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mosher
Guest
You are mixing up the definitiion of Natural Law as empirical science and the laws of “science” with Natural Moral Law.
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YinYangMom
Guest
Island Oak:
The Church is educating homosexuals about their not being ‘born’ that way. They offer their services to help them delve into and face the issues which lead them to believe SSA is all they can ever know. They offer reconciliation for past sexual encounters (the same as they do for heterosexuals engaging in sex outside of marriage). They offer the grace of Christ through the Eucharist to further help them in their journey to Him. They offer them roles in the church community of service so they can recognize and appreciate their worth to their neighbors.
For some people, they see these efforts as repressing, denying homosexuals of experiencing ‘love’. The Church is trying to keep these people from doing something unnatural which they will regret later in life and which will remove them from the grace of God. No matter how much emotion, sincerity, ‘love’ you put behind the physical union of same-sex partners, at the most basic level it is still disordered. The human anatomy was not designed to be used in that manner. Period.
And that’s what the church** is** doing by calling homosexuals to a celibate life so they can fully participate in the sacraments.
The Church is educating homosexuals about their not being ‘born’ that way. They offer their services to help them delve into and face the issues which lead them to believe SSA is all they can ever know. They offer reconciliation for past sexual encounters (the same as they do for heterosexuals engaging in sex outside of marriage). They offer the grace of Christ through the Eucharist to further help them in their journey to Him. They offer them roles in the church community of service so they can recognize and appreciate their worth to their neighbors.
For some people, they see these efforts as repressing, denying homosexuals of experiencing ‘love’. The Church is trying to keep these people from doing something unnatural which they will regret later in life and which will remove them from the grace of God. No matter how much emotion, sincerity, ‘love’ you put behind the physical union of same-sex partners, at the most basic level it is still disordered. The human anatomy was not designed to be used in that manner. Period.
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LCMS_No_More
Guest
I disagree. While the Church’s statement in the Catechism is hopeful and humanizing, merely saying that a person is called to chastity doesn’t necessariy help them deal with the underlying root causes of SSA. If you want to get to the root causes, you have to do a LOT of investigation on your own and then try to work through those issues alone. The Courage Apostolate is helpful in realizing that one isn’t alone in being same-sex attracted and trying to live a chaste life while at the same time having a degree of same-sex attractions, yet it is not set up to help a person work through the serious issues that caused the condition in the first place. I would love to see an approved ministry of the Church that does just that.
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YinYangMom
Guest
Well I guess I consider the Church’s statement in the Catechism, along with encyclicals and other literature issued for those of us in the trenches as education. But I see your point, in that it isn’t enough.
I agree with you completely that it would be wonderful to follow up said writings with an agency staffed with Catholic psychologists and other support professions, but in the meantime, it’s pretty much up to us front-line Catholics to carry out the teaching and to provide the services. At least we have proper direction from the Church.
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cynic
Guest
I just read this from a post of yours. You are welcome to your impersonal views with regards to marriage and love. One person (of the same faith) is pretty much as good as the next then, since love is an expression directly made to God, not another. Personal attachments are to be avoided. Intimacy only with our creator. The other person a means to this. Would you say this to your husand or wife? “I love you only becuase I ought to, with no affection for you individually” .
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Edwin1961
Guest
If the desire to ‘have’ a marriage, will they then support for alimony?
It is known that homosexual relationships do not last too long. When I was with a guy, it lasted 14 years, but after 7 it was apparent that we were both searching ‘more something more.’ i.e. the relationship was not satisfying…(i’m trying to keep it clean here).
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felra
Guest
Island Oak:
You whole emotional plea against the Church rests on the Church refusing to offer nothing but the truth to those afflicted and struggling with SSA. Yours is a distorted and superficial emotional reasoning–"Identify for me even one acceptable sexual outlet a faithful adult homosexual is EVER permitted?" This all but a taunt and a tease to those afflicted with SSA and who are taking up their cross daily and following Jesus faithfully.
Thank goodness that the Church does not offer the teasing form of empathy that you offer. Amazing how folks employ a distorted sense of empathy to falsely accuse the Church of lacking in compassion. The true compassion that the Church extends speaks to the core of the person and rests on a true understanding and appreciation of dignity of the person and the suffering that is the result of living in a fallen world and personal sin choices.
You need to get it right and quit pointing the finger outward at the Church.
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Island_Oak
Guest
You whole emotional plea against the Church rests on the Church refusing to offer nothing but the truth to those afflicted and struggling with SSA. Yours is a distorted and superficial emotional reasoning…
You have utterly misread, misunderstood and twisted my words to conform it to your paradigm. Unfortunate and unintended as I will charitably assume it was, it nevertheless exemplifies an underlying and insidious antagonism that many within and outside the Church perceive as pervasive and directed towards those who struggle with SSA.
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felra
Guest
Island Oak:
What? Not taking ownership for your posts when confronted with distortion? First the Church, now you are pointing the finger at me … :nope:
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Island_Oak
Guest
I would be delighted to have the opportunity clarify any “distortion” I have allegedly created. You are responsible for cleaning up your own messes.
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YinYangMom
Guest
Island Oak:
I can certainly understand, based upon many Christian’s reactions to people with SSA, one getting the impression that their uncharitableness toward them is directed by the Church to which they claim allegiance.
But Island Oak, people are people. The Church’s official position and teaching with regard to people of SSA is **not **insidious antagonism directed toward them. It is one of love, empathy, compassion, caring.
Granted, we, on the front-line, have a lot of growing up to do to come to embrace that teaching. You can tell from the forums here what a struggle it is when socially we’ve been trained over the centuries to despise and reject those people. Thank goodness the Church has remained steadfast in preserving the Truth - Christ’s Truth - that those with SSA deserve our love and compassion and that we are called to help them remain in the grace of God.
This is a rather interesting statement…
I can certainly understand, based upon many Christian’s reactions to people with SSA, one getting the impression that their uncharitableness toward them is directed by the Church to which they claim allegiance.
But Island Oak, people are people. The Church’s official position and teaching with regard to people of SSA is **not **insidious antagonism directed toward them. It is one of love, empathy, compassion, caring.
Granted, we, on the front-line, have a lot of growing up to do to come to embrace that teaching. You can tell from the forums here what a struggle it is when socially we’ve been trained over the centuries to despise and reject those people. Thank goodness the Church has remained steadfast in preserving the Truth - Christ’s Truth - that those with SSA deserve our love and compassion and that we are called to help them remain in the grace of God.
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YinYangMom
Guest
Buffalo, you’ve got mail
…but your box is full 
These are the references from the Catechism…
**363 **In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.
366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235
1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul,5 The human person is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake."6 From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.
Perhaps, this 1703…distinguishes a human soul from that of an animal??? In which case, any understanding of animals and plants having a soul should not imply that soul is equivalent to ours.
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buffalo
Guest
I must be one popular guy!!
or maybe not - maybe they are criticisms! :crying: I will fix it! :bounce:
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dennisknapp
Guest
Here is my position on homosexuality.
We as Catholics believe that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. We recieve this belief via two sources, Natural Law and Revelation.
Revelation teaches homosexual acts are disordered because God has said so. We believe God, therefore we think homosexual acts are disordered.
Likewise, Natural Law shows us that homosexual acts are disordered in that they stand in opposition to the natural order.
According to Natural Law, homosexuality is tantamount to suicidal genocide. Homosexuality exist because it relies on the nature order for survival. If only homosexuals existed the human race would die out in one generation. This is genocide. It is suicide in that it is inflicted on the self by choice.
I know this may seem harsh but the truth can be that way sometimes.
Peace
We as Catholics believe that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. We recieve this belief via two sources, Natural Law and Revelation.
Revelation teaches homosexual acts are disordered because God has said so. We believe God, therefore we think homosexual acts are disordered.
Likewise, Natural Law shows us that homosexual acts are disordered in that they stand in opposition to the natural order.
According to Natural Law, homosexuality is tantamount to suicidal genocide. Homosexuality exist because it relies on the nature order for survival. If only homosexuals existed the human race would die out in one generation. This is genocide. It is suicide in that it is inflicted on the self by choice.
I know this may seem harsh but the truth can be that way sometimes.
Peace
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buffalo
Guest
Right on!
And it makes perfect sense that God would support His natural laws, after all He made them.
Now, He very well could have set up a different mechanism to procreate.
The heterosexual desire is not disordered as it incents through pleasure through the marital act. It is a beautiful thing. God has also called us to self mastery and self giving love.
ega - is there something intrinsically evil with these teachings?
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dennisknapp
Guest
Sex between same gender is not sex at all but mutual manipulation. The sexual organs are those that can, when combined, have the potential to create life. Sex by its very nature is life giving, why? Life comes from it. Same gender manipulation is not sex. It can bring forth no life. Life=sperm+ovum, not sperm+feces.
Peace
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dennisknapp
Guest
Image does not mean physical appearence, but the ability to reflect the mutable aspects of God, i.e., goodness, love, selflessness, etc.
Peace
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Brad
Guest
Infertile married couples is good for health/society as long as they stay committed to one another. The track record of homosexual couples staying committed to one another is terrible. Promiscuity rates are 8 times higher for unmarried homosexual couples than unmarried heterosexual couples. This is, I believe, from the AIDs journal. It is on these threads somewhere.
Is it a restriction or is it a benefit to body, soul, and future spouse?
I can be bothered.
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Brad
Guest
It is historically attested to.
There is no historical record of anyone at the time the man Jesus Christ walked the earth asserting that He did not perform miracles.
In fact, the historian Josephus (not a Christian) recorded that Jesus did perform miracles (such as walking on water) but indicated that the Jewish authorities (who were vigorously attempting to discredit him considering Christianity was growing at an extremely rapid rate and was claiming that the Jews killed God) claimed Jesus received his power from evil spirits. They never discredited that He did, in fact, perform the miracles.
Wouldn’t you think the Jewish authorities would make the claim that Jesus did not perform such miracles if He really didn’t?
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Riley259
Guest
You’re the classic atheist/sceptic: You seem to enjoy your attempts to cut down people to size. You constantly beg the question and yourself engage in circular reasoning. However, it’s highly unlikely that you’llt get anyone to change their deeply held beliefs on this forum so maybe it’s time to move on.
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