Muslim fury grows at Pope's speech

[gilliam]

The Pope included in his lecture a document from the 1400’s, which describes Islam as inhumane. That’s what incendiary, regardless of whether you think it should be or not.

People can be killed and it looks as though a nun has, because of his words.

His careless use of words, doesn’t excuse Islamic violence, but the Pope himself is expressing regret over the situation. My guess is if he had to do it over, he would not have included that part of his lecture.

What? Did you actually read the lecture?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

while there has been general disagreement with the popes words coming from scholars and politicians in the middle east, ive noticed the actual street protests and violence has been limited to the pakistan/india border area and the west bank (and a few rallys in turkey i believe) Yet there has been nothing of the sort in israel, iran, saudi arabia, syria, lebanon, UAE, kuwait (i havent heard anything on iraq… they probably havent even gotten news of it with no electricity around) so clearly this poses an interesting question… why just these certain areas are reacting with tempers yet the rest of the muslim world is acting with restraint and calm? i’ll throw in a quick theory here… it may not so much be the popes words but more so the fact that people in these regions are using this as an excuse to vent anger. lets not forget that hindu dominated india and muslim dominated pakistan have been fighting bitterly over the kashmir region for some time. Also the palestinians have been struggling against the israelis. any thoughts on this?

The protest seem to be confined to the Sunni areas of the Islamic world and not in the Shia areas.

Sunnis are a puritanical version of Islam in that they follow the letter of the law. Thhe Shia, on the other hand, are more on the spiritual side of Islam and generally follow the spirit of the law.

 

[gilliam]

The protest seem to be confined to the Sunni areas of the Islamic world and not in the Shia areas.

Sunnis are a puritanical version of Islam in that they follow the letter of the law. Thhe Shia, on the other hand, are more on the spiritual side of Islam and generally follow the spirit of the law.

Nope, you are incorrect:

remarksIran seminaries shut in protest at pope
Middle East Times, Egypt
… schools to shut had come from Qom’s Grand Ayatollahs, the highest-ranking of all Shiite clerics. In a speech in his native Germany Tuesday, the pope spoke of a …

Hundreds of Iranians also demonstrated against the pope in cities across Iran. In Qom, the religious capital of Iran’s 70 million Shiite Muslims, hardline cleric Ahmad Khatami said the pope and Bush were “united in order to repeat the Crusades.”

However, it is not to be expected that all Muslim clerics would be satisfied, such as Lebanese Shiite community leader Great Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, who called for a ‘personal apology’ from the pope.

 

[Eden]

What? Did you actually read the lecture?

Yes, I’d like to know the answer to that as well. JimR-OCDS, did you read the actual speech in its entirety or is your only source of information on this CNN?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

What? Did you actually read the lecture?

Yes I did, apparently you have not, otherwise you would not be reacting to what I said as such.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Nope, you are incorrect:

Iran seminaries shut in protest at pope remarks
Middle East Times, Egypt
… schools to shut had come from Qom’s Grand Ayatollahs, the highest-ranking of all Shiite clerics. In a speech in his native Germany Tuesday, the pope spoke of a …

Hundreds of Iranians also demonstrated against the pope in cities across Iran. In Qom, the religious capital of Iran’s 70 million Shiite Muslims, hardline cleric Ahmad Khatami said the pope and Bush were “united in order to repeat the Crusades.”

However, it is not to be expected that all Muslim clerics would be satisfied, such as Lebanese Shiite community leader Great Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, who called for a ‘personal apology’ from the pope.

This is the first I’ve read on protest in Iran. However, the current leadership in Iran is not true Shia, but have incoporated in to Shiism puritanical ridgeness. Most Iranians disapprove of the Iranian theocratic government. In fact, they hate it so much, many say Iran is prime for a revolution.

 

[gilliam]

Yes I did, apparently you have not, otherwise you would not be reacting to what I said as such.

I have read it in full about five times so far and I can’t see where taking a sentence out of context can be considered an insult. If he had said he agreed with the words and wanted to know why Muslims are so full of violence, that would be something else again… but he didn’t say that. What he said was what someone else said about Islam while that someone was watching his Christian Byzantine world taken put to the sword and forced to convert to Islam.

What the Pope did say was that you can’t justify converting people to your religion with violence. You do agree with that, don’t you? It would appear, not that surprisingly, that a lot of Muslims do not.

 

[gilliam]

This is the first I’ve read on protest in Iran. However, the current leadership in Iran is not true Shia, but have incoporated in to Shiism puritanical ridgeness. Most Iranians disapprove of the Iranian theocratic government. In fact, they hate it so much, many say Iran is prime for a revolution.

However, it is not to be expected that all Muslim clerics would be satisfied, such as Lebanese Shiite community leader Great Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, who called for a ‘personal apology’ from the pope.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I have read it in full about five times so far and I can’t see where taking a sentence out of context can be considered an insult. If he had said he agreed with the words and wanted to know why Muslims are so full of violence, that would be something else again… but he didn’t say that. What he said was what someone else said about Islam while that someone was watching his Christian Byzantine world taken put to the sword and forced to convert to Islam.

What the Pope did say was that you can’t justify converting people to your religion with violence. You do agree with that, don’t you? It would appear, not that surprisingly, that a lot of Muslims do not.

This is the part of the speech which was taken out of context, by the media and by those who reacted to it.

“Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

The reaction in the Muslim world isn’t justified, but it could’ve been predected by the Pope, and he probably should not have included it in his lecture.

 

[stellina]

In fact, Islamic terrorists had worked out a plan to attack the Vatican, I believe it was in the 90s, and later abandoned the idea. (This was during the time of Pope John II). We all need to pray for the Pope’s safety. He’s proven he’s a courageous leader as well as the right man at the right time.

There were drawings of planes crashing into St. Peter’s found in some of the al-Qaeda caves. They’ve been itching to attack the seat of Christianity for a thousand years and this isn’t any different. Believe me, the Vatican has been one of the most closely guarded places on earth since the attempt on John Paul’s life and then Sept. 11 (if you’ve been there lately you can tell), so I am moderately confident in the Holy Father’s safety. However, I think he should stay away from Turkey.

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle!

 

[gilliam]

There were drawings of planes crashing into St. Peter’s found in some of the al-Qaeda caves. They’ve been itching to attack the seat of Christianity for a thousand years and this isn’t any different. Believe me, the Vatican has been one of the most closely guarded places on earth since the attempt on John Paul’s life and then Sept. 11 (if you’ve been there lately you can tell), so I am moderately confident in the Holy Father’s safety. However, I think he should stay away from Turkey.

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle!

Let’s pray they don’t plan on crashing planes into the Vatican.

 

[thechrismyster]

How many people in the USA have the makings of an effigy of a Muslim leader or his picture at the ready to burn?

we have jobs, who has time to burn effigies when were to busy trying to have a productive society…

everytime i see them burning something in the name of the jihad du jour, i wonder why aren’t they working?

we need to destroy the islamic states the way we do best, import wholesale capitalism… marlboros, budweiser, mcdonalds, levi jeans… get then sedated on western style spending and bring their culure in line with a western type capitalistic system… divide and conquer from within.
that is how we killed the USSR and eastern Germany… we let them taste the sweetness of collective excess, greed and consumerism.
may not be exactly the Catholic approach. but if we start with the students and the young… we could turn the middle east in 2 generations.

 

[stellina]

Let’s pray they don’t plan on crashing planes into the Vatican.

Indeed, but my point is that they have probably been plotting it long before this happened. I’m not saying that they will have the opportunity, given the fact that lesser plots have been foiled, e.g. the London airline plot, thanks to the extreme vigilance that has become standard operating procedure since 9/11. However, you are absolutely right that we need to pray and pray for the Holy Father and for the defeat of this evil.

 

[Jennie66]

Also, God did not chose Benedict as Pope, he left that up to the free will of the Cardinals.

Okay, this is really getting ridiculous. I suppose all of the prayers offered up to God prior to the conclave for His wisdom and guidance in selecting the next pontiff were just formalities? God just didn’t answer that prayer and sent us Pope Benedict instead? I think NOT! If you want to live by oppeasing international bullies, go ahead. Maybe the Second Person of the Holy Trinity should have used more “wisdom” too, and waited for a more opportune, less offensive time to come to Earth, because after all, His comments certainly evoked more than a little ire, did they not? By most people’s standards, Jesus’s Gospel was completely revolutionary. Perhaps God just has bad timing altogether, Jim. And those silly first century Christian martyrs, if only they had had more “wisdom” and kept their mouths shut until a more opportune, less ofensive time (or maybe just for show bowed down to Caeser, you know, just so they “wouldn’t offend”) the Roman Emperor wouldn’t have blamed them for the burning of Rome, hence they would never have ended up in the colliseum being eaten by lions. Please, get a good, solid history text and read up on Islam, its founding and how it was spread, swallowing countries that for centuries had been Christian. Maybe then you will understand why Pope Benedict broached the topic as he did, and then again, maybe you won’t.

 

[April-Lisa_N]

does anyone know where i can get the full speech, that was read by the Pope. i need to read it, oh and there is another thing, Islam, as promised to Ishmael the son of Abraham from Hagar, will become a great “nation” or something like that, but will have a lot of enemies, so we need to be a little more understanding to them and pray for them to understand us too. after all we are all children of God

 

[estesbob]

The Pope included in his lecture a document from the 1400’s, which describes Islam as inhumane. That’s what incendiary, regardless of whether you think it should be or not.

People can be killed and it looks as though a nun has, because of his words.

His careless use of words, doesn’t excuse Islamic violence, but the Pope himself is expressing regret over the situation. My guess is if he had to do it over, he would not have included that part of his lecture.

He said nothing of the sort. Have you read the speech?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Okay, this is really getting ridiculous. I suppose all of the prayers offered up to God prior to the conclave for His wisdom and guidance in selecting the next pontiff were just formalities? God just didn’t answer that prayer and sent us Pope Benedict instead?

By this logic, God took away the free will of the Cardinals and forced them to chose Ratzinger as Pope.

If you want to live by oppeasing international bullies, go ahead.

Where do I say anything to appease international bullies?

The rest of your post, you’ve gone off on a tangent and doesn’t make any sense in relation to the topic of this thread.

 

[estesbob]

Right, in these forums, it’s difficult to tell what a person is actually saying, so why not just read what I said? I was commenting on the Pope’s wisdom, in using such words in his lecture, and yes, I have read it in it’s context. It still doesn’t change the fact that he should know, that refering to a document from the 1400’s which describes Islam as inhumane, would set off a firestorm in the Muslim world.

Also, God did not chose Benedict as Pope, he left that up to the free will of the Cardinals. They could have chosen a incompentent Pope, as there have been such Pope’s in the past.

BTW, a nun was killed yesterday in Somalia, probably over the Pope’s words.

As I said before, as leader of the Catholic Church, his words have impact on Catholics world wide, including those living in hostile places. He has to be careful.

Peace
Jim

If God left the election of the Pope up to the free will of the Cardinals then Apostolic sucession is a farce and our Religion is a sham.

 

[Jennie66]

Islam, as promised to Ishmael the son of Abraham from Hagar, will become a great “nation” or something like that, but will have a lot of enemies, so we need to be a little more understanding to them and pray for them to understand us too. after all we are all children of God

April,

“Islam” was NOT promised by God to Ishmael, son of Hagar by Abraham. Check the Scripture on that, please. God did promise that Ishmael would be a great nation, but Islam itself was NOT mentioned in that text. And, by the way, Ishmael was NOT viewed as the the “son of the promise” - that was reserved for Isaac, the son of Abraham through his wife, Sarah.

 

[Jennie66]

By this logic, God took away the free will of the Cardinals and forced them to chose Ratzinger as Pope.

I really have to ask this - are you really a Catholic Christian, or one just pretending to be for the sake of offering up such a ridiculous argument?