Matthew 6:7 Repeating prayer

[jericho777]

Let’s make sure that we understand each other before we continue:

It’s my understanding that you believe the Lord’s Prayer is only a framework, and not a prayer itself. Am I incorrect in that understanding?

You can pray it but you are limiting it. As a frame work you can pray more in it.

Got to go.

 

[Gorgias]

You told me in post 52 that it was imperative to pray to the Father. Not optional. Please let me know how you reconcile your previous statement with your current position?

No – I said that Jesus’s instruction was a grammatical imperative – that is, Jesus is telling us “do this!”. Therefore, the Lord’s Prayer is a text that Jesus is telling us to pray. (In this way, I’m refuting your assertion – which you have still not substantiated from Scripture – that Luke 11 is only giving us a ‘model’ of prayer.) However, I didn’t claim that this was exclusively the only prayer that Christians are directed to pray.

Therefore: pray the Lord’s Prayer, verbatim, because Jesus told us to do that. In addition, other prayer forms are also possible, as we see in Scripture (and of which I provided two examples…).

 

[Gorgias]

You can pray it but you are limiting it.

Two thoughts:

First, by saying “you can pray it”, you’re conceding that it’s possible to pray it multiple times. Cool.

Second, can you demonstrate – from Scripture – that praying the Lord’s Prayer as written is “limiting” the prayer?

As a frame work you can pray more in it.

And Scripture tells you to use it as a framework… where? You still haven’t addressed this request.

Got to go.

OK. Have a good evening!

 

[pablope]

So why then would you have to say 10 repetitive prayers in order to perform penance. Shouldn’t once be suffecient? Or saying any number of repetitive prayers to get someone out of purgatory?

Sure…you can say one prayer once…but what does that get you?

Repeating the prayers, as instructed…It is to show our humility of being forgiven…for our offense against God. And to show our faith and obedience.

1Sam15:
22 But Samuel replied:
“Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the LORD?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Both prayers were prayers of petition. Jesus asked His Father directly related to the circumstance at hand. He wasn’t asking for His daily bread.
The widow in Lk 11 did not petition the judge with the Father did she. She asked for exactly what she needed. We are encouraged to certainly ask God to meet our needs daily.

Do you realize that asking God for our daily bread means far more than just food? Or asking that His Kingdom come has extremely important meaning? The Our Father is the quintessential prayer, as in it we ask God to do all necessary things for us. Jesus taught it to us, after all.

Also, both were prayers of petition, and you now acknowledge that. So you admit that Jesus prayed a prayer of petition, which the Our Father is, more than one time in a row. Interesting. I suppose Christ disobeyed His own teaching? Or maybe He was teaching something other than your notion…

To Luke 18, as with all the parables, the widow asking repeatedly was supposed to be an example for us; in this case, a good example. We are to ask God as the woman asked the judge (although the judge was portrayed as immoral simply to show that persistence goes a long way, and even more so with God, who is all good).

The Samaritan woman was not praying to Jesus. And she did not pray the our Father either. She simply asked for her need to be met. Incidentally prayer is for our benefit. God shows us the level of our commitment in our petitions to Him. However if we do not ask according to His will He will not grant our request.

Asking that our needs be met by God is prayer. I am not sure why you would disassociate those actions. She was praying to Jesus. He was literally there in front of her.

I don’t understand what you mean by God showing us our commitment by our petitions. If you believe we can show commitment by a petition, why couldn’t we show commitment by repetition? Or give an offering of time and mental effort by petition? I am not understanding.

Also, I would imagine our commitment is shown in a variety of ways, and the fervor of our prayer is certainly one. I also don’t see what this has to do with the fact that Jesus granted her a request after she asked multiple times. She asked the same thing multiple times, and Jesus did not rebuke her. He gave to her. Does it occur to you that maybe the Lord does want us to ask some things over and over again? Perhaps an offering of time in prayer, whether repeated or not, actually does please Him?

Actually I strive to be in context. You just don’t like what scripture says.

I am sorry, but so far I must disagree with this. The Church from the earliest years had fixed prayers that were said, such as the Liturgies. They also prayed the Psalms, as the Jews have also, and this would definitely classify as repeating prayer. And who are we to say that the early Church (and Jesus, as I’ve shown) is wrong?

 

[PeaceInChrist]

I used to be catholic so I know how it is. We would pray the rosary in school and it would turn into a monotone drone similar to a Buddhist chant. It became dulling to the senses. There was no freshness or intensity, just mindless repetition. I have seen it on EWTN and it had a Buddhist drone to it too.

Prayer is nothing more than speaking to God. It should also include quiet time to hear back from God.

I do not disagree that silent prayer is important. But why, because your experience was poor, must repeating a prayer be automatically bad? One of the most contemplative experiences I have had was brought about while praying a Rosary. Of course, it wasn’t mindless, as my mind was dwelling on the Mysteries, but even if I were unable to concentrate, the Lord accepts any offering we give Him, even time in prayer.

You also didn’t actually respond to many, many of my objections. I am tempted to repost that post, but I won’t, as I am not sure it will be answered. I do encourage you, however, to listen to the other posters here, as they have made excellent points. Consider that saying a prayer multiple times is not so bad. Jesus did the same, after all.

 

[jericho777]

Amen! We do pray to the Father.

The bible says we should pray to the Father. That was not the issue.

1 Matthew 6:8
“Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

2 Matthew 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

3 Matthew 18:19
“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

4 Luke 11:13
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

5 John 14:13
And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

6 John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

7 John 16:23
“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.

 

[po18guy]

The bible says we should pray to the Father. That was not the issue.

We can hurl verses back and forth until the end of time. So what?

The issue is not repetitive prayer, as Jesus taight us to pray repetitively, following His perfect example at Gethsemane.

The issue is VAIN repetitions.

Do you understand that there is a difference?

 

[jericho777]

Could you answer these questions, jericho? Thanks.

If you went to mass and the whole time you were there recited the same responsorial Psalm repeatedly you would accomplish nothing. There is no demonstration in scripture to turn any prayer into a mantra type exercise. Prayer is speaking to God and making your requests known to Him. Could you imagine talking to your friend and all you do is repeat the same 30 words over and over again without ceasing. They are going to look at you more than a little funny. Incidentally God can even speak to you if you let Him get a word in edgewise. Why would you petition the LORD with words that unrelated to your needs?

This thread was questioning serial repetitions of prayers in light of pagan practices. Pagans pray prayers repeatedly thinking their many words will gain favor with their deity. The more times they repeat those same words the more power in them. A form of torture is to replay on a loop the same words or song repeatedly without ceasing. After a while it drives you mad.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Why would you petition the LORD with words that unrelated to your needs?

Why would you tell God your needs, since Christ taught that the Father knows your needs?

 

[jericho777]

We can hurl verses back and forth until the end of time. So what?

The issue is not repetitive prayer, as Jesus taight us to pray repetitively, following His perfect example at Gethsemane.

The issue is VAIN repetitions.

Do you understand that there is a difference?

Jesus asking His Father three times “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” Is not teaching us to pray repetetitively in the sense of reciting the our Father 40 or 50 times in a row. Jesus did not just recite that prayer three times in rapid succession but waited in between for the Fathers response to Him. He stopped praying after the third time because the Father responded back to Him. Just as St Paul prayed three times. God responded by letting him know that God’s grace was suffecient in that affliction. As I stated earlier prayer is a two way conversation with God not just rattling off a bunch of words.

 

[jericho777]

Why would you tell God your needs, since Christ taught that the Father knows your needs?

Because we are directed to make our requests known to Him. It’s not for His benefit but ours. It builds trust and faith in our personal relationship with Him.

Mt 7:11 how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?

 

[po18guy]

Jesus asking His Father three times “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.” Is not teaching us to pray repetetitively in the sense of reciting the our Father 40 or 50 times in a row. Jesus did not just recite that prayer three times in rapid succession but waited in between for the Fathers response to Him. He stopped praying after the third time because the Father responded back to Him. Just as St Paul prayed three times. God responded by letting him know that God’s grace was suffecient in that affliction. As I stated earlier prayer is a two way conversation with God not just rattling off a bunch of words.

I hope that you are very young.

 

[PRmerger]

The bible says we should pray to the Father. That was not the issue.

Right.

You have added something to the Bible in saying that we need to pray ONLY to the Father.

That is a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, jericho. :sad_yes:

There is no reason to add an ONLY where none exists.

1 Matthew 6:8
“Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.

2 Matthew 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

3 Matthew 18:19
“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

4 Luke 11:13
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

5 John 14:13
And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

6 John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

7 John 16:23
“And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you.

Amen!

 

[PRmerger]

Because we are directed to make our requests known to Him. It’s not for His benefit but ours. It builds trust and faith in our personal relationship with Him.

Then you’d better call your pastor and have him/her stop your prayer chains ASAP! These prayer chains would be contradicting your paradigm above.

Mt 7:11 how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?

Amen!

 

[PRmerger]

If you went to mass and the whole time you were there recited the same responsorial Psalm repeatedly you would accomplish nothing.

Not sure what you mean here, jericho. We don’t “accomplish” anything at the Mass except participate in the Eternal Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary.

Not to mention we don’t have the rosary/repetition at Mass. Those prayers are reserved for our own private devotions, or devotions with our community.

There is no demonstration in scripture to turn any prayer into a mantra type exercise.

Well, now you’re changing your objection.

Are you saying: “if it’s not in Scripture you can’t do it!”

Be very careful how you answer, jericho. Because if that’s your paradigm then you can be assured that I’m going to offer you a bunch of things your church does that isn’t found in Scripture.

But if you’re saying, “Chanting prayers is contrary to Scripture” then, of course, you’re going to have to offer some Scripture verses that say that chanting prayers is an abomination.

So which one is your argument? The paradigm in red or the one in blue?

 

[po18guy]

For those who are confused by posts in this thread (or who are ignorant of the Catholic practice of contemplative prayer), here from the Catechism:

III. CONTEMPLATIVE PRAYER

2709 What is contemplative prayer? St. Teresa answers: "Contemplative prayer [oracion mental] in my opinion is nothing else than a close sharing between friends; it means taking time frequently to be alone with him who we know loves us."6 Contemplative prayer seeks him "whom my soul loves."7 It is Jesus, and in him, the Father. We seek him, because to desire him is always the beginning of love, and we seek him in that pure faith which causes us to be born of him and to live in him. In this inner prayer we can still meditate, but our attention is fixed on the Lord himself.

2710 The choice of the time and duration of the prayer arises from a determined will, revealing the secrets of the heart. One does not undertake contemplative prayer only when one has the time: one makes time for the Lord, with the firm determination not to give up, no matter what trials and dryness one may encounter. One cannot always meditate, but one can always enter into inner prayer, independently of the conditions of health, work, or emotional state. The heart is the place of this quest and encounter, in poverty and in faith.

2711 Entering into contemplative prayer is like entering into the Eucharistic liturgy: we “gather up:” the heart, recollect our whole being under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, abide in the dwelling place of the Lord which we are, awaken our faith in order to enter into the presence of him who awaits us. We let our masks fall and turn our hearts back to the Lord who loves us, so as to hand ourselves over to him as an offering to be purified and transformed.

2712 Contemplative prayer is the prayer of the child of God, of the forgiven sinner who agrees to welcome the love by which he is loved and who wants to respond to it by loving even more.8 But he knows that the love he is returning is poured out by the Spirit in his heart, for everything is grace from God. Contemplative prayer is the poor and humble surrender to the loving will of the Father in ever deeper union with his beloved Son.

2713 Contemplative prayer is the simplest expression of the mystery of prayer. It is a gift, a grace; it can be accepted only in humility and poverty. Contemplative prayer is a covenant relationship established by God within our hearts.9 Contemplative prayer is a communion in which the Holy Trinity conforms man, the image of God, “to his likeness.”

2714 Contemplative prayer is also the pre-eminently intense time of prayer. In it the Father strengthens our inner being with power through his Spirit “that Christ may dwell in [our] hearts through faith” and we may be "grounded in love."10

2715 Contemplation is a gaze of faith, fixed on Jesus. “I look at him and he looks at me”: this is what a certain peasant of Ars in the time of his holy curé used to say while praying before the tabernacle. This focus on Jesus is a renunciation of self. His gaze purifies our heart; the light of the countenance of Jesus illumines the eyes of our heart and teaches us to see everything in the light of his truth and his compassion for all men. Contemplation also turns its gaze on the mysteries of the life of Christ. Thus it learns the “interior knowledge of our Lord,” the more to love him and follow him.11

2716 Contemplative prayer is hearing the Word of God. Far from being passive, such attentiveness is the obedience of faith, the unconditional acceptance of a servant, and the loving commitment of a child. It participates in the “Yes” of the Son become servant and the Fiat of God’s lowly handmaid.

2717 Contemplative prayer is silence, the "symbol of the world to come"12 or "silent love."13 Words in this kind of prayer are not speeches; they are like kindling that feeds the fire of love. In this silence, unbearable to the “outer” man, the Father speaks to us his incarnate Word, who suffered, died, and rose; in this silence the Spirit of adoption enables us to share in the prayer of Jesus.

2718 Contemplative prayer is a union with the prayer of Christ insofar as it makes us participate in his mystery. The mystery of Christ is celebrated by the Church in the Eucharist, and the Holy Spirit makes it come alive in contemplative prayer so that our charity will manifest it in our acts.

2719 Contemplative prayer is a communion of love bearing Life for the multitude, to the extent that it consents to abide in the night of faith. The Paschal night of the Resurrection passes through the night of the agony and the tomb - the three intense moments of the Hour of Jesus which his Spirit (and not “the flesh [which] is weak”) brings to life in prayer. We must be willing to “keep watch with [him] one hour.”

 

[Filioque]

I don’t understand them. Constantly repeating the same thing over and over again leads to mental fatigue and lethargy.

Besides the rosary was invented about 1000 years or so after Jesus. I don’t see the relevency in christianity.

First the history of the rosary and other devotions like it are much more detailed than writing it off as something that was invented 1000 years after Jesus. Forms of prayers like the rosary have existed from the earliest days of the Church. If we have to toss out anything that was invented after the Apostles, we have to eject the order of Protestant services, and the layout of most protestant churches, in those places where there is a pulpit, doctoral robes or suits for the minster, or choir in the front of the church, jettison those man made invetions, and dress the minister and congregation in the clothing Jesus and the Apostles wore, after all we don’t want to be accused of chasing after the latest fashions. As we would have to do with most of all the novel doctrines which are over 1500 years after Jesus developed by various Protestant groups.

As to the Rosary, when we realize that all 15 mysteries are a total of 150 Ave’s and developed to emulate the praying of the 150 Psalms for those who did not have the ability to read or memorize the psalter before books and literacy were common, we see the first link. Secondly the Ave and Pater while an active prayer are not the primary purpose of the Rosary, the primary intent of the Rosary is the meditation on the mysteries with each decade, all of which can be found either explicitly or in the case of the Assumption and Coronation implicitly in the Scriptures. If you were instructed properly when you were a taught the rosary, you would know that the meditation on the mysteries are not just important but required to pray the devotion properly.

For myself, the rosary was at first a bit of a challenge at first. But like any spiritual practice, It is dependent on how the person seeks after God, if as a child one thinks magically about the rosary, that you will get a reward for the number of beads you tell, well than you’ve either got an undeveloped spiritual life, or don’t understand the devotion. If however over time you practice daily your communion with God and the mysteries of His life, plan of our salvation and actions in our lives, you will come to a closer walk with God.
You may want to look for a book titled, “Five for Sorrow, Ten for Joy” A book written by a Methodist minsiter who after investigating the rosary started encoraging it among his congregation. As far as I know (if he is still alive, since the book was first published around 40 years ago) he not a Catholic today. (but that’s fodder for another thread)
After a time the rosary became a means not of numbing but in making the life of Christ come alive, and more relevant for my life. As it does for those who are using it appropriatly. As it is not the only devotion I practice, nor required of all Catholics, but useful, Many of us also pray the office, and read the Scriptures and other theological and spiritual books. If repetiton was banned then we would need only read the scriptures once, and then move on with our lives, or ask God something once and let it go. The practice of repetition is more for our spiritual growth, not for the benefit of God. While for some it may start out as rote, if they persist, and are open to God’s grace it will with a proper spiritual life grow from rote and simple habit, to a spiritual habit which increases our faith, and love of God.

If we fall into sin, and it becomes a habitual problem, we need to replace it with a positive and Godly practice. On the premise of banning repetion, then any spiritual practice that provides us with the remedy for falling into sin would be useless because we would sin, ask God for forgiveness for that sin, and then carry on, if we repeated the sin, well we’ve already asked God for forgiveness, so why bother asking again, He forgave us. (may sound silly but many of those who believe “OSAS” believe such novel doctrines.)

A last thought, because I tend to go on… If one draws a parallel between repeted prayers or other legitimate spiritual practices and our daily bread. We do not eat once and then say, OK I’ve eaten, my body has nourishment, I don’t need to do that again. Food, and liquids are something we need to take in daily to maintain a sound body, along with some sort of exercise plan. If we eat without concern about what we are taking in, we become overweight, or sick. If we don’t eat, we become sick and die. A prayer routine, both formal and informal prayer, even when we are not focused 100 % at every moment, keeps us nourished and spiritually connected to God so that we can be fit and advance in the spirtual life as we grow.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Because we are directed to make our requests known to Him. It’s not for His benefit but ours. It builds trust and faith in our personal relationship with Him.

Mt 7:11 how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?

Only if one agrees with the interpretation you present on scriptures. For instance, you use three verses from John, where Christ was only addressing His apostles; those He chose and appointed. You won’t find the same instructions taught to the multitudes.

Also, are you asking good things of this earth from the Father, who knows your needs? Are there not better things to receive from our Father, who is is heaven?

If one gives any credit at all to the early Church fathers, St. Chrysostom spoke, in context of the entire passage of course.

Chrys.: There are two things behoveful for one that prays; that he ask earnestly; and that he ask such things as he ought to ask. And those are spiritual things; as Solomon, because he asked such things as were right, received speedily.

Chrys.: This He said not detracting from human nature, nor confessing the whole human race to be evil; but He calls paternal love “evil” when compared with His own goodness. Such is the superabundance of His love towards men.

Pseudo-Chrys.: Because in comparison of God who is preeminently good, all men seem to be evil, as all light shews dark when compared with the sun.

St Remigius stated:

Remig.: The sense therefore is: we need not fear that should we ask of God our Father bread, that is doctrine or love, He will give us a stone; that is, that He will suffer our heart to be contracted either by the frost of hatred or by hardness of soul; or that when we ask for faith, He will suffer us to die of the poison of unbelief. Thence it follows, “If then ye being evil.”

Remig.: And be it known that where Matthew says, “He shall give good things,” Luke has, “shall give his Holy Spirit.” [Luk_11:13] But this ought not to seem contrary, because all the good things which man receives from God, are given by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Blessed Rabanus:

Rabanus: Or; bread which is the common food signifies charity, without which the other virtues are of no avail. The fish signifies faith, which is born of the water of baptism, is tossed in the midst of the waves of this life and yet lives. Luke adds a third thing, “an egg,” [Luk_11:12] which signifies hope; for an egg is the hope of the animal. To charity, He opposes “a stone,” that is, the hardness of hatred; to faith, “a serpent,” that is, the venom of treachery; to hope, “a scorpion,” that is, despair, which stings backward, as the scorpion.

It doesn’t seem the men of the early Church viewed that scripture verse as ‘our requests’ generally.

He knows our needs, and the gifts He gives are far better than any earthly ‘request.’

 

[po18guy]

First the history of the rosary and other devotions

You are fighting the strength of the human ego and the private interpretation of scrioture. Prayer with God is a two-way street, but not so with some monologues here on CAF…