Mandatory mask poll

[JoeFreedom]

I’m going to try to calmly and rationally make my argument.

And to be clear, I’m just piggy-backing off your post because of your comment about how some are making COVID into a religion and from my vantage point, coercing the rest of us to think exactly like they do, otherwise, we are relegated into the evil and immoral mass murder category, and I’ve had quite enough, thank you very much.

The guidelines set up by our local and state governments are guidelines. They are not mandates. Some are calling them mandates, but regardless of what others have posted about the “law”, I would argue and can back up that there are many who disagree with those who believe our state governors and local officials can actually legally do what they are doing. This is evident in the fact that many people are suing. What irritates me the most is that people say the “science is settled” and I cannot have another opinion. There is so much contradictory evidence out there and this is both science and art (e.g.: modeling) and much of it from highly respected doctors, epidemiologists, universities, and other institutions, including other countries.

When people who do not believe as others do are called murderers and sinners and that anything we believe is patently false because the discussion is already over, what kind of world are we living in? Debate is gone, and civility went out the door with reasoned argumentation.

I posted a summation of why I think COVID is not what people think it is above, and there are many sources supporting what I’ve been saying, and by multiple sources, respected sources. Others here, like-minded, have also pointed to similar sources. But the emotional reactions (including myself, I’m guilty) have got to stop, including how we are bad evil immoral people who aren’t following Christ.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Let’s do a thought experiment. If everyone in American (~360 million) people, got COVID-19, that would mean there were 360 million cases. Right? Of course. Now, what if all 360 million people died? That would be bad. Right? Of course. Fatality Rate would be 100%. But what is 0 people died? That would be great! Right! Or course.

What I’m getting at is that the number of cases are less relevant than you think for several reasons:

1. The number of cases is not actually known, because many have not been tested, and some studies have shown the number of cases to be dozens of times higher. Even Dr. Fauci believes it is potentially 2-6 times higher.
2. The number of positive anti-body tests are being counted in with the number of positive cases. This is a first-year medical school no-no stuff, but it’s happening.
3. The number of cases is only relevant to the number of hospitalizations and the number of deaths. If most cases survive and/or do not go to the hospital, cases are not that important (*we can talk about spread later).
4. We are not being told how many people recover, which is an important statistic being left out of the conversation.
5. Up to 80% of all test-positive persons remain symptom-free. Even among 70-79 year olds, about 60% remain symptom-free. About 95% of all people develop at most moderate symptoms.
6. Cases generally will go up as more testing is being done. This is a nature result and we expect to find this, and in fact, more cases will do two things, decrease the veracity of the virus (viruses want to keep existing so over time they weaken) and we will reach herd immunity much faster (provided we do the proper thing and protect our vulnerable and elderly and hospital patients).

 

[Pattylt]

Let me first assure you than I don’t think you are evil or sinning and certainly not a murderer. I also agree the science isn’t settled but it is leaning heavier and heavier towards mask helping prevent the spread. No, it’s not in full agreement…it may never be.

I can give one example of a positive effect. My future son in law is a liver transplant. He is obviously in the very high risk category. He has been so afraid to leave his apartment because so few were wearing masks. It’s now a mandate and he is happy that he feels he can go out and about. He even started his first job in over a year and a half…all because pretty much everyone is following the state mandate. This may not be meaningful to most but to this one person, it’s everything! He knows he’s not 100% protected. He knows that he may Rey well eventually be exposed but his relief is so great that he is finally able to resume a normal life again, work and hopefully, come October, marry my daughter. That’s a pretty good thing in my book, too!

I want more people like him to feel like they can join the world again, too. I never minded wearing a mask and I know several that absolutely hate it and, until this mandate, refused to do so. I’m not a bit sorry they now have to…perhaps I should have some sympathy for them, but I just can’t muster up much. We have to wear shoes and shirts in restaurants and I never hear screaming about those rights! Now, for some few months we have to add a mask.

 

[Pattylt]

Just a couple of issues that you didn’t point out.

We have no idea yet how long antibody levels remain high enough to prevent reinfection. We don’t even know what level of antibody is needed for this. We don’t know how long the antibody last, either. They may confer lifelong immunity…not very likely…to a few weeks immunity…also not likely.

Viruses mutate…often and sometimes quickly. We already know this one has mutated. Some mutations do not effect any immunity already gained. Some mutations greatly effect previous immune status. It’s possible though let’s hope not, that we may never gain herd immunity from this virus, especially if it mutates often or dramatically. We may also never find an effective vaccine…though there seems to be good one undergoing trials right now.

This all sounds very negative at a time where we tend to only want to hear the good news. We must stay realistic about the virus however. They are even now realizing this isn’t so much a respiratory virus as a vascular virus…and some recovered patients are struggling from the vascular effects that may be permanent. I’d hate to find out that our children and young easily recover from the virus but a certain percentage have lasting side effects or permanent damage.

 

[TULIPed]

There is so much contradictory evidence out there and this is both science and art (e.g.: modeling) and much of it from highly respected doctors, epidemiologists, universities, and other institutions, including other countries.

Please post these - especially universities - that support not wearing masks. Every major public and private health agency and institution in the United States supports the usage of masks. Here are a few of the major examples:

The CDC has supported wearing masks here: CDC calls on Americans to wear masks to prevent COVID-19 spread | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC

The American Medical Association has supported wearing masks here:

The Surgeon General is supportive of wearing masks (now): Did the US Surgeon General Recommend the Public Not Wear Masks? | Snopes.com

Even the President is wearing a mask (now): Coronavirus: Donald Trump wears face mask for the first time - BBC News

Every major university hospital system supports wearing masks - here’s an example: 5 Questions: Stanford scientists on COVID-19 mask guidelines | News Center | Stanford Medicine

 

[JoeFreedom]

Thank you for saying I’m not a murderer or sinning. I do believe that this entire event is emotional, for everyone. Regardless of whether we believe the lockdowns were good or bad, they have impacted all of us, and likely more negatively than positively, particularly emotionally, also spiritually, and then of course, physically. I appreciate you saying the science isn’t settled. It allows room for civil debate.

I do believe, and this is my personal belief, that a lot of this went meant to test to see how far controlling the masses could go, and that much of the media shared information that only served to scare people, and very little good or positive information or news was shared, stoking fears and emotions. I am angry that it seems only one message has been getting out. As a reasoned person, I want facts, truth, and I want to get there through reason and logic, civil debate, and yes, science.

And while I personally do not believe masks have the effect many people say they do (they may have some, but how much is up for debate), had we been in a world where we were all truthful, honest, compassionate, and moral and ethical people, if the initial science said that masks did good, I could get behind it. But it turned political, because there was so much misinformation and disinformation and changing information and good honest people like me felt like we were being lied to and manipulated. It is not like WWII where the vast vast majority who sacrificed at home (the non-soldiers) did so because it was all for one cause and everyone believed in it. This issue is so divisive, I believe mainly because our politicians made it so.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Every major public and private health agency and institution in the United States supports the usage of masks.

You understand the word “every” means all, 100%, none excluded. This is untrue, so be careful with your words.

 

[on_the_hill]

Point out those that aren’t part of the “every,” then.

 

[JoeFreedom]

We have no idea yet how long antibody levels remain high enough to prevent reinfection. We don’t even know what level of antibody is needed for this. We don’t know how long the antibody last, either. They may confer lifelong immunity…not very likely…to a few weeks immunity…also not likely.

And for me, this is precisely why when people who think like I do feel like the goal posts keep on shifting every day, we feel manipulated. We do not know what we need to know about this virus, but then make major economic, religious, political, monetary and other decisions based on a lack of knowledge. But I do believe we have learned enough about the virus to know some of what we were doing wasn’t as smart as we thought.

 

[TULIPed]

You understand the word “every” means all, 100%, none excluded. This is untrue, so be careful with your words.

Respectfully - I said “every major public and private health agency and institution”. If this is untrue, please prove me incorrect, and I’ll stand corrected.

 

[on_the_hill]

I do believe, and this is my personal belief, that a lot of this went meant to test to see how far controlling the masses could go,

There is no point in continuing the discussion if this is what you truly believe, because it’s absurd.

 

[TULIPed]

You know what. You’re right. And you’re smart.

I’m just bored I think. I need to stay on the theological threads. This gets me way to amped up. Thanks for talking me off the ledge.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Data do not back cloth masks to limit COVID-19, experts say

www.cidrap.umn.edu

See my above posts about why people are resistant to wearing masks, and it is partly due to the jury being out about effectiveness, but a lot of it due to the lies and manipulation and changing stories.

 

[JoeFreedom]

Rahm Immanuel. “Never let a good crisis go to waste.” You’d be remiss to think people are not out there to do evil.

It’s my night-night time, so I won’t be responding. Besides, you and I won’t be having a discussion anyway because my beliefs are absurd.

 

[TULIPed]

Thank you. This paper was produced in early April. Much has changed in terms of research and results since then - apparently including the mind of one of the authors. Here’s a quote from Dr. Besser on June 17th in the New York Times:

““As states are moving to reopen the economy, as people are increasing their social activities, it becomes even more important that the public understand the critical value in following public health guidance — wearing masks, social distancing, washing hands, staying home if you’re sick,” said Dr. Richard Besser, a former acting director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, whose regular briefings during the H1N1 pandemic of 2009 have been cited as a model of good crisis communications.”

In fairness to Dr. Besser, there’s been a great deal of new research since he wrote his paper in April(at the request of the White House). Which is apparently why he now supports wearing masks - along with every major public and private health institution in the United States.

 

[Pattylt]

I will support your belief that the media tends to keep the virus on high alert and over reports the negative…they know what drives the clicks. I will also agree that there has been way too much conflicting reports on this virus…mostly a lot of guessing and modeling when we just didn’t have enough information to make sound decisions. While liars exist, I’m not ready to say that many were outright lying. Mistaken, yes. Overly guessing, yes. But I think most were honestly trying their best to figure out the best way to handle this pandemic and leaned heavily on overcaution rather than under.

I have no idea why Gov. Cuomo thought that placing discharged patients in nursing homes was a good idea. Obviously, it wasn’t but I don’t think he was trying to kill off the elderly. That’s a level of evil I just won’t agree to. I think he was honestly assuming they were no longer contagious. He was terribly wrong.

I also don’t think there are any conspiracies amongst our government officials to try and test the limits of people’s willingness to comply with any government control. While I don’t think our government officials are all brilliant, I don’t think they are idiots or anti American, either. I think everyone was scrambling to find out what would work best. Missteps were made everywhere and we have to live with those missteps now.

As much as we want to know everything possible about Covid, we just don’t. Some answers may take years and most will come sooner. I’ve given up trying to listen to everyone…that’s where all the confusion begins. You can find a counterpoint to every single thing stated about Covid. I stick with my state information and trust it to be the best they can give for now. Some of that may be incorrect, too, but you have to have a plan and stick with it. There is no perfect plan. But, we at least have one and I certainly don’t know enough to condemn it…so, I follow it and hope for the best.

I really do feel sorry for those folks that have let their fears get the best of them. Some people really should just turn off their TVs for a bit. I know it’s hard to determine when some fact is true or not. We don’t have very good built in lie detectors and emotions on this are continuing to be fed by the media…so just turn it off! I really wish this virus had brought us together as a nation instead of becoming politicized…too late for that now. We all need to just calmly let the medical community do their jobs and listen to them when they have something important to say. When they are just arguing amongst themselves, ignore them! Truth will out!

 

[pnewton]

I saw the first in a while at a home store not wearing a mask. I assumed he just forgot instead of saying anything, as it was clear he was running in and out real quick. However, I did a 180 and moved away quickly when he came down the aisle I was in.

 

[pnewton]

I would argue and can back up that there are many who disagree with those who believe our state governors and local officials can actually legally do what they are doing.

Opinions of citizens have no bearing on the law. What has been issued in many places are orders, done within the executive power given by the individual state constitutions (that state’s rights thing). In those cases, the law can be obeyed, the law can be broken, and the law can be challenged. If the law is challenged, the only opinion that matters will be the latest judge to hear the case.

I do believe, and this is my personal belief, that a lot of this went meant to test to see how far controlling the masses could go

Well, this explains a lot.

CIDRAP

Data do not back cloth masks to limit COVID-19, experts say ​

Homemade masks may capture respiratory droplets, but no

From the article:

Because different masks have different filtering capacities and the role of droplet size on disease transmission is unknown…

Even more, he worries that encouraging cloth masks is emboldening people to try to get surgical masks for better protection,…

In the report, the committee members called for research to yield clear instructions on how to properly make, fit, use, and clean homemade fabric masks.

This article is about how the lack of standardization makes the effectiveness of masks in general to be evaluated. Research is needed to aid those making cloth masks in making ones more effective. It never suggests not wearing them, nor does it say they are not effective.

 

[libbeylu]

Wow, a long, long way from my country…United States of America!

 

[glencor63]

Wearing a mask during this viral pandemic is common sense and a moral imperative. The heart of the anti-mask debate is extreme individualism, selfishness, and narcissism. There’s also a contempt for science.