Most Catholic women use birth control banned by church

[crazzeto]

I don’t think that shop lifting can really be compared to ABC. Shoplifting hurts someone (business owner) financially.

ABC is two married persons wishing to avoid having another child which is not unlike two married persons using NFP to avoid having another child. These two married persons are not hurting another person.

I am not using ABC per se; I am just stating what many many people feel and don’t share on CAF due to the strong opposition.

There is no such thing as a private sin, and ABC does hurt someone as my previous posting would suggest. The fact that ABC hurts people is the very reason why my wife and I are struggling.

The Pill:
Hurts the unborn directly, but acting as an abortive as part of it’s function. This is also true of other methods like IUD etc.

All ABC hurts others in this way:
They teach your children that we only need heed the teachings of Christ in so far as they do not interfer with our lives. They do not merely teach our Children though, we teach each other this message by normailizing ABC. This has been Satan’s most effective tool, simply “be reasnoble”. The Holy Father is very erdate on this matter in his book, Jesus of Nazereth, from the baptism to the transfiguration, in his discourse on the temptation of Christ.

Sometimes what God asks us, on the surface may seem unreasnoble. Like the widow who was asked by the prophet to make a cake for him, out of her last stores of grain and water. Yet she was fed for years, after surrendering all she had to God, via the prophet. The same is true of us, we must fully surrender to Christ, and this includes the topic of regulating births.

The regulation of Births is a good, yes. But the methods we use can be evil, and there for we must strive to find good methods, to achieve the good of regulating births.

 

[1holycatholic]

I don’t think that shop lifting can really be compared to ABC. Shoplifting hurts someone (business owner) financially.

ABC is two married persons wishing to avoid having another child which is not unlike two married persons using NFP to avoid having another child. These two married persons are not hurting another person.

I am not using ABC per se; I am just stating what many many people feel and don’t share on CAF due to the strong opposition.

They are both grave sins.

With contraception each person is hurting themselves and the other person.

Sin hurts everyone, and it is an offense against God.

 

[Serap]

They are both grave sins.

With contraception each person is hurting themselves and the other person.

Sin hurts everyone, and it is an offense against God.

I just read the following and it was an interesting read…

lisashea.com/lisabase/aboutme/birthcontrol.html

I don’t see that at all. I see loving couples who are enjoying their families using ABC. They are not hurting themselves or the other person.

 

[crazzeto]

I just read the following and it was an interesting read…

lisashea.com/lisabase/aboutme/birthcontrol.html

I don’t see that at all. I see loving couples who are enjoying their families using ABC. They are not hurting themselves or the other person.

Serap,

I once did think as you do now… I really did, and sadly while I’m not a woman I am a number of the majority of Catholics who at least once used ABC methods (shot administered to GF, pill, condoms of course) and who now deeply regrets it. For me praying the rosary and discovery of the Mass (what the mass truely is) set me on a collision course of not being able to deny the fundamental and earth shattering consequences of the words “the Christ is risen”.

If we beleive these words, and we beleive that the Christ left a visible church (I accept both) then we must, must believe everything that visible Church says about the Christ, and her self as Christs bride.

One charism given the Church is infalibility in the matters of faith and morals. This is hard to accept, very hard to accept. I spent sleepless nights over this, truely I did. I supported gay marriage, because I beleived everyone deserved “fundamental rights”, even though I didn’t know what that even meant. I supported ABC, thankfully though I never was directly pro-choice per-se.

Christ is risen, and the Church is true. I would ask you to consider this, as well as at least in the spirit of giving the Bishops the benefit of the doubt, read what they have to say about ABC. I have since lost the links, but if you can find it the Bishops of the Philipeses in the context of impending gay marriage legal votes wrote an eye opening peice about the effect of ABC and our culture.

Yes, it’s apparent, ABC is intrinsically evil. It does hurt, I offered only two examples of how they hurt, but the hurt is far deeper than what I describe.

God bless,

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I just read the following and it was an interesting read…

lisashea.com/lisabase/aboutme/birthcontrol.html

I don’t see that at all. I see loving couples who are enjoying their families using ABC. They are not hurting themselves or the other person.

They are hurting each other.

If you read Dr. Von Hildebrand (I posted it in this thread) he refers to it as desecration.

Taking something HOLY and making it PROFANE.

ABC has worked to make women objects much more so than anything else.

Instead of respecting a woman’s fertility, a woman’s cycle, how she varies from being fertile and infertile, ABC says it doesn’t matter, sex is just reduced to urges being sated.

 

[Rascalking]

Serap,

I once did think as you do now… I really did, and sadly while I’m not a woman I am a number of the majority of Catholics who at least once used ABC methods (shot administered to GF, pill, condoms of course) and who now deeply regrets it. For me praying the rosary and discovery of the Mass (what the mass truely is) set me on a collision course of not being able to deny the fundamental and earth shattering consequences of the words “the Christ is risen”.

If we beleive these words, and we beleive that the Christ left a visible church (I accept both) then we must, must believe everything that visible Church says about the Christ, and her self as Christs bride.

One charism given the Church is infalibility in the matters of faith and morals. This is hard to accept, very hard to accept. I spent sleepless nights over this, truely I did. I supported gay marriage, because I beleived everyone deserved “fundamental rights”, even though I didn’t know what that even meant. I supported ABC, thankfully though I never was directly pro-choice per-se.

Christ is risen, and the Church is true. I would ask you to consider this, as well as at least in the spirit of giving the Bishops the benefit of the doubt, read what they have to say about ABC. I have since lost the links, but if you can find it the Bishops of the Philipeses in the context of impending gay marriage legal votes wrote an eye opening peice about the effect of ABC and our culture.

Yes, it’s apparent, ABC is intrinsically evil. It does hurt, I offered only two examples of how they hurt, but the hurt is far deeper than what I describe.

God bless,

I think this is the nicest post I’ve read on the entire thread. You defended your points, but I can see the charity and love in it. I wish more posts were like this…

Thanks.

 

[Serap]

Serap,

I once did think as you do now… I really did, and sadly while I’m not a woman I am a number of the majority of Catholics who at least once used ABC methods (shot administered to GF, pill, condoms of course) and who now deeply regrets it. For me praying the rosary and discovery of the Mass (what the mass truely is) set me on a collision course of not being able to deny the fundamental and earth shattering consequences of the words “the Christ is risen”.

If we beleive these words, and we beleive that the Christ left a visible church (I accept both) then we must, must believe everything that visible Church says about the Christ, and her self as Christs bride.

One charism given the Church is infalibility in the matters of faith and morals. This is hard to accept, very hard to accept. I spent sleepless nights over this, truely I did. I supported gay marriage, because I beleived everyone deserved “fundamental rights”, even though I didn’t know what that even meant. I supported ABC, thankfully though I never was directly pro-choice per-se.

Christ is risen, and the Church is true. I would ask you to consider this, as well as at least in the spirit of giving the Bishops the benefit of the doubt, read what they have to say about ABC. I have since lost the links, but if you can find it the Bishops of the Philipeses in the context of impending gay marriage legal votes wrote an eye opening peice about the effect of ABC and our culture.

Yes, it’s apparent, ABC is intrinsically evil. It does hurt, I offered only two examples of how they hurt, but the hurt is far deeper than what I describe.

God bless,

Thanks for sharing. God bless.

 

[Serap]

They are hurting each other.

If you read Dr. Von Hildebrand (I posted it in this thread) he refers to it as desecration.

Taking something HOLY and making it PROFANE.

ABC has worked to make women objects much more so than anything else.

Instead of respecting a woman’s fertility, a woman’s cycle, how she varies from being fertile and infertile, ABC says it doesn’t matter, sex is just reduced to urges being sated.

for the record…I think you are lovely woman…as I do Wanner…we have shared our pregnancies with eachother and I respect you both.

Response to your post:

In a loving marriage, I don’t think that’s the case.

Picking up a woman at a nightclub…yes, that’s the case.

I understand why the Catholic church keeps it’s stance and it is stated eloquently in this article that I read.

lisashea.com/lisabase/aboutme/birthcontrol.html

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

for the record…I think you are lovely woman…as I do Wanner…we have shared our pregnancies with eachother and I respect you both.

Response to your post:

In a loving marriage, I don’t think that’s the case.

Picking up a woman at a nightclub…yes, that’s the case.

I understand why the Catholic church keeps it’s stance and it is stated eloquently in this article that I read.

lisashea.com/lisabase/aboutme/birthcontrol.html

Truthfully Serap, don’t read anti Catholic bloggers to get your information. From Lisa Shae:

The full responsibility here lies with Catholic Church members. Non-Catholics cannot force the Catholic church to change. Only Catholics can choose the policy and direction of their own church. 96% of Catholic women have used birth control - yet they give money and support to an institution which is the loudest voice against birth control. It is those women’s responsibility to force the Catholic church to change - or to withhold that income so that the church does not have the power to mandate policy for others. Otherwise those women are directly responsible for the casualties caused across the entire world directly caused by their “well paid representatives” in the clergy. Nobody else can possibly cause that change to occur.

Try reading the Von Hildebrands (Alice and Dietrich)

 

[Serap]

Truthfully Serap, don’t read anti Catholic bloggers to get your information. From Lisa Shae:

Try reading the Von Hildebrands (Alice and Dietrich)

But her facts are all correct, no? I know she has an “agenda”, but she still stuck to the facts in history.

It is interesting that Pope John Paul I mysteriously died after 33 days.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

But her facts are all correct, no? I know she has an “agenda”, but she still stuck to the facts in history.

It is interesting that Pope John Paul I mysteriously died after 33 days.

OK, I guess our Faith must be a huge conspiracy theory. Was he killed because he was going to allow ABC? Or maybe Michael Corleone did it?

Read this:

vidahumana.org/english/family/male-female.html

 

[crazzeto]

But her facts are all correct, no? I know she has an “agenda”, but she still stuck to the facts in history.

It is interesting that Pope John Paul I mysteriously died after 33 days.

No, actually I take serious serious serious issue with her so called facts. In fact, one single quotation from your link to her blog I think is key in understaing her error, and the correctness of the Churches position:

Modern Times
In 1966, there was a Papal Commission on Birth Control. This Commission voted 30-5 to relax the concerns on birth control. But in 1968, Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitae reiterated the anti-birth-control stance. He said this was necessary for several reasons:

• The commission was not unanimous. It would be wrong on such an important issue to force church members who were strongly against a drastic change to accept it. Especially when the church was 100% steady on this issue for almost 2,000 years.
• If the church said that birth control was a moral thing to do, it could lead to governments forcing sterilization on people. For example, the government could force mentally challenged men to be castrated, and mentally challenged women to have their tubes tied. Governments could force sterilizations on “undesireable races” to prevent them from having children. It wasn’t that long ago that Sweden force-sterilized 21,000 people.

*** If sex was not about creating children in a loving family, then sex would solely be about pleasure with no responsibility. Men who used women for sex as a pleasure object would lose respect for them. Once men treat women as an object, it leads to emotional abuse, physical abuse, and rape.**

*** God created sex to create children. That was his specific desire and mandate. Man should not second-guess God and interfere with His system.**

While I do believe in birth control, it is worth it to really think about these issues.* Pope Paul VI was not simply quoting ancient Bible verses to make his point.* He brings up some fairly legitimate concerns.

1. The pontiffs points have been true, and have played out in history. In particular they have played out to extrodenary effect in our time since the so called “sexual revolution”. We see exactly what the Pope was talking about happening now, every day, before our eyes.
2. It is clear that this blogger chooses not allow faith to inform her view points. The Pope is not merely quoting some ancient book? This ancient book records the living Word of God, it records the time the Logos it’s self spend with us, the very risen Christ. This is no mere ancient books, this is not the illiand, nor the oddesy nor some fable about a lost contenant upon which we base our morality.

Thus her error is exposed, God is at best secondary to her. I ask, is this the faith that bares fruite and leads one into the boosom of the Christ?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Also note Pope John Paul I was 66 when he died.

My father died at 64. 3 weeks earlier he had a physical, and was told he would live to 100.

Sometimes, people die suddenly.

 

[Tigg]

Serap,

I once did think as you do now… I really did, and sadly while I’m not a woman I am a number of the majority of Catholics who at least once used ABC methods (shot administered to GF, pill, condoms of course) and who now deeply regrets it. For me praying the rosary and discovery of the Mass (what the mass truely is) set me on a collision course of not being able to deny the fundamental and earth shattering consequences of the words “the Christ is risen”.

One charism given the Church is infalibility in the matters of faith and morals. This is hard to accept, very hard to accept. I spent sleepless nights over this, truely I did. I supported gay marriage, because I beleived everyone deserved “fundamental rights”, even though I didn’t know what that even meant. I supported ABC, thankfully though I never was directly pro-choice per-se.

Christ is risen, and the Church is true. I would ask you to consider this, as well as at least in the spirit of giving the Bishops the benefit of the doubt, read what they have to say about ABC. I have since lost the links, but if you can find it the Bishops of the Philipeses in the context of impending gay marriage legal votes wrote an eye opening peice about the effect of ABC and our culture.

Yes, it’s apparent, ABC is intrinsically evil. It does hurt, I offered only two examples of how they hurt, but the hurt is far deeper than what I describe.

God bless,

Great post!

If we beleive these words, and we beleive that the Christ left a visible church (I accept both) then we must, must believe everything that visible Church says about the Christ, and her self as Christs bride.

**You have absolutely pin-pointed the crux of this issue! **Sadly the dissenters don’t believe, and the fuzzy lines they have drawn for themselves convince them in their heart they have a mountain upon which to stand and rail against 2,000 years of truth and tradition! They will tell you they truly believe in the presence of the Spirit, Who has never left and continues to speak thru the Church, but they don’t realize the noise of their dissent prevents them from hearing! You see, they want no imposition put upon THEIR rebellious will, and if their heretical judgment differs from the Church, then they automatically assume their “truth” is the rational one because they lack **supernatural **faith. Sadly theirs is only a human conviction which opposes God Himself. If it wasn’t, how else to explain this exodus from truth?

 

[crazzeto]

Great post!

**You have absolutely pin-pointed the crux of this issue! **Sadly the dissenters don’t believe, and the fuzzy lines they have drawn for themselves convince them in their heart they have a mountain upon which to stand and rail against 2,000 years of truth and tradition! They will tell you they truly believe in the presence of the Spirit, Who has never left and continues to speak thru the Church, but they don’t realize the noise of their dissent prevents them from hearing! You see, they want no imposition put upon THEIR rebellious will, and if their heretical judgment differs from the Church, then they automatically assume their “truth” is the rational one because they lack **supernatural **faith. Sadly theirs is only a human conviction which opposes God Himself. If it wasn’t, how else to explain this exodus from truth?

I would somewhat agree, though perhaps I would be a little more charitable as I was once one of those very people you describe. Even when I was furthest from the Lord, I didn’t necessarly feel far from the Lord. I never rejected Christ and even continued defending Christianity despite the fact that my works would have you believe I was fully a secular humanist. I think you hit the nail on the head with “the noise prevents them from hearing”… Yes, they can’t hear the truth, they literally don’t know. And I hate to say it, while “unless you eat my flesh” should be the hardest saying of the faith… I think today, it is trumped by having to be basically obedient to the faith that is the hard saying. I find more people are willing to accept Chirst truely present in the eucharist at least in some sense (even if the understanding is heretical) than they are willing to accept that you can’t use ABC.

 

[1holycatholic]

It is interesting that Pope John Paul I mysteriously died after 33 days.

What does the death of Pope John Paul I have to do with Catholics who disobey the teaching of the Church regarding contraception?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I would somewhat agree, though perhaps I would be a little more charitable as I was once one of those very people you describe. Even when I was furthest from the Lord, I didn’t necessarly feel far from the Lord. I never rejected Christ and even continued defending Christianity despite the fact that my works would have you believe I was fully a secular humanist. I think you hit the nail on the head with “the noise prevents them from hearing”… Yes, they can’t hear the truth, they literally don’t know. And I hate to say it, while “unless you eat my flesh” should be the hardest saying of the faith… I think today, it is trumped by having to be basically obedient to the faith that is the hard saying. I find more people are willing to accept Chirst truely present in the eucharist at least in some sense (even if the understanding is heretical) than they are willing to accept that you can’t use ABC.

Me too, I spent 20 years in a state of mortal sin, objectively speaking. If I am fervent, it’s because I would like people (especially ones I care about) to avoid that separation. (

 

[1holycatholic]

And I hate to say it, while “unless you eat my flesh” should be the hardest saying of the faith… I think today, it is trumped by having to be basically obedient to the faith that is the hard saying. I find more people are willing to accept Chirst truely present in the eucharist at least in some sense (even if the understanding is heretical) than they are willing to accept that you can’t use ABC.

The rampant disbelief in the real presence is another thread.

 

[wanner47]

Serap, I started reading that article you posted but I stopped when I got to this point:

The rhythm method is what they call not having sex on certain days in a woman’s ovulation cycle. A woman isn’t fertile every day of the month. She is only fertile on maybe 3 to 4 of the days, based on her ovulation cycle. If a man simply does not have sex with her on those specific days, a baby should not result. The Rhythm Method once was banned, but is now considered by most to be a valid option. The church called this “Natural Family Planning”.

She is 100% incorrect on this point. The Rhythm Method is not NFP (that is, the terms are not interchangeable), it is a FORM of NFP, and the least reliable and least effective form. It only works for women who have perfect, clockwork, 28-day cycles their entire lives. (I have never known a woman like this, btw.)

I’m sorry, but her credibility is shot for me. First of all, the rhythm method was NEVER BANNED. See here. So there’s one big fact that she got wrong.

If she thinks that NFP is nothing more than the rhythm method, and if she thinks the two terms are synonymous, then she is not well-informed at all about Church teaching on spacing pregnancies or about NFP.

I encourage you to read this article instead. Janet Smith takes essentially the same data and talking points as Lisa Shea but comes to a vastly different conclusion:

catholiceducation.org/articles/sexuality/se0002.html

Also, again, I encourage you to read this blog post about how NFP and contraception are so diametrically opposed:

littlecatholicbubble.blogspot.com/2011/03/important-follow-up-to-natural-family.html

Also, anecdotally, I can tell you that our marriage is 100x better while using NFP than it ever was when we were contracepting. We communicate better, we are less selfish with one another, and our sex life has vastly improved too. So I do firmly believe that contraception hurts marriages. Why else would the divorce rate among NFP couples be drastically lower compared to that of contracepting couples? (And don’t say it’s because those using NFP are religious, because religious couples divorce at the same rate as the rest of the population.)

“The way to plan the family is Natural Family Planning, not contraception. In destroying the power of giving life, through contraception, a husband or wife is doing something to self. This turns the attention to self and so destroys the gift of love in him or her. In loving, the husband and wife must turn the attention to each other. Once that living love is destroyed by contraception, abortion follows very easily.”
~ Blessed Mother Teresa (in front of Bill and Hillary Clinton)

 

[Brendan]

But her facts are all correct, no? I know she has an “agenda”, but she still stuck to the facts in history.

It is interesting that Pope John Paul I mysteriously died after 33 days.

No, she was certainly wrong on Pope John Paul I.

When Pope Paul VI died in 1978, Pope John Paul I was elected. He said he was going to allow birth control and do a sweeping reform of the Vatican. He only lasted 33 days before dying in mysterious conditions.

There is zero evidence that he had planned either a ‘sweeping reform of the Vatican’ nor allow birth control

The primary book on his life * The Smiling Pope, The Life & Teaching of John Paul I*. Our Sunday Visitor Press, 2004, had this to say.

"…if some people think that his compassion and gentleness in this respect implies he was against Humane Vitae, one can only infer it was wishful thinking on their part and an attempt to find an ally in favour of artificial contraception

And as far as his death, it was from a heart attack. Nothing ‘mysterious’ about it. There are various conspiracy theories covering everything from Freemasons, to supposed Mafia links in the Vatican Bank,

If Ms Shea happens to link it to a potential change on birth control and a Mystery, then it would be one more example on how the Holy Spirit preserves the Church from error.