Mary- other children

[MaggieOH]

Each time I attempt to stay on topic I am lead down a rabbit trail. If you review this thread you will discover that many do the same!

I doubt that you have the ability to “eat my lunch.” I have debated some prominent Catholic Apologists and have had great success!

I am more than willing to stay on topic yet I must be given the same opportunity to respond as everyone else!

Peace!
** **

I hear what you are saying bud. However, if you see others going off topic then you can help to stop it by making the decision not to respond and suggest that they open their own thread on the points that they are raising.

We want to stay on topic so that we can continue this very interesting discussion.

BTW - do not be so sure about making any points. We have Scripture on our side.

 

[Church_Militant]

Each time I attempt to stay on topic I am lead down a rabbit trail. If you review this thread you will discover that many do the same!

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I doubt that you have the ability to “eat my lunch.” I have debated some prominent Catholic Apologists and have had great success!

---

I am more than willing to stay on topic yet I must be given the same opportunity to respond as everyone else!

---

Peace!
** **

So like when any one sins…it’s someone else’s fault…isn’t this the same thing Eve said…(“It was the snake…”) LOL. We go off topic when we ALLOW ourselves to respond here to things that aren’t relevent. THAT’s why you open another thread…no more excuses…open the thread and I’m gonna bring my napkin to lunch 'cos you’re MINE!
http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage04/14.gif

 

[John1717]

ANWK:

Hi Xavier,

I read with interest regarding your point about Mary not being the mother of God. I am assuming that you will call her the mother of Jesus but not the mother of God?

Humour me a little here and go along with me part of the way. If Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus, why isn’t Mary the mother of God? Logic demands it as such.

So you say that Jesus predates Mary and thus on that account she cannot be His mother. I think everyone here acknowlegdes the fact that when we say that Mary is the mother of God, we are not saying that she is older than Jesus or anything like that.

We call her the mother of God because she gave birth to Jesus the person. Period.

For that matter, how do you think Jesus will introduce His mother? “my mother” or the “mother of my human nature”?

So what’s your objection this time round? Let’s hear you out.

**Mary is the mother of Jesus but not the mother of God! Jesus is one person with two natures, one human and one didvine. To say that Mary is the mother of God, denies the fact of Jesus’ humanity. **

Let’s use the logic you’re so fond of!

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Jesus is God,
Mary is the mother of Jesus,
Mary is the mother of God!

**God is a Trinity, **
Mary is the mother of God,
**Mary is the mother of the Trinity! **

God the Father subsists within the Trinity,
Mary is the mother of the Trinity,
**Mary is the mother of God the Father! **

This demonstrates that your logic is flawed! :yup:

 

[John1717]

Church Militant:

So like when any one sins…it’s someone else’s fault…isn’t this the same thing Eve said…(“It was the snake…”) LOL. We go off topic when we ALLOW ourselves to respond here to things that aren’t relevent. THAT’s why you open another thread…no more excuses…open the thread and I’m gonna bring my napkin to lunch 'cos you’re MINE!
http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage04/14.gif

Actually, you don’t stand a chance!

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**Now, let’s please get back on topic! :yup: **

 

[MaggieOH]

Mary is said to be sinless and as such did not have pain in childbirth! Thats what I was taught!

Now, try digesting this one more time! Scripture interprets Scripture!

Rev 12:1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. (Notice it says the Woman is a sign-something that point beyond itself)
Rev 12:2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. (Notice the red dragon is also a sign-Satan)
Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

**Now lets look at Genesis 37:9 which records the dream of Joseph: “…Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars (Joseph being number twelve) were bowing down to me” **The twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Israel. You can also read Gen 49:1-28.

Now read Jer. 4:31: "For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, The anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, The cry of the daufgter of Zion gasping for breath"

Now read Isiah 66:7-8: “Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.” You can also read Isiah 26:17 and Micah 4:9.

This Woman is not a person but a symbol ! It is the people of God from whom comes the Messiah! Notice this Woman cries out in the pain of childbirth, which is contrary to Catholic teaching. This passage has nothing to do with Mary!

**The only reason you believe the Woman to be Mary is because thats what you have been taught by the Catholic Church. However, the Catholic Church is dead wrong and in fact is not the Church founded by Jesus Christ!!! **

Jim,

your argument is demolished very easily. First of all you need to recognize that it is in fact possible (lucky devils) for some women to give birth without any labour pains. That being said, one cannot say for certain whether or not Mary had the pangs of childbirth.

Second, can you show me where it is written in any current Catholic document that Mary being sinless meant that she did not have labour pains. Since she gave birth in the normal way I will bet that she had contractions!!!

Third, still confused as ever when it comes to understanding the Book of Revelation and then going for that man made doctrine “Scripture interprets Scripture” which of course can only create confusion because some man still has to pull the verses together.

Let’s be sensible here and take another look at what is happening. There are several senses of Scripture. Do you agree or disagree? If you agree then we need to discover what senses of Scripture are being used in this one motif from the Book of Revelation. Ya know it is not possible to read the Scriptures written by John the Evangelist without discovering something new every time that they are being read.

(cont)

 

[Benadam]

Mary is said to be sinless and as such did not have pain in childbirth! Thats what I was taught!

Now, try digesting this one more time! Scripture interprets Scripture!

Rev 12:1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. (Notice it says the Woman is a sign-something that point beyond itself)
Rev 12:2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. (Notice the red dragon is also a sign-Satan)
**Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, **so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

**Now lets look at Genesis 37:9 which records the dream of Joseph: “…Lo, I have had still another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon and eleven stars (Joseph being number twelve) were bowing down to me” **The twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Israel. You can also read Gen 49:1-28.

Now read Jer. 4:31: "For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, The anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, The cry of the daufgter of Zion gasping for breath"

Now read Isiah 66:7-8: “Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy. Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons.” You can also read Isiah 26:17 and Micah 4:9.

This Woman is not a person but a symbol ! It is the people of God from whom comes the Messiah! Notice this Woman cries out in the pain of childbirth, which is contrary to Catholic teaching. This passage has nothing to do with Mary!

**The only reason you believe the Woman to be Mary is because thats what you have been taught by the Catholic Church. However, the Catholic Church is dead wrong and in fact is not the Church founded by Jesus Christ!!! **

This is the Woman who’s seed will crush the serpents head in ‘Genesis’ This is the beginning of what became fulfilled in the New Woman who is not just a symbol of but the reality of that other sign in heaven mentioned in revelation. Mary is the Woman standing on the moon with 12 stars around her head.

She is the bride who in Genesis was wrinkled but is made a spotless bride in Mary all dressed up and ready for the Groom. Mary is the Triumph of the People of God in heaven and the Church who is in travail on earth manifesting her son who as we speak is taken up to God’s throne in the Saints who’s good deeds continue to make her spotless. Prophecy has already happened is happening and is yet to come. The spirit of prophecy is Jesus.

 

[John1717]

sfp:

Oudave, have you ever asked a friend to pray for you or anyone else?

Why? According to your logic, you are also taking away the importance of Christ.

Do you see the hypocrisy of your statement? Or are you going to suggest that St. Paul (or the Holy Spirit, rather) is wrong when he tells us to pray for one another?

You can’t have it both ways.

**We ask the living to pray for us not the dead! Mary nor any other “saint” cannot hear our prayers, which should be directed to God alone. Contacting the dead is forbidden in Scripture! :yup: **

 

[John1717]

sfp:

The Bible tells us to honor those who came before us in the family of God. This is all we are doing. You are trying to equate honoring a member of God’s family with “worshipping” an idol such as “Baal.”

There is a HUGE difference in erecting a molten cow and kneeling down to it to worship it thinking that your prayers are somehow going to be answered by this COW!

Honoring a saint, such as Mary, by kneeling down in front of her statue is no more idolatry than you looking at a photo of your grandmother and saying something like…“I miss you.” The point is that you aren’t expecting that statue of picture itself to do some sort of miracle or response to your request. The statues are merely reminders of the person, they are not thought of by Catholics as an idol.

You truly don’t understand Biblical context. The writers of the Bible are speaking to a group of people that are immersed in a world of paganism where people were worshipping inanimate objects, and not God. God is pleased when we give love and honor to the wonderful people in God’s family. If you know of someone who is “worshipping” anything other than God, then they aren’t Catholic.

**Hmmm, isn’t that what the Jews were doing when Moses came down from the mountain? :yup: **

 

[MaggieOH]

(cont)

Like all of Scripture, the Book of Revelation is a document that flows from one scene to another. There were no chapters and verses when this was written by John the Evangelist. This means to place the relevant verses into their context we need to do a little bit more in the way of digging. The first thing that you should recognize is that Rev12:1 actually flows on from Rev 11:19 when the heavens were opened and the Ark of the Covenant was revealed.

**The heavens did not reveal a wooden box, rather the heavens revealed a woman. That woman is Mary.

**Now flowing on from this we see the imagering of the woman clothed with the sun with the crown of 12 stars on her head. It really is the most beautiful of imagery because John is paying court to the Woman who is the Mother of Our Lord. Yet John has something else in mind. First he reveals that the child in the arms of the Woman is Jesus. Then he reveals the dragon is looking for both the Woman and Jesus. It is true, for we see this imagery in the Gospels when Herod goes searching for the infant in order to kill Him.

Now it is at this point when the imagery changes and we have your voice about the woman crying out loud in the pangs of childbirth that we see a new meaning in the words. Yes, the Woman is Mary, but she is also the Church. The pangs of childbirth do not relate to the actual birth of Jesus but they do relate to the birth of the Church. To give birth to the Church Jesus had to die, and the Woman no doubt cried for her Son during the time between His Death and His Resurrection. It was at the Cross that the Church was born for that is when Mary was given to John, and John to Mary, and so you have the two witnesses, the water and the blood (and the third witness is the Holy Spirit). So in this respect we do indeed have the birth of the child that is the Church. We also have the imagry of the dragon chasing the Mother and Child, and again we can apply this to the years of persecution and hardship of the newly founded Church during its earliest years. The Woman and child were taken to the desert, indicating the flight of the Christians out of Jerusalem.

So you see, there is not just one meaning in that scene, but there are multiple meanings to be obtained out of the imagery that is used.

It is a fallacy to state that Scripture interprets Scripture for even the ancients recognized that they this was not the case. That is why Moses had the duty of interpretation of the Laws for the people, and why the 70 elders were appointed to assist. It is also the reason that the Scribes were appointed to be interpreters of the Law. The Jews have a history of Midrash etc, and all of these things interpret the Scriptures. This fallacy actually limits the breadth and the depth of the hidden meaning of the Scriptures because of the limitations that it imposes upon Scripture.

If you want to comment on these points then let me know and we will start a new thread.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

**Hmmm, isn’t that what the Jews were doing when Moses came down from the mountain? :yup: **

they were doing a lot more than bowing down to a cow. Let’s not go there.

 

[John1717]

Lisa4Catholics:

The Catholic Church has never denied that Jesus is not the only way to heaven!Let me ask you a question Oudave who will judge the Muslims?

**You need to read John 14:6!!! :yup: **

 

[MaggieOH]

**We ask the living to pray for us not the dead! Mary nor any other “saint” cannot hear our prayers, which should be directed to God alone. Contacting the dead is forbidden in Scripture! :yup: **

So you continue to not believe in Eternal Life. The saints are not dead. They are alive in heaven

The Pharisees understood this point, the Sadducees did not. We do not contact the “dead” who are dead in Spirit. We contact the “Living” who are alive in Heaven, just as Moses and Elijah are alive in heaven.

Be careful you are straying off topic like always Jim

Maggie

 

[John1717]

MaggieOH:

they were doing a lot more than bowing down to a cow. Let’s not go there.

**Yea, I guess you don’t want to look at Exodus 20:4 or Deuteronomy 4:15-16!!! :tsktsk: **

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[MaggieOH]

Each day I pray for all lost souls who are trustingin a system to save them!

Now let’s get back on topic!

It is time you dropped the objections, began praying and saying a few Hail Marys and came back to the Church where you were baptized.

In that way you can start praying for other lost souls who prefer lies that are perpetrated by bigots over truth.

Maggie

 

[ANWK]

Hi John,

I knew that was coming when I submitted my logic argument. (By the way, your argument is not logic but rather an extrapolation that bothers on incredulity because I think your understanding of the Trinity may be slightly misaligned. God is a Trinity, but also 3 distinct persons. So Mary = Mother of God does not necessarily mean that Mary = Mother of the Trinity = Mother of God the Father anymore than Jesus dying on the cross means that God the Father also died on the cross!!!)

My logic is not flawed but rather you have chosen to project your own misunderstanding of the Trinity into it.

That is why I added the part about Elizabeth’s greeting to Mary while filled with the Holy Spirit, “mother of my Lord” and also Thomas exclamation of “My Lord and My God”.

This part of my reply regarding these 2 verses was so excellently omitted from your reply to me that anyone just reading your reply would think that the logic argument was all I had to offer.

A part of me wants to think that this is a genuine mistake on your part, the other part of me thinks that you really have no answer when it comes down to true Biblical proofs.

Prove me wrong otherwise and explain away Elizabeth’s greeting to Mary and tell me why that greeting doesn’t prove conclusively that Mary is the Mother of God.

 

[MaggieOH]

**Yea, I guess you don’t want to look at Exodus 20:4 or Deuteronomy 4:15-16!!! :tsktsk: **

No I do not want to discuss exactly what they were doing and it was not worship. Let us not go there Jim.

Maggie

 

[ANWK]

Hi John,

You said that contacting the dead was forbidden in the Bible… mmm… let’s see who Jesus was talking to on top of the mountain, Moses and Elijah. 2 supposedly “dead and long gone” characters in the Bible.

Or maybe they lived on in secret, hiding in a cave on the mountain until it was time for them to make an appearance together with Jesus?

Contacting the “dead” forbidden you say? Apparently Jesus did not have a problem with it. Why should we?

 

[MaggieOH]

Church Militant:

So like when any one sins…it’s someone else’s fault…isn’t this the same thing Eve said…(“It was the snake…”) LOL. We go off topic when we ALLOW ourselves to respond here to things that aren’t relevent. THAT’s why you open another thread…no more excuses…open the thread and I’m gonna bring my napkin to lunch 'cos you’re MINE!
http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage04/14.gif

That is just so funny. I love it:

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage04/14.gif

 

[MaggieOH]

**Yea, I guess you don’t want to look at Exodus 20:4 or Deuteronomy 4:15-16!!! :tsktsk: **

This is what I do to Evangelicals when they get too cheeky:

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage04/14.gif

Maggie

 

[Church_Militant]

Actually, you don’t stand a chance!

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**Now, let’s please get back on topic! :yup: **

Don’t sing it my friend…bring it… open the thread