Mandatory mask poll

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Absolutely. My coworker, who’s dying in the Hospital from congestive heart failure, could not wear the mask. There are legitimate medical excuses for not wearing a mask.

Also, certain strenuous activities such as outdoor work or exercise are generally exempt.
 
TULIPed said:
Also - whenever you grant someone a right, you take away a right from somebody else.
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This doesn’t seem to hold up as a thought experiment.
The right to free speech, the right to bear arms, the right to not have soldiers quartered at your home-I’m not seeing how these take away from the rights of someone else.
 
First…that horse has left the barn…there is no way to bring all manufacturing back to the US. Besides the cost of products going sky high (which may be acceptable) the larger problem is that our government would have to give large incentives and loans to accomplish it. Businesses will not voluntarily spend millions of dollars to switch their manufacturing processes.

Next is the issue of supplies to make many products…especially technology ones. There are many unique and rare elements involved that are only available in China or other communist countries. These elements aren’t located here and a few that are, are not mined here so we’d also have to begin mining them…not cheap or even profitable.

The Chinese government is communist but much of their manufacturing and businesses aren’t. I’m all for encouraging more and more capitalism in these countries. This should eventually lead to a capitalist system of government being more and more desirable. Let’s not force them backwards!

Like it or not, we are in a world economy. Railing against it is railing at the wind. It might make you feel better but it changes nothing. I’m in favor of encouraging manufacturing be more spread out. Use China but also build factories in India, Brazil, Mexico, Poland…etc. we did realize the problem of ALL our masks coming from China and having to force them to honor contracts. We’ll be in better shape if manufacturing is more spread out amongst various countries so China can’t play the bully anymore. But, closing off China to our market will just close the Chinese market off to us. Businesses drool over reaching the Chinese market and their billions of rising middle class people.
 
jeannetherese said:
The right to free speech, the right to bear arms, the right to not have soldiers quartered at your home-I’m not seeing how these take away from the rights of someone else.
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Ok - take the right to free speech. Imagine you’re running for election. I have the right to say pretty much whatever I want about you and your platform (in theory as long as it’s truthful - that’s an argument for another day). The fact that I have the right to say these things infringes upon your right to keep me silent. This makes more sense when taken in the context of a monarchy/dictatorship. Government - in those examples - have the right to silence opposition. Free speech takes that right from them and gives the freedom of expression to the people.

Many of the rights in the Bill of Rights are set in this context. The classic example is that of slavery. The Southern states believed they had the right to maintain their economies via the use of free labor. The Civil War took this right away from them - and granted slaves their right to freedom.

Moving closer to home - take drinking and driving. Your right to drink alcohol and drive was subordinated for the public’s right to drive safely (and lower their insurance premiums). One of the first things you learn in any basic law class that covers constitutional law is that when a right is given, one is always either subordinated or taken away.
 
The video is interesting. One thing I might point out is that for relatively normal people, this does sound promising. The problem is, patients that have more serious pre existing conditions aren’t usually under the care of a general practitioner. They are under the care of specialists and this protocol may not be beneficial to those patients. His protocol may be fine for his patients but no one should assume all patients should follow it.

He also doesn’t explain what mask wearing “long term” means. Is he in favor of short term? What’s the definition of long and short term…just curious.
 
I’ve never considered myself as having a right to silence you TULIPed. I don’t think that this counterexample works.
I notice you skipped the right to bear arms and the right not to have soldiers quartered at your house.
I mentioned these three in response to your claim that whenever you grant someone a right, you take a right away from someone else.
 
Cruciferi said:
Follow your Local and State Guidelines
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Agreed. And this one is easy to support from scripture:

“13 Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. 16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. 17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.”
 
Again - the rights you mention are set in the context of the governed and the government. The King had the right to silence opposition, quarter soldiers wherever he wanted and restrict local militias. When the Continental Congress declared independence, they took those rights away from the King - and the Congress, and gave them to the people. Government lost rights and the people gained them.

Rights are about power. Think in terms of the unborn - an issue near and dear to all Catholics. The unborn have the right to life. When we unequivocally grant that right to them (as we should), we take away the right of the mother and her doctor to control (and kill) them. We subordinate the mother’s right “to choose” to the fetus’ right to life.

Whenever we give a right to somebody, we subordinate our own - whether we are a King or a government or a mother. This is why the founding fathers depended so much upon Judeo-Christian values to support the new Republic. When we all look to love our neighbor - especially those we don’t like - as ourselves, we’re constantly looking for ways we can subordinate our wishes for the good of the other. It’s a race towards giving up power instead of taking it.
 
That depends very much on where you are.

In the fairly socially and politically conservative small city where I live, nearly everyone wears a mask. 200 miles away, in rural blue collar Trump country where my wife’s extended family lives, most people aren’t wearing masks.

40 miles from here, in a very urban, low income city, people are wearing masks even when they’re out walking by themselves.
 
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I see. Rights, as you are discussing them, are a human construct and are created by the powerful.
Do you recognize any rights as God given rather than man given?
 
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This chart compares COVID infections in New Jersey (top) and Florida (bottom).

New Jersey mandated masks, home quarantines, social
distancing, and closure of all non-essential businesses.

On the other hand, Florida’s cases are exploding.

In New Jersey, we’re reopening for business.

I call that a good thing.

@JoeFreedom:

I can’t find the data you want, i.e. daily mortality rates. The number
of deaths in NJ have declined. The number of deaths in Florida have
increased. But that still doesn’t control for deaths per 100,000 cases.

Unfortunately, people with COVID can have serious permanent damage,
e.g. brain fog, fatigue, and lung damage. All these symptoms can be
Googled.

Now, researchers are finding that COVID can be sexually transmitted and
can cause infertility in men.

It was hard for me to stay locked up for months. Now, I can go to an outdoor
restaurant and to my salon. I can golf again (badly). And I can walk around
in the park.

The masks aren’t a big deal. I wouldn’t want to golf (badly) with one.

I understand you have a different viewpoint. I have to leave it there for now.

 
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jeannetherese said:
Do you recognize any rights as God given rather than man given?
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We do see biblical reference to carrying arms and instuctions from Our Lord on that matter. (Luke 22: 36) Douai Rheims.
Catholics draw from the Word of God in the Holy Bible and also from tradition.
In previous posts, you have discussed rights from a secular perspective as man given and as being determined by the powerful.
My question was do you recognize any rights as God given?
 
jeannetherese said:
My question was do you recognize any rights as God given?
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Of course. The right to life for example.

Speaking of the right to life - do we ever subordinate our God given rights? If we never subordinated ourselves and our rights, we would never sacrifice. Sacrifice only occurs when we give up something that has value for the sake of somebody else. Jesus had the God given right to a fair trial. He had the God given right for freedom. He had the God given right to not be crucified. He subordinated all of his God given rights for us.

In other words - just because a right is God given doesn’t mean we don’t or can’t subordinate our access to them on behalf of somebody else. I would argue that in fact that’s part and parcel of the very nature of our faith:

“Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!”
 
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