Mass, Mahony Style

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

At the risk of interrupting this angerfest, what does this video have to do with a traditional Mass?

Haven’t you seen the memo?

This is exactly what it means to be a “Traditional Catholic”.

 

[Ham1]

Maybe it’s harder to watch liturgical abuses than it it is to watch reverent worship.

True the SSPX are disobedient, but their worship is very reverent and in keeping with the ancient traditions of the Church.

Innovations and liturgical abuses can be pretty hard to stomach.

Maybe that is why you have noticed people decry the videos of liturgical abuses.

So, if the sin looks pretty, it’s okay to be happy and call it “beautiful” but if the sin is displeasing to the eye it must be strongly condemned.

Sounds like a good theological principle.

 

[ncjohn]

The Vatican Art collection isn’t owned by the Church, but it was donated to a non-profit organization dedicated to it’s preservation.

It’s a rather similar relationship to that between the Smithsonian and the Federal Governement.

The only remaining artwork that the Church actually owns are those within the Churches themselves, so yes, I suppose they could tear off the Sistine Chapel ceiling and sell that off to feed the poor. Or, perhaps, sell of St. Peter’s as a whole to Ritz-Carlton, they could develop it into a luxury hotel\Resort.

Thoughts?

Whether they do or don’t own them any more isn’t really the point. The point is that the Church has often been criticized for sitting in its opulence while attempting to simultaneously preach care for the poor. I believe one can do both to some extent, but it is a fine line to walk before one gets attached to the opulence.

I’m not arguing for divestiture. I am only commenting on the inconsistency and selective condemnation of whose cathedral gets blasted. We have very expensive cathedrals all over the country–heck, all over the world!–but this particular one gets blasted only because people are wanting to take a swipe at this particular Cardinal.

Anyone want to take on the Pope for the “summer palace?” After all, it again could easily feed a lot of the poor for some period of time.

 

[paramedicgirl]

So, if the sin looks pretty, it’s okay to be happy and call it “beautiful” but if the sin is displeasing to the eye it must be strongly condemned.

Sounds like a good theological principle.

I’m not calling either Mass a sin, by the way; that was the language you used. But the difference is that one worships God, the other denigrates God.

 

[Ham1]

I’m not calling either Mass a sin, by the way; that was the language you used. But the difference is that one worships God, the other denigrates God.

Actually, both denigrate God. Because both acts disobey the legitimate authority of the Church. It seems that you hold appeal to the senses higher than the Law of the Church which is problematic. I know from your other posts that you abide by the laws of the Church, but I really think you ought to be consistent here. Both forms of abuse are deplorable and should be eradicated.

Yes, I said sin. A priest who knowingly (I think we can accurately assume that) abuses the liturgy commits a sin. A priest who knowingly consecrates the Eucharist despite knowing that he is in fact suspended and forbidden from doing so also commits a sin.

You should be consistent in holding priests accountable to the Laws of the Church.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Actually, both denigrate God. Because both acts disobey the legitimate authority of the Church. It seems that you hold appeal to the senses higher than the Law of the Church which is problematic. I know from your other posts that you abide by the laws of the Church, but I really think you ought to be consistent here. Both forms of abuse are deplorable and should be eradicated.

Yes, I said sin. A priest who knowingly (I think we can accurately assume that) abuses the liturgy commits a sin. A priest who knowingly consecrates the Eucharist despite knowing that he is in fact suspended and forbidden from doing so also commits a sin.

You should be consistent in holding priests accountable to the Laws of the Church.

No, Ham, I hold appeal to the traditions of the Church. Accountability is for God.

 

[sir_galahad]

Haven’t you seen the memo?

This is exactly what it means to be a “Traditional Catholic”.

What a cruel, uncharitable comment.

 

[Ham1]

No, Ham, I hold appeal to the traditions of the Church. Accountability is for God.

I see. So, if sin appears “traditional” to the senses it is to be applauded, but if appears “modern” it should be condemned. It seems you hold tradition higher than right and wrong.

You have no ground to stand on with this one.

 

[TNT]

I don’t mean to be rude, but what is the point of posting this? Is it to show that there are liturgical abuses in the Church? We already know this so what is the value of viewing it on a video? I guess I am missing how this is productive.

A video is worth a 1,000 pictures…somebody toll me that.
It’s really to show, IMHO that the NO mass is a putty ball in the hands of the wackiest liturgists, including JPII’s, if I recall.
WHEREAS, the only & constant criticism of the TLM is …“I remember in 1963, the priest said it in 20min.” oooooooooooh. Later it got down to 12min.
The TLM was made for uniformity of worship as best the Church knew how, developed over the centuries. The NOM was made for Non-uniformity, it is an infant in age, and teh hierarchy is still testing what the limits wll be.
Finally, there will. IMHO, never be a settled NOM, because the 3,000 bps. were given near carte blanche to “loose or bind” on their diocese’s Mass. The TLM has no such bp-infused options.
So, what some see as abuses, others see as options, and these abuse/options will NEVER cease in the NOM…ever. The whole design and its oversight are opposed to it.
That’s why I refer to it as a Liturgical putty ball. And Adoremus nor any other groups is going to have any lasting effect.
The Vatican can only stop the most outrageous of abuse/options even temporarily…
If you get a progressive Bp. he’ll affect what limits are allowed.
Think about this:
Those on CAF that praise the reverence of thier parish NOM are merely describing ever more closely, the actual practice of the TLM.
That’s pretty much how they measure “reverence”, by the standard of the TLM.

 

[Unfinished]

I saw this yesterday.

It made me sick to my stomach that is being taught/passed off by a Cardinal no less. Did you guys see the interview with the same Cardinal?

calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=af451e42-5a85-48e1-bf4d-852f443c705a

California Catholic Daily News writer “runs into” His Eminence at the March 1-3 Religious Education Congress. Their conversation follows.

Hi, Cardinal Mahony, I’m with California Catholic.

Mahony: Oh.

Yes, I just want to ask you, how is it that last year we had Father Timothy Radcliffe asking people to go see Brokeback Mountain and read gay novels and make gay friends, and you were sitting right there. Why would a priest be allowed to say that right on the stage here in the arena during his keynote speech?

Well, why are you asking me? Ask him.

Well, don’t you have anything to say about him telling Catholics to do those things?
**
Well, ask him.**

Why don’t you ask him? You were right there on the stage with him. It’s terrible that he did that. It’s terrible that a priest would come into this religious education congress and tell people to go see a homosexual movie. Why would you invite somebody to speak that would say that to the faithful?

Do you know how many speakers we have here?

Yes, I’m aware of it.
**
There’s 198 speakers. There’s no way to know in advance what every single speaker is going to say in the talk or in a question-and-answer period.**

Um-hmm.

There’s no way to know. I mean, you do your best… [remainder unintelligible on the tape due to crosstalk]

Could you issue a statement afterward saying that you didn’t agree with what he said?

Everybody knows what the Church position on that movie was, and I think everybody knows what we thought about it.

Okay, and is that why a gay and lesbian ministry booth is allowed to be here in the exhibition hall?

Well go ask them, go ask the ministry.

A ministry with them or to them — to people who suffer from same-sex attraction?

Go ask them.

I’m asking you. You’re the cardinal archbishop of Los Angeles.

And I know … what all sides are knowing and doing every second.

Well, I would think that you would understand something about what’s going on in your archdiocese.

Well, we’ll look into it.

Thank you.

What makes me even more sad is the fact that there is an entire generation of Catholics who do not even see the error in this Mass.

Mad? You should be. Some good email address to write to. I already have.

Pope Benedict
BenedictXVI@vatican.va

Archb. Pietro Sambi (USA Nuncio)
nuntiususa@nuntiususa.org
Embassy of the Apostolic Nunciature of the Holy See.
3339 Massachusetts Avenue NW,
Washington, DC 20008

Congr. Doctrine Faith (C. Levada)
cdf@cfaith.va

 

[paramedicgirl]

I see. So, if sin appears “traditional” to the senses it is to be applauded, but if appears “modern” it should be condemned. It seems you hold tradition higher than right and wrong.

You have no ground to stand on with this one.

No,no, you have me wrong. I do not condone either one. Both the SSPX Masses and the Mahony-style Masses are Masses to avoid.

I have been to both types of Masses, and it is much easier to sit through an SSPX Mass than it is to sit through a Mahony-style Mass. For you, it may be the opposite though, and I recognize that others may also feel that way.

I wish that all Masses were reverent, sacred and beautiful, just like Christ intended for them to be.

 

[pnewton]

A video is worth a 1,000 pictures…somebody toll me that.

One thing I have learned from the internet is that video and pictures both can be rather worthless. I am going back to words, where at least the context can be verified and understood. I have never seen a “clown” mass, halloween mass, or any other strange twist of mass in picture and video that has amounted to a single, well-phrased sentence from on in authority. What I have seen is a constant re-occuring red herring of “Nyah, nyah. My mass is better than yours is.”

 

[Brendan]

. We have very expensive cathedrals all over the country–heck, all over the world!–but this particular one gets blasted only because people are wanting to take a swipe at this particular Cardinal…

No, this particular cathedral gets blasted because it plain ugly.

If +Mahony had built a nice Spanish Mission style church (like the Notre Dame architecural school submitted) or perhaps an Italian baroque or American neo-gothic, no one here would be critizing the cathedral.

Instead, he chose to build “Our Lady, Queen of Concrete” topped by an androgenous representation of the the person who is the very model of feminity.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I saw this yesterday.

It made me sick to my stomach that is being taught/passed off by a Cardinal no less. Did you guys see the interview with the same Cardinal?

calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=af451e42-5a85-48e1-bf4d-852f443c705a

What makes me even more sad is the fact that there is an entire generation of Catholics who do not even see the error in this Mass.

Mad? You should be. Some good email address to write to. I already have.

Pope Benedict
BenedictXVI@vatican.va

Archb. Pietro Sambi (USA Nuncio)
nuntiususa@nuntiususa.org
Embassy of the Apostolic Nunciature of the Holy See.
3339 Massachusetts Avenue NW,
Washington, DC 20008

Congr. Doctrine Faith (C. Levada)
cdf@cfaith.va

Thanks for those addresses. I’m saving them.

 

[ncjohn]

No, this particular cathedral gets blasted because it plain ugly.

Uh, no…that’s not the case here.

This is the direct quote

No they can’t afford any metal liturgical items, they just built that 100 million dollar cathedral in LA, the taj-mahony. Starving people in Southern California but they can build a 100,000,000 dollar cathedral and incorporate non-catholic themes into it.
I feel sad, that money could have been spent to spread the Gospel of Christ, carry out Christ’s teachings, but no, it went to some building that wasn’t needed.

That is where I take issue with consistency and the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[TNT]

…

Instead, he chose to build “Our Lady, Queen of Concrete” topped by an androgenous representation of the the person who is the very model of feminity.

http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/laugh2.gif http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/laugh2.gif

 

[Ham1]

No,no, you have me wrong. I do not condone either one. Both the SSPX Masses and the Mahony-style Masses are Masses to avoid.

I have been to both types of Masses, and it is much easier to sit through an SSPX Mass than it is to sit through a Mahony-style Mass. For you, it may be the opposite though, and I recognize that others may also feel that way.

I wish that all Masses were reverent, sacred and beautiful, just like Christ intended for them to be.

I totally agree. I find both objectionable as well. I myself would probably see the accidents of the SSPX Mass as beautiful. But we don’t judge by accidents, we judge by essence - what something “is”. And both are wrong.

My point is that many here are quick to post a video like this one and say “how horrible.” But when an SSPX video is posted, the same people say “how beautiful.” Both are offensive in the eyes of God and we should not give one a free pass over the other. Let’s just all try to be more consistent.

 

[TNT]

Thanks for those addresses. I’m saving them.

To do what?
Start another FORM Letter file?

 

[paramedicgirl]

To do what?
Start another FORM Letter file?

Nope. I’m going to publish them on my blog so others can send in their complaints about abuses to the ones who can do something about it.

We all know the Vatican moves at glacial speed, though, so don’t expect any quick results.

 

[TNT]

One thing I have learned from the internet is that video and pictures both can be rather worthless…

Wonder why they have Traffic Cams, Security Cams, Cop Car Cams, and finally, if we only had a VIDEO at OJ’s trial…and every other Jury trial.
The Muslims LOVE them.
Finally, it’s just my experience, but there have been more “change-of-heart” on girls seeking abortion as a result of her unborn’s video than any talk fest.
Oh!
And those football replays for the referees/Umpires…inbounds or outa bounds.