MSU professor William Penn pulled from classroom after attack on Republicans

[ishii]

Those school newspapers may be liberal or have liberal articles, but not all clubs are. I’m sure if you look, you will find conservative articles in college newspapers too. Are you wanting a “conservative” only school? You aren’t going to get it. You also aren’t going to get a “liberal” only school, even those heavily liberal schools will have conservative clubs. I’m perfectly fine with having a diverse campus. The whole world is diverse, better get used to it.

That’s the problem Kendra - there isn’t ideological diversity on campuses but liberal/left bias. The existence of a few token conservative campus groups doesn’t refute that. Why do you think that the school newspapers are so liberal? Do you think that maybe it reflects a liberal bias overall in academia ? Maybe?

Ishii

 

[ProVobis]

I think part of the problem is what do you mean by “bias in the classroom”. There are studies that show that college professors are much more likely to be liberal than conservative. Now, the question is, how does this translate into the classroom?

Of course, I’d expect more “liberals.” How many would sign into a Conservative Arts and Sciences program, for example? Seems like the “conservatives” would already be starting their own businesses instead of wasting their time with classes. Just saying.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

That’s the problem Kendra - there isn’t ideological diversity on campuses but liberal/left bias. The existence of a few token conservative campus groups doesn’t refute that. Why do you think that the school newspapers are so liberal? Do you think that maybe it reflects a liberal bias overall in academia ? Maybe?

Ishii

They maybe be “token” on heavily liberal campuses, but they aren’t just “token” on ALL campuses. And some clubs don’t care how you vote. I randomly joined the Astronomy club one semester and they didn’t ask how I voted, at all. I know, darn those personal experiences. I think my sorority just assumed that I was a Republican. Most people who Go Greek usually are Republican, especially in the South and if they aren’t they usually convert after their peers pick on them.
I was honestly too busy with the clubs I was in and my studies to be concerned with what was going on outside of my little world. Figuring out what to wear on game day was more important than being concerned with what the hipsters and hippies were up too. I know more personal experiences, but out of everyone I knew in college no one was concerned with things outside of their little world either. It is the outsiders who usually freak out about every little thing others are doing and worried that professors that you see for a few hours each semester are turning you into Socialist.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

insidehighered.com/news/2011/06/10/new_study_on_why_some_students_perceive_political_bias_in_classrooms

This study states that if you are either far left or far right you will perceive political bias that isn’t there. Go figure.

 

[SMGS127]

That’s the problem Kendra - there isn’t ideological diversity on campuses but liberal/left bias. The existence of a few token conservative campus groups doesn’t refute that. Why do you think that the school newspapers are so liberal? Do you think that maybe it reflects a liberal bias overall in academia ? Maybe?

Ishii

That’s not what Kendra said at all. What Kendra said was that you can pick out a liberal opinion piece out of almost any newspaper. Heck, the New York Times allows extremely far-right-wing conservatives to do opinion pieces too; they’re just not anywhere near a majority of the newspaper. But there are both right-wing and left-wing pieces at most schools; based on where you go, you’re going to have a louder voice one way or another. If your daughter goes to Alabama, don’t come crying to me if she gets taught conservative teachings and has to be surrounded by conservative people. If she goes to Smith, don’t come crying to me if she gets taught radical feminist ideals and is surrounded by extremely liberal people.

Certain schools are of course imbalanced left…just as certain schools are of course imbalanced right.

There isn’t a conservative bias in the us media. Unless you view NY Times, Wash Post LA times , ABC. NBC. CBS, etc as conservative. ( which they’re not - unless you’re coming from a perspective of the far left where anything not far left is viewed as “conservative”.

Ishii

Except those aren’t mainstream media anymore. The most watched and listened-to media now is conservative media. Therefore, conservative media is, by definition, the “mainstream” media. You also conveniently forget about HUGE conservative newspapers like the Wall Street Journal, the Dallas Morning News, and the New York Post, especially at a time when many liberal newspapers are going out of business. You aren’t being kidnapped and forced to read the New York Times, you know.

This discussion doesn’t even mention that there are probably at least as many right-wing news websites (Daily Caller, Politico, Drudge Report, FOXNews.com, Redstate, Breitbart.com) as there are left-wing (PoliticalWire, AssociatedPress, MSN.com, Huffington Post).

You only see bias because you want to see bias. The “mainstream media” does not persecute Republicans at all. Minority liberal media sources might, but certainly not the mainstream media. Also, no one is indoctrinated by the media, right-wing or left-wing, unless they choose to be.

 

[Mickey_Finn]

Critical thinking of liberals would note that it hasn’t worked well in the real world, because “True Socialism” has just not been tried yet.
Hope springs eternal in the hearts of those who see no need to connect their fantasy theories to reality.

Maybe you have a link that explains your definition of reality. Because my definition of reality is not dependent on political parties, or monetary systems of any sort. Humans throughout the ages have gotten along no matter what their situation. Adaptability being one of the greatest gifts God imparted to us. So it’s kind of unrealistic to think we couldn’t devise a system that is fair, and stable. It almost appears as though conservatives use terms like reality to close in the discussion, and give their views a chance at survival. Sort of a like when a fighter ties up his opponent because he’s getting clobbered, and needs a chance to recover. When someone mentions something they don’t like they claim it’s not realistic. Which appears to mean that it makes their opinion/view look ridiculous.
ATB

 

[Julian_Bashir]

That’s not what Kendra said at all. What Kendra said was that you can pick out a liberal opinion piece out of almost any newspaper. Heck, the New York Times allows extremely far-right-wing conservatives to do opinion pieces too; they’re just not anywhere near a majority of the newspaper. But there are both right-wing and left-wing pieces at most schools; based on where you go, you’re going to have a louder voice one way or another. If your daughter goes to Alabama, don’t come crying to me if she gets taught conservative teachings and has to be surrounded by conservative people. If she goes to Smith, don’t come crying to me if she gets taught radical feminist ideals and is surrounded by extremely liberal people.

Certain schools are of course imbalanced left…just as certain schools are of course imbalanced right.

Except those aren’t mainstream media anymore. The most watched and listened-to media now is conservative media. Therefore, conservative media is, by definition, the “mainstream” media. You also conveniently forget about HUGE conservative newspapers like the Wall Street Journal, the Dallas Morning News, and the New York Post, especially at a time when many liberal newspapers are going out of business. You aren’t being kidnapped and forced to read the New York Times, you know.

This discussion doesn’t even mention that there are probably at least as many right-wing news websites (Daily Caller, Politico, Drudge Report, FOXNews.com, Redstate, Breitbart.com) as there are left-wing (PoliticalWire, AssociatedPress, MSN.com, Huffington Post).

You only see bias because you want to see bias. The “mainstream media” does not persecute Republicans at all. Minority liberal media sources might, but certainly not the mainstream media. Also, no one is indoctrinated by the media, right-wing or left-wing, unless they choose to be.

You and Kendra keep saying media and academia are diverse, as though there is even close to an equal split in the ideologies. Aside from voter registration among journalists and statistics that bear out the dominance of left wing ideologies, even the majority of liberals on here would disagree with you. Again, it is like claiming the military has a diverse voter base, one that votes about 70% for the Republican. I don’t have trouble admitting that as a conservative.

There isn’t any more to be said other than there are very few people who would agree with your position.

 

[ishii]

They maybe be “token” on heavily liberal campuses, but they aren’t just “token” on ALL campuses. And some clubs don’t care how you vote. I randomly joined the Astronomy club one semester and they didn’t ask how I voted, at all. I know, darn those personal experiences. I think my sorority just assumed that I was a Republican. Most people who Go Greek usually are Republican, especially in the South and if they aren’t they usually convert after their peers pick on them.
I was honestly too busy with the clubs I was in and my studies to be concerned with what was going on outside of my little world. Figuring out what to wear on game day was more important than being concerned with what the hipsters and hippies were up too. I know more personal experiences, but out of everyone I knew in college no one was concerned with things outside of their little world either. It is the outsiders who usually freak out about every little thing others are doing and worried that professors that you see for a few hours each semester are turning you into Socialist.

Again, you seem to be confusing the issue. When we speak of a liberal/left bias in academia, we’re talking about the classroom primarily - and in particular the liberal arts/humanities. I don’t think anyone is claiming that the math and science departments are necessarily leftist indoctrination centers - that is not what is meant by left/liberal bias. What is meant is, in disciplines where political opinion naturally enters the discussion: history, political science (certainly), English, philosophy, etc. there is a very one-sided left/liberal bias. Just because the left/liberal bias is not seen in all areas of the university such as the Greek system, etc. doesn’t mean there isn’t a liberal/left bias. And just because some students aren’t influenced by the bias, - as you claim in your experiences - doesn’t mean there isn’t a bias, and that liberal/left professors don’t attempt to influence and shape their students’ views. Lastly, it might be the case that some universities in the south, e.g. might not be as liberal as others, it still does not mean that generally speaking, there is a liberal/left bias on college campuses across America.

Ishii

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Again, you seem to be confusing the issue. When we speak of a liberal/left bias in academia, we’re talking about the classroom primarily - and in particular the liberal arts/humanities. I don’t think anyone is claiming that the math and science departments are necessarily leftist indoctrination centers - that is not what is meant by left/liberal bias. What is meant is, in disciplines where political opinion naturally enters the discussion: history, political science (certainly), English, philosophy, etc. there is a very one-sided left/liberal bias. Just because the left/liberal bias is not seen in all areas of the university such as the Greek system, etc. doesn’t mean there isn’t a liberal/left bias. And just because some students aren’t influenced by the bias, - as you claim in your experiences - doesn’t mean there isn’t a bias, and that liberal/left professors don’t attempt to influence and shape their students’ views. Lastly, it might be the case that some universities in the south, e.g. might not be as liberal as others, it still does not mean that generally speaking, there is a liberal/left bias on college campuses across America.

Ishii

I guess you didn’t read the study that I posted that stated that **far right and far left **students perceive a bias that isn’tactually there. The students who felt that there was a bias were interviewed and no evidence of REAL bias was found.

Linvill said that his ideas come from the realization, when interviewing students who thought they experienced bias, that their feelings were very real but that their evidence was of “insensitive teaching, not politically biased teaching.”

Since I don’t have extreme views, I don’t FEEL as bias. It is only those with extreme views on either side that feel like there is a bias, that ISN’T there.

 

[ishii]

That’s not what Kendra said at all. What Kendra said was that you can pick out a liberal opinion piece out of almost any newspaper. Heck, the New York Times allows extremely far-right-wing conservatives to do opinion pieces too; they’re just not anywhere near a majority of the newspaper. But there are both right-wing and left-wing pieces at most schools; based on where you go, you’re going to have a louder voice one way or another. If your daughter goes to Alabama, don’t come crying to me if she gets taught conservative teachings and has to be surrounded by conservative people. If she goes to Smith, don’t come crying to me if she gets taught radical feminist ideals and is surrounded by extremely liberal people.

Certain schools are of course imbalanced left…just as certain schools are of course imbalanced right.

The school papers I looked up had either innocuous articles or liberal/left articles - including quite a few of your “very conservative” schools’ newspapers. If you still maintain that the newspapers are ideologically diverse, then perhaps you’d make a better case if you actually provided examples instead of continually repeating yourself and your unsubstantiated claims. In my experience, the larger universities have on main newspaper and perhaps other, smaller and less read newspapers. The ones I focused on were the main ones - and they were generally liberal/left. Your keep parroting this false idea of ideological fairness and equality but its just not there - and every time a study is brought up or concrete examples, you answer with anecdotes or your mantra: " some schools are right, some are left. there is no left/liberal bias."

Except those aren’t mainstream media anymore. The most watched and listened-to media now is conservative media. Therefore, conservative media is, by definition, the “mainstream” media. You also conveniently forget about HUGE conservative newspapers like the Wall Street Journal, the Dallas Morning News, and the New York Post, especially at a time when many liberal newspapers are going out of business. You aren’t being kidnapped and forced to read the New York Times, you know.

I agree that Fox news is probably the most watched cable network. But I’m not sure that the Dallas morning news and NY posts quite rises to the level of readership and influence as the NY times, LA Times, Washington Post - as well as all the other liberal big city newspapers across the country! That’s the problem with your reasoning: there might be 40 liberal newspapers and 5 “conservative” ones - and you think that is balance.

This discussion doesn’t even mention that there are probably at least as many right-wing news websites (Daily Caller, Politico, Drudge Report, FOXNews.com, Redstate, Breitbart.com) as there are left-wing (PoliticalWire, AssociatedPress, MSN.com, Huffington Post).

This discussion is about academia and its liberal/left bias. I agree that conservatives have done a good job of competing with liberal outlets on the web - and that is a good thing.

You only see bias because you want to see bias. The “mainstream media” does not persecute Republicans at all. Minority liberal media sources might, but certainly not the mainstream media. Also, no one is indoctrinated by the media, right-wing or left-wing, unless they choose to be.

I can say the same about you: “you don’t see the liberal bias because you don’t want to.” And I think that its pretty obvious.

Ishii

 

[Elostirion]

How does one measure bias anyhow? Wouldn’t that mean that the measurer claims to have zero bias? How do they know they don’t have bias? Who determines that?
It’s perfectly possible the measurer(s) have a bias, claim to be even, and declare there to be no bias. Though, I’ve always hated this right/left scale, who determines what is “right” and “left” and how do they do it? (Before one says common consensus, you will need to define that too).

Point is, it’s far more difficult to talk about bias than it first seems.

 

[ishii]

I guess you didn’t read the study that I posted that stated that **far right and far left **students perceive a bias that isn’tactually there. The students who felt that there was a bias were interviewed and no evidence of REAL bias was found.

Linvill said that his ideas come from the realization, when interviewing students who thought they experienced bias, that their feelings were very real but that their evidence was of “insensitive teaching, not politically biased teaching.”

Since I don’t have extreme views, I don’t FEEL as bias. It is only those with extreme views on either side that feel like there is a bias, that ISN’T there.

LOL. Its about*** feelings***. I don’t feel there is a bias, so there isn’t one! Wow. Folks, that is the essence of liberal thinking. There might be overwhelmingly left/liberal teachers who present only one point of view in the classroom. But there is no bias - because we don’t ***feel ***there is a bias. In looking at the “study”, the focus seemed to be that the liberal/left teachers don’t grade conservative students differently than everyone else - therefore, there is no bias! If you’re a conservative student and you have a teacher like this William Penn, are you going to challenge him, or are you going to keep quiet and not rock the boat out of a feeling that the teacher just might treat you differently if you’re a conservative. With teachers like William Penn, it would be easy to understand why a conservative student might think they’d be graded differently by the teacher.

Ishii

 

[KendraDZ1902]

LOL. Its about*** feelings***. I don’t feel there is a bias, so there isn’t one! Wow. Folks, that is the essence of liberal thinking. There might be overwhelmingly left/liberal teachers who present only one point of view in the classroom. But there is no bias - because we don’t ***feel ***there is a bias. In looking at the “study”, the focus seemed to be that the liberal/left teachers don’t grade conservative students differently than everyone else - therefore, there is no bias! If you’re a conservative student and you have a teacher like this William Penn, are you going to challenge him, or are you going to keep quiet and not rock the boat out of a feeling that the teacher just might treat you differently if you’re a conservative. With teachers like William Penn, it would be easy to understand why a conservative student might think they’d be graded differently by the teacher.

Ishii

It wasn’t only conservative students who took part in this study. So you can stop with the whole “Folks, that’s the essence of liberal thinking” mess. Thanks. Extremes of BOTH SIDES thought that their professors were biased, when they were not biased. There are very few William Penns. He is definitely not the norm or even close to being the norm. I wouldn’t challenge in the sense of being rude or disrespecting him, because I’m not that type of person. If I was called on I would stand up for what I believe in. I’m not scared of a professor or a bad grade. If I am failed, I would just take the class again and he wouldn’t be the professor.

You have to have proof that a teacher is biased, not just “my teacher doesn’t have the same views as I do.” That is like someone saying, “that person is a racist because they don’t hold the same view.”

 

[ishii]

It wasn’t only conservative students who took part in this study. So you can stop with the whole “Folks, that’s the essence of liberal thinking” mess. Thanks. Extremes of BOTH SIDES thought that their professors were biased, when they were not biased.

The study was based on “feelings” - i.e. the esssence of liberal thinking. And in the study, biased was defined as teachers grading students differently because those student held ideologies different from the teachers and voiced there opinions. As I’ve explained, and as you seem to continually not understand, academia has overwhelmingly more left/liberal teachers in the social sciences than conservative ones. And they do not present both sides in the classroom.

There are very few William Penns. He is definitely not the norm or even close to being the norm.

How do you know that? What do you base that on? (remember - mere anecdotes are not very convincing).

I wouldn’t challenge in the sense of being rude or disrespecting him, because I’m not that type of person. If I was called on I would stand up for what I believe in. I’m not scared of a professor or a bad grade. If I am failed, I would just take the class again and he wouldn’t be the professor.

Good for you! - you are not intimidated by a left-wing professor. Some students probably are.

You have to have proof that a teacher is biased, not just “my teacher doesn’t have the same views as I do.” That is like someone saying, “that person is a racist because they don’t hold the same view.”

And in countering the points made by those of us who maintain there is a left/liberal bias in academia, you need to do more than repeat a mantra: “there is no media bias because I don’t think there is.”

Ishii

 

[Darryl1958]

How does one measure bias anyhow? Wouldn’t that mean that the measurer claims to have zero bias? How do they know they don’t have bias? Who determines that?
It’s perfectly possible the measurer(s) have a bias, claim to be even, and declare there to be no bias. Though, I’ve always hated this right/left scale, who determines what is “right” and “left” and how do they do it? (Before one says common consensus, you will need to define that too).

Point is, it’s far more difficult to talk about bias than it first seems.

Bias is by and large not a conscious decision. To the extent that it is a conscious decision, it would not be described as bias anymore, but as bigotry or prejudice.

 

[Darryl1958]

Maybe you have a link that explains your definition of reality.

Sure.

re·al·i·ty
/rēˈalətē/
Noun
The world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them: “he refuses to face reality”.
A thing that is actually experienced or seen, esp. when this is grim or problematic: “the harsh realities of life”.
Synonyms
actuality - fact - truth - verity

Hope that helps.

 

[JRJOHNSON]

This MSU Professor is a joke and should be fired. Tenure is a bad idea. Incidentally, Republican and Democrat is a bad idea. But the ideas this Professor has is contradictory. He lectured about American Indians this and that but if it wasn’t for the Republicans he condemns, he would likely not have the professor job. Had things gone on the American Indian way, we wouldn’t have most of the advances that we have today, so it benefitted Native Americans as well. What the Professor ignores is that Native Americans were primitive, killed and scalped eachother, many ran around naked. Native Americans have more suicides, drugs and not the life this professor thinks is good.

 

[SMGS127]

This MSU Professor is a joke and should be fired. Tenure is a bad idea. Incidentally, Republican and Democrat is a bad idea. But the ideas this Professor has is contradictory. He lectured about American Indians this and that but if it wasn’t for the Republicans he condemns, he would likely not have the professor job. Had things gone on the American Indian way, we wouldn’t have most of the advances that we have today, so it benefitted Native Americans as well. What the Professor ignores is that Native Americans were primitive, killed and scalped eachother, many ran around naked. Native Americans have more suicides, drugs and not the life this professor thinks is good.

Not making any comment on most of your post, but you do realize that the high suicide rate, drug rate, etc. is because the vast majority of Native Americans were forced onto very small reservations and, as a result, are extremely poor to this day? The “rich casino” meme only applies to an extremely small percentage of Native Americans. Native Americans are, by a mile, the most vulnerable racial group in the United States.

 

[robwar]

I AM a young person. I’m only 24. I was on a college campus in 2008. Were there people happy that Obama won? Well, duh. There were also people who weren’t happy about it. I remember the day after the election a guy showed up to my history class late. The professor locks the door when class starts and this guy was banging on the door. She opened it and said that class had already started and he was interrupting. The guy said," well my president is black. I don’t need this class." The professor informed him that Obama was everyone’s president and that didn’t mean that her attendance policies had changed.

Do people change their minds? Yes. I know people who went from Democrat to Republican and I know people who went from Republican to Democrat. That doesn’t mean that the professors are twisting people’s arms. It usually has to do with who you are hanging out with, not some teacher you see a few hours a week.
My husband thought he was a liberal until he started having his political science classes. I was a registered Republican my senior year in high school and that hasn’t changed. That doesn’t mean that I think that liberal professors are out to brainwash their students. That’s just ridiculous.

Sorry but 24 is still pretty young in my book and to be an authority on all of this because in a limited amount of time in 24 years, I’m sorry but you have still a lot to learn. Liberal biases at the university level has been an ongoing complaint not just in 24 years but much long than that and has been well documented not just at the undergrad level but at the graduate level where promoting the liberal party line becomes even more critical and includes even what professors get tenure. Sigh, kids these days.

 

[SMGS127]

Sorry but 24 is still pretty young in my book and to be an authority on all of this because in a limited amount of time in 24 years, I’m sorry but you have still a lot to learn. Liberal biases at the university level has been an ongoing complaint not just in 24 years but much long than that and has been well documented not just at the undergrad level but at the graduate level where promoting the liberal party line becomes even more critical and includes even what professors get tenure. Sigh, kids these days.

So you’re arguing that someone who’s college-aged and who experiences a university environment on a daily basis is less knowledgable on what happens at a university than a 50+ year-old (not you) who hasn’t seen the campus of a university in 30 years, just because one is older? Because that makes sense .

Edit: also, if it’s “well-documented,” how come no one here has been able to show evidence of it being widespread? I have 3 newspaper articles (2 from the Pacific NW), a study of the 32 most-liberal private schools in New England and the Pacific NW, and a study that refuses to detail which schools they studied. Surely there could be better evidence gathered than this if it was, in any way, “well-documented.”

What’s more likely is that Kendra and I are right, as people who have experienced many different college campuses each in the last 5 years due to our age. We also have a wide plethora of friends at various colleges (including a HUGE quantity of Southern friends in my case), and I guarantee you that many of those Southern schools are extremely conservative, especially in their political science departments.