Mormonism, Catholicism and Devoutness

[gazelam]

The 17 August 1949 official Mormon statement from the first presidency on Blacks and the priesthood was declared as doctrine.

A private letter between the First Presidency and the President of BYU is not an official statement of the Church nor is it the vehicle through which doctrine is made manifest to the general membership.

D&C 101:4 was changed by Section 132.

Where is the change in doctrine here? The Book of Mormon plainly teaches, one wife, unless the Lord commands otherwise.

Read the Book of Mormon and see what it says about:

God having once been a man. Nothing

The Bible plainly teaches that God the Father is a man.

God having fathered Jesus by sexual relations with Mary. Nothing

The is not Latter-day Saint belief, but more like anti-Mormon yellow journalism.

God having a body of flesh and bones. Nothing

This is taught plainly in the Bible.

God being a polygamist. Nothing

This is not Latter-day Saint belief.

God is eternally progressing. Nothing

Some of this is in the Book of Mormon (see Alma 42)

That we can become Gods. Nothing

This is taught plainly in the Bible.

 

[gazelam]

The Mormon god is not the single self-actualized principle of all being, but a divinized being with a distinct beginning among a multiplicity of such beings. Created human beings walking the earth now aspire to become the same (a misunderstanding of orthodox theosis).

You didn’t answer my question as to what your definition of “creature” is, but I’ll assume that it means a living entity created out of nothing by God (Who is an eternally divine Being composed of an immaterial spirit essence.)

You understanding of Latter-day Saint theology is mistaken since Latter-day Saints believe that God and all of us have existed forever. None of us is created ex-nihilo.

 

[Stephen168]

You understanding of Latter-day Saint theology is mistaken since Latter-day Saints believe that God and all of us have existed forever.

It seems like you agree with Genesis315. Mormons believe God is a creature in the same way humans are creatures.

 

[OddBird]

Off my hat, I can think of the deaconesses of Reuilly and the Pomeyrol sisters in France, and the deaconesses of Saint-Loup and the Grandchamp sisters in Switzerland.

I was invited to the solemn profession of a friend in Grandchamp two years ago, and from what I can tell what happens is the same than for any solemn profession in a Catholic monastery, except she didn’t receive a ring and we prayed the Litany of the Holy Name of Jesus instead of the Litany of the saints. So I guess it’s not similar to Mormon vows

There are professed Protestants brothers in the monastery of Bose in Northern Italy, and they make a canonically recognized profession, as Bose has a canonical status.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t think you can find a single protestant or non-catholic who live and have taken a vow of chastity, poverty and obedience to faith in Jesus Christ body.

There are boatloads of communities of Anglican Benedictines. They are similar to Catholic Benedictines. Benedictines live in community and take vows of stability, fidelity and obedience; although they do not explicitly take vows of poverty and chastity, those are considered implicit in the vows that they do take.

Order of St Benedict (Anglican) - Wikipedia

As for you asking later on if they’re anything like Mormons, I somehow doubt it. Anglicans are probably most similar to Catholics, although they are Protestant.

 

[Formon]

A private letter between the First Presidency and the President of BYU is not an official statement of the Church nor is it the vehicle through which doctrine is made manifest to the general membership.

A statement from the first presidency declaring it as doctrinal is good enough for me. It was doctrinal, unless you’re calling George Albert Smith a liar.

It is also interesting to note that when Mike Wallace was interviewing Hinckley, he asked him why Blacks were denied the priesthood and Hinckley responded, “Because the leaders of the church at that time interpreted that doctrine that way.” So even Hinckley admitted that it was doctrine then. He also made it clear that doctrines change.

Where is the change in doctrine here? The Book of Mormon plainly teaches, one wife, unless the Lord commands otherwise.

Have you ever read the scripture I’m referring to? If you did, you would certainly see that the doctrine has changed. Why would they otherwise remove it from the LDS canon? And why do you go to the BOM when I was speaking about the D&C?

Also, if the D&C is doctrine, which perhaps you don’t agree with, did it not apply to Joseph Smith as well?

The Bible plainly teaches that God the Father is a man.

I was talking about the Book of Mormon, not the Bible.

The is not Latter-day Saint belief, but more like anti-Mormon yellow journalism.

Nonsense. This was clearly taught by early church leaders and I’ve heard it many times in my days. The younger generations of LDS have tried to distance themselves from the embarrassment of it.

This is taught plainly in the Bible.

Again, I was clearly speaking of the Book of Mormon. You’re dancing. Most of your rebuttals is to refer to the Bible when I was talking about the Book of Mormon. Why do you avoid the discussion?

 

[openmind77]

Formon:

God having a body of flesh and bones. Nothing

This is taught plainly in the Bible.

Is it really in the Bible that God has a body of flesh and bones? Can you give a reference?

Formon:

That we can become Gods. Nothing

This is taught plainly in the Bible.

Is it really taught in the Bible that we can become Gods? Can you give chapter/verse? Thanks.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Is it really taught in the Bible that we can become Gods? Can you give chapter/verse? Thanks.

Catholic teaching on this here

Are We Gods? | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[Sarcelle]

Heard it and read it several times.

The Catholic Church is the whore of Rome and the other Protestant Churches, are the harlot daughters of the whore of Rome.

 

[whatistrue]

Try me.

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting with respect to knowledge of what the Catholic Church actually teaches more times than I can count. Yes, you love to verse-sling and misquote Church Fathers, but that doesn’t work for long or with many here.

OK, let me rephrase.

How about not? Artificially limiting the discussion to a specific subtopic that you choose in advance is not how debate works.

 

[whatistrue]

Probably as good a description of Mormon mission work as any. Trying to sell you on a “pie in the sky by and by, but only if you pay for it and don’t ask too many questions” sort of deal.

 

[Formon]

Oh, brother! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been down this road with Mormons. He’s getting exactly what he wants–an opportunity to try to prove you wrong. A proselytizing moment is here.

 

[Apache78]

Please give us some of your knowledge of the Catholic Church or should I say your skewed version of it. You know nothing from all your other posts you have on here. You try and twist our teachings to fit yours.

 

[gazelam]

It seems like you agree with Genesis315. Mormons believe God is a creature in the same way humans are creatures.

And that would be a creature in the “creatio ex-materia” sense, with both man and The Father having bodies fashioned from pre-existing matter, and both being of the same species as indicated in Acts 17:29 Being therefore the offspring of God

It is also interesting to note that when Mike Wallace was interviewing Hinckley, he asked him why Blacks were denied the priesthood and Hinckley responded, “Because the leaders of the church at that time interpreted that doctrine that way.” So even Hinckley admitted that it was doctrine then. He also made it clear that doctrines change.

President Hinckley was giving an informal interview using imprecise language and was not making formal doctrinal pronouncements. Mike Wallace also asked about the Priesthood ban from 1830 to 1978 which President Hinckley confirmed. He [Hinckley] didn’t stop and explain that it really started in 1852 but was giving a general answer suitable for the occasion.

Most of your rebuttals is to refer to the Bible when I was talking about the Book of Mormon. Why do you avoid the discussion?

OK, why is it problematic to you if there are some Latter-day Saint doctrines not found in the Book of Mormon?

Is it really in the Bible that God has a body of flesh and bones? Can you give a reference?

Sure. Philippians 3:21 teaches that the resurrected Christ has a glorified body.

He [Christ] will change our lowly body to conform with his [Christ’s] glorified body

Hebrews 1:3 teaches that Christ is the exact likeness of God the Father.

He [Christ] reflects the brightness of God’s glory and is the exact likeness of God’s own being,

Is it really taught in the Bible that we can become Gods? Can you give chapter/verse? Thanks.

Latter-day Saint would probably feel more comfortable stating that we could become “like God”.

Colossians 1:19 (Good News Translation) For it was by God’s own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him , that we may be also glorified together.

Christ has the full nature of God and the righteous can also inherit that nature.

 

[openmind77]

openmind77:

Is it really in the Bible that God has a body of flesh and bones? Can you give a reference?

Sure. Philippians 3:21 teaches that the resurrected Christ has a glorified body.

He [Christ] will change our lowly body to conform with his [Christ’s] glorified body

Hebrews 1:3 teaches that Christ is the exact likeness of God the Father.

He [Christ] reflects the brightness of God’s glory and is the exact likeness of God’s own being,

So Mormons believe that the glorified body of the Christ as well as that of the Father is made of flesh, blood and bones? I am not sure that is standard Catholic/Christian understanding of the glorified body, but I could be wrong.

openmind77:

Is it really taught in the Bible that we can become Gods? Can you give chapter/verse? Thanks.

Latter-day Saint would probably feel more comfortable stating that we could become “like God”.

Colossians 1:19 (Good News Translation) For it was by God’s own decision that the Son has in himself the full nature of God.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him , that we may be also glorified together.

Christ has the full nature of God and the righteous can also inherit that nature.

OK, thanks.

 

[Formon]

President Hinckley was giving an informal interview using imprecise language and was not making formal doctrinal pronouncements.

He called it doctrine. Do you have a problem with that?

 

[Formon]

OK, why is it problematic to you if there are some Latter-day Saint doctrines not found in the Book of Mormon?

You were the one avoiding the Book of Mormon. Seems you’re the one who has a problem with it.

 

[PeterT]

As for you asking later on if they’re anything like Mormons, I somehow doubt it. Anglicans are probably most similar to Catholics, although they are Protestant.

The Anglican Church, especially their “high church”, is basically a breakaway branch of the Roman Catholic Church. It’s one reason why Anglican faith communities have been allowed to return to the Catholic Church via the three Personal Ordinariates that the Vatican has set up for the former Anglican communities: the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham, the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of the Southern Cross and the Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter.

 

[Stephen168]

And that would be a creature in the “creatio ex-materia” sense, with both man and The Father having bodies fashioned from pre-existing matter, and both being of the same species as indicated in Acts 17:29

Right, like man, the god of Mormonism is a creature. So @Genesis315 is right.

God himself was Once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. - Joseph Smith, 1844

Gods and humans represent a single divine lineage, the same species of being, although they and he are at different stages of progress. This doctrine is stated concisely in a well-known couplet by President Lorenzo Snow: “As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be” - Encyclopdia of Mormonism

 

[gazelam]

gazelam:

OK, why is it problematic to you if there are some Latter-day Saint doctrines not found in the Book of Mormon?

You were the one avoiding the Book of Mormon. Seems you’re the one who has a problem with it.

In a Catholic debate forum the Book of Mormon wouldn’t be considered authoritative for debating theology, but the Bible would be. The Book of Mormon might be better suited in this forum to answer someone’s question someone might have about Latter-day Saint belief. I hope this helps…

Right, like man, the god of Mormonism is a creature. So @Genesis315 is right.

In Latter-day Saint belief both God and Man have no beginning and therefore aren’t creatures in the classic Trinitarian sense. It all depends on one’s definition of creature (out of nothing or out of something.)