pasted from the Vatican website:

HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI

Saint Peter’s Basilica
Holy Saturday, 11 April 2009

*Saint Mark tells us in his Gospel that as the disciples came down from the Mount of the Transfiguration, they were discussing among themselves what “rising from the dead” could mean (cf. Mk 9:10). A little earlier, the Lord had foretold his passion and his resurrection after three days. Peter had protested against this prediction of death. But now, they were wondering what could be meant by the word “resurrection”. Could it be that we find ourselves in a similar situation? Christmas, the birth of the divine Infant, we can somehow immediately comprehend. We can love the child, we can imagine that night in Bethlehem, Mary’s joy, the joy of Saint Joseph and the shepherds, the exultation of the angels. But what is resurrection? It does not form part of our experience, and so the message often remains to some degree beyond our understanding, a thing of the past. The Church tries to help us understand it, by expressing this mysterious event in the language of symbols in which we can somehow contemplate this astonishing event. During the Easter Vigil, the Church points out the significance of this day principally through three symbols: light, water, and the new song – the Alleluia.

**First of all, there is light. God’s creation – which has just been proclaimed to us in the Biblical narrative – begins with the command: “Let there be light!” *(Gen 1:3). Where there is light, life is born, chaos can be transformed into cosmos. In the Biblical message, light is the most immediate image of God: He is total Radiance, Life, Truth, Light. During the Easter Vigil, the Church reads the account of creation as a prophecy. In the resurrection, we see the most sublime fulfilment of what this text describes as the beginning of all things. God says once again: “Let there be light!” The resurrection of Jesus is an eruption of light. Death is conquered, the tomb is thrown open. The Risen One himself is Light, the Light of the world. With the resurrection, the Lord’s day enters the nights of history. Beginning with the resurrection, God’s light spreads throughout the world and throughout history. Day dawns. This Light alone – Jesus Christ – is the true light, something more than the physical phenomenon of light. He is pure Light: God himself, who causes a new creation to be born in the midst of the old, transforming chaos into cosmos.
 
Here is the final part of the Easter Vigil homily:
_________________________________________________________j
HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI

Saint Peter’s Basilica
Holy Saturday, 11 April 2009

*There is a surprising parallel to the story of Moses’ song after Israel’s liberation from Egypt upon emerging from the Red Sea, namely in the Book of Revelation of Saint John. Before the beginning of the seven last plagues imposed upon the earth, the seer has a vision of something “like a sea of glass mingled with fire; and those who had conquered the beast and its image and the number of its name, standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands. And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb …” (Rev 15:2f.). This image describes the situation of the disciples of Jesus Christ in every age, the situation of the Church in the history of this world. Humanly speaking, it is self-contradictory. On the one hand, the community is located at the Exodus, in the midst of the Red Sea, in a sea which is paradoxically ice and fire at the same time. And must not the Church, so to speak, always walk on the sea, through the fire and the cold? Humanly speaking, she ought to sink. But while she is still walking in the midst of this Red Sea, she sings – she intones the song of praise of the just: the song of Moses and of the Lamb, in which the Old and New Covenants blend into harmony. While, strictly speaking, she ought to be sinking, the Church sings the song of thanksgiving of the saved. She is standing on history’s waters of death and yet she has already risen. Singing, she grasps at the Lord’s hand, which holds her above the waters. And she knows that she is thereby raised outside the force of gravity of death and evil – a force from which otherwise there would be no way of escape – raised and drawn into the new gravitational force of God, of truth and of love. At present, the Church and all of us are still between the two gravitational fields. But once Christ is risen, the gravitational pull of love is stronger than that of hatred; the force of gravity of life is stronger than that of death. Perhaps this is actually the situation of the Church in every age, perhaps it is our situation? It always seems as if she ought to be sinking, and yet she is always already saved. Saint Paul illustrated this situation with the words: “We are as dying, and behold we live” (2 Cor 6:9). The Lord’s saving hand holds us up, and thus we can already sing the song of the saved, the new song of the risen ones: alleluia! *
(and I will conclude this long thread of LUMEN FIDEI with quote from the beginning of the Benedict’s homily)

“This Light alone – Jesus Christ – is the true light, something more than the physical phenomenon of light. He is pure Light: God himself, who causes a new creation to be born in the midst of the old, transforming chaos into cosmos.”

View attachment 18675

Christ the Redeemer statue in Brazil
 
“And she knows that she is thereby raised outside the force of gravity of death and evil – a force from which otherwise there would be no way of escape – raised and drawn into the new gravitational force of God, of truth and of love. At present, the Church and all of us are still between the two gravitational fields. But once Christ is risen, the gravitational pull of love is stronger than that of hatred; the force of gravity of life is stronger than that of death.”

I am much obliged to you for mentioning the above Norwich 12. Didn’t have these documents on my file; but have now copied them. Thank you very much.

Had no idea that Benedict XVI had mentioned gravity at all; and that just as it was being raised above.

Of course gravity and gravitational force can be taken in the purely religious sense - yet in language it has other senses. Nevertheless I personally can if I wish opt to take it in ‘all’ senses, not solely the obvious!

Regards
Paduard
 
The quote from Benedict XVI above was Holy Saturday 2009.
Here is an expansion of the metaphor of opposing gravities 2 years later.

This paragraph is from a news article with excerpts from his homily in Rome on Palm Sunday 2011:

“From the beginning– said the Pope - men and women have been filled – and this is as true today as ever – with a desire to “be like God”, to attain the heights of God by their own powers. All the inventions of the human spirit are ultimately an effort to gain wings so as to rise to the heights of Being and to become independent, completely free, as God is free. Mankind has managed to accomplish so many things: we can fly! We can see, hear and speak to one another from the farthest ends of the earth. And yet the force of gravity which draws us down is powerful. With the increase of our abilities there has been an increase not only of good. Our possibilities for evil have increased and appear like menacing storms above history. Our limitations have also remained: we need but think of the disasters which have caused so much suffering for humanity in recent months”.​

Interesting comparisons about gravity-- consider the importance of downward motion in Scripture:

Christ’s descent into Hell after the Crucifixion. And upward motion: The Resurrection, the Ascension. Then the descent of the Holy Comforter at Pentecost.
And years later the Assumption into Heaven of the Virgin Mary.
 
*"Interesting comparisons about gravity-- consider the importance of downward motion in Scripture:

Christ’s descent into Hell after the Crucifixion. And upward motion: The Resurrection, the Ascension. Then the descent of the Holy Comforter at Pentecost.
And years later the Assumption into Heaven of the Virgin Mary."*

Yes Norwich 12 - perhaps we ought to consider a sort of semi summary/or gathering together of the spiritual and science points touched upon so far? Especially as, during this time i.e. Advent, parishes are supposed to be contemplating/adverting to the second-coming.

Paduard.
 
Thank you Paduard.

This is an appropriate poem often used in Advent-- the season of preparing and waiting. Please compare this poem by T.S. Eliot to the story about Simeon in Luke 2:25-35. Simeon was an old devout man looking for the Messiah before his own life was over. Seeing the infant Jesus in the temple with Mary and Joseph, Simeon recognized the Messiahship of Christ. This poem is especially pertinent today on Christ the King Sunday.

**A Song for Simeon **(TS Eliot)

*Lord, the Roman hyacinths are blooming in bowls and
The winter sun creeps by the snow hills;
The stubborn season had made stand.
My life is light, waiting for the death wind,
Like a feather on the back of my hand.
Dust in sunlight and memory in corners
Wait for the wind that chills towards the dead land.

Grant us thy peace.
I have walked many years in this city,
Kept faith and fast, provided for the poor,
Have given and taken honour and ease.
There went never any rejected from my door.
Who shall remember my house, where shall live my children’s children
When the time of sorrow is come?
They will take to the goat’s path, and the fox’s home,
Fleeing from the foreign faces and the foreign swords.

Before the time of cords and scourges and lamentation
Grant us thy peace.
Before the stations of the mountain of desolation,
Before the certain hour of maternal sorrow,
Now at this birth season of decease,
Let the Infant, the still unspeaking and unspoken Word,
Grant Israel’s consolation
To one who has eighty years and no to-morrow.

According to thy word.
They shall praise Thee and suffer in every generation
With glory and derision,
Light upon light, mounting the saints’ stair.
Not for me the martyrdom, the ecstasy of thought and prayer,
Not for me the ultimate vision.
Grant me thy peace.
(And a sword shall pierce thy heart,
Thine also).
I am tired with my own life and the lives of those after me,
I am dying in my own death and the deaths of those after me.
Let thy servant depart,
Having seen thy salvation.*
 
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