National Sunday Law

[Stephen_C]

Do they keep God’s eternal Moral Law that is placed inside the Ark of the Covenant that includes keeping the Sabbath holy? If the answer is “no”, they don’t qualify as being true to God once they’ve been made aware of the truth.

Before you say it’s “Old Testament law”, keep in mind the last time the Ark is mentioned is in Revelation 11:19: “Then, in heaven, the Temple of God was opened and the Ark of his covenant could be seen inside the Temple. Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and roared, and there was an earthquake and a terrible hailstorm.”

It was written by the finger of God and was meant to be obeyed forever…for those of us that truly love him.

Again that is your interpretation. By what authority makes your interpretation better than theirs? We all read the same Bible…well most likey you are 7 books short…All these group/folks claim guidance of the Holy Spirit when reading/ discerning it’s meaning.

 

[PaulDupre]

Incredibly Catholic…perhaps, as I’ve learned. But show me the evidence of where they went to confession.

But they [who receive the Eucharist unworthily] spurn and despise all these warnings; and before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest, before the offense against an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, they do violence to the body and blood of the Lord.

Confess even this to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. Thus, they remove the weight from their souls and seek the saving remedy for their wounds however small and slight they be; for they know it is written: “God is not mocked”.

I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sins while he is still in this world - while his confession can still be received and while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are still pleasing to the Lord.

• Cyprian, The Lapsed (251 A.D.)

 

[BibleTruth]

PaulDupre:
I hope you’re not thinking because that’s written by some Catholic that I’m going to believe it’s God’s word.

 

[BibleTruth]

Again that is your interpretation. By what authority makes your interpretation better than theirs? We all read the same Bible…well most likey you are 7 books short…All these group/folks claim guidance of the Holy Spirit when reading/ discerning it’s meaning.

Please answer my question first…thanks.

 

[Stephen_C]

Moses made a clear distinction in Exodus 34:28-29: “And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses’ hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.”

Deuteronomy 4:13: “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.”

Deuteronomy 10:4: “And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.”

These “ten commandments” did not include and were totally separate from the ceremonial laws in Leviticus that “looked forward to Christ” and were written on paper and kept “outside the Ark”.

If this isn’t the case, please answer why James would write this…

James 1:19-25: “Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the **engrafted **word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.”

The Greek word for “engrafted” is “emphytos” and it means: inborn, implanted by nature, implanted by others instruction.

By no means is James suggesting we go back to sacrificing lambs every day.

Ok lets look at it this another way, you have already demonstrated the ability to copy and paste (and taken out of its intended context) together unrelated quotes from our (Catholic) Bible to form it to your will……I get that…… So by what authority given to you that you can do that? And why is your pasting unrelated (and taken out of its intended context) is better than theirs?

 

[Stephen_C]

Please answer my question first…thanks.

What question would that be? All I have seen from you is the same ole anti-Catholic tirade. You have set your self apart is the sole infallable interpreter of the Bible. So what question would you have for this lowly idle/Mary/Pope worshiping member of the Whore of Babylon. Or was it just the papacy which is the WOB? I get confused…

 

[BibleTruth]

What question would that be? All I have seen from you is the same ole anti-Catholic tirade. You have set your self apart is the sole infallable interpreter of the Bible. So what question would you have for this lowly idle/Mary/Pope worshiping member of the Whore of Babylon. Or was it just the papacy which is the WOB? I get confused…

Do they keep God’s eternal Moral Law that is placed inside the Ark of the Covenant that includes keeping the Sabbath holy?

The “whore” is pagan Rome.

 

[PaulDupre]

A woman in biblical terms/prophecy refers to a church. God’s true church is mentioned in Revelations 12…the one that had a son (Jesus) that the dragon (with seven heads, ten horns and seven crowns) tried to devour when it was born (by Herod, who was a Roman client king). It was clothed with the sun and had a crown of 12 stars.

That woman sounds like the Blessed Virgin to me. Revelation chapter 11 ends with John’s vision of the ark of the covenant in heaven. This is immediately followed by the woman appearing clothed with the sun. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Just as the original ark carried the tablets of Moses (the word of God), the rod of Aaron (the priest) and the manna (the bread of life), so the Blessed Virgin carried in her womb Jesus the savior (the Word of God, our High Priest and the Bread of Life).

When the ark was completed, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle (Ex. 40:34–35; Num. 9:18, 22). The verb for “to cover” or “to overshadow” and the metaphor of a cloud are used in the Bible to represent the presence and glory of God.

The Holy Spirit overshadowed the ark, and the Holy Spirit overshadowed the Blessed Virgin (Luke 1:35).

The ark could be touched by no man other than the high priest. Mary remained a virgin her entire life.

You can read more about it here.

When Jesus died, he was executed by Romans, pierced by Romans, his tomb had a Roman seal on it and it was guarded by Romans.

The woman (church) in Revelations 17 was sitting on a scarlet beast that had seven heads and ten horns. Verse 9 says that the seven heads represent the seven hills where the woman rules. It also represents seven kings.

Rome is well known as the “City on Seven Hills”.

Did you know that Jerusalem is also built on seven hills? So are 31 other cities.

Additionally, when pagan Rome fell, it was divided into ten kingdoms (hence the ten horns…). Seven of these kingdoms accepted papal Roman rule, but three…the Heruli, Ostrogoths and Vandals resisted. If you go back to Daniel 7:8, you’ll see prophecy on this (the “little horn” mentioned there is the pope).

You have no evidence for the assertion that the little horn is the pope. That is a baseless supposition made by your sect. You only want to believe it because your sect teaches hatred of the Catholic Church. In fact, hatred of Catholicism is the focus of the entire SDA message.

The Ostrogoths were the last to fall in 538 A.D. which is the start of the 1260-year prophecy mentioned in Revelations 12:6 (I have other posts explaining the day/year time prophecies). It’s during those 1260 years (538 A.D. through 1798 A.D.) that God’s true church fled into the wilderness while countless saints were murdered by the hand of the papacy.

There is no historical evidence that “the true church fled into the wilderness” or that any saints were “murdered by the papacy”. This is pure fiction invented in the 19th century.

There’s so much more to all of this, but I’m fairly sure you don’t believe it. If I’m correct and you don’t believe it, it’s because you don’t want to believe it…not because it’s not true.

I don’t believe it because it does not fit the known history of the Church. Your belief in this bizarre revision of history is motivated solely by the hatred promoted by your sect.

Bible prophecy is true, just not your sect’s warped interpretation of it.

Paul

 

[BibleTruth]

Ok lets look at it this another way, you have already demonstrated the ability to copy and paste (and taken out of its intended context) together unrelated quotes from our (Catholic) Bible to form it to your will……I get that…… So by what authority given to you that you can do that? And why is your pasting unrelated (and taken out of its intended context) is better than theirs?

None of what I copied and pasted is out of context…it all supports my understanding. Me copying and pasting shouldn’t be of any lesser value from anyone who does it here. Make no mistake, my Bible is right here with me the entire time so the context is indeed understood.

Here’s more:

Isaiah 28:13-15 (NLT): Isaiah 28:13-15: "So the Lord will spell out his message for them again, one line at a time, one line at a time,
a little here, and a little there, so that they will stumble and fall. They will be injured, trapped, and captured. Therefore, listen to this message from the Lord, you scoffing rulers in Jerusalem. You boast, “We have struck a bargain to cheat death and have made a deal to dodge the grave. The coming destruction can never touch us, for we have built a strong refuge made of lies and deception.”

Please show me where in the Bible that God intended his word to be only for Catholics, especially since Catholics don’t adhere to it but claim authority over it.

 

[PaulDupre]

I already posted the quote…but:

May 7, 1997 (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist News Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061-0368, fbns@wayoflife.org) - On May 7 Pope John Paul II dedicated his general audience to “the Virgin Mary” and urged all Christians to accept Mary as their mother. He noted the words spoken by Jesus on the cross to Mary and to John–“Woman, behold thy son!” and “Behold thy mother!” (John 19:26,27), and he claimed that in this statement “IT IS POSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND THE AUTHENTIC MEANING OF MARIAN WORSHIP in the ecclesial community … which furthermore is based on the will of Christ” (Vatican Information Service, May 7, 1997).

Oh brother, you are really reaching here…

Notice that this story comes not from the Catholic Church but from the Fundamental Baptist News Service.

This one is easy. The pope’s general audience speeches are given and published in Latin, not English. They are then translated into other languages, including French and English. The word in Latin is “hyperdulia” which literally means “high honors”. In American English we usually translate that word as “veneration”, NOT WORSHIP. It is the word used to denote the high honor given to Mary.

“Worship” ,as we would normally use the word in the U.S., in Latin is “latria” and that word is reserved to the worship given to God alone.

Now, why do you suppose the Fundamental Baptist News Service decided to use an English translation that rendered “hyperdulia” as “worship” instead of “veneration”? It’s a rhetorical question.

Besides, you may not know that in older English (i.e.: in England) the word “worship” is used to connote the respect and honor given to magistrates, heroes and anyone worthy of honor (judges are routinely addressed as “Your Worship”). It was never confused with the worship given to God alone - people had more sense than that.

That is one of the problems with SDA, JW and LDS being strictly American religions - they think that everything is in modern American English and evaluate all words in the way they are spoken modernly in the U.S. Your religion being a very recent American invention and having only 130 years of history leads you into a great deal of confusion (and cultural snobbery).

 

[haybaler]

A radical 7th day Adventist offshoot group gathers outside Catholic churches in Souther Oregon to try to stop worshippers from attending mass. They pass out nasty little booklets called National Sunday Law, the usual stuff calling us the “Whore of Babylon”, etc. They have gone as far as vandalizing church property and nailing hateful posters on the church doors.

A friend of mine has been totally brainwashed by this vehemently anti-catholic fringe group. I am trying to lead him to the truth, but it has been a difficult struggle. Does anyone have any information about this group, or about the author of Jan Marcussen who wrote that trashy little book called National Sunday Law? I would appreciate any help in my effort to bring my friend out of that awful cult-like sect.

Thanks -
Daniel

I have been studying this for about 6 months. My husband is considering joining because he believes the Saturday Sabbath is True. I attend church with him so I can support him and study their claims. There are many former adventist websites that can help with some good arguments. I have all the books by Dale Ratzlaff. He is very helpful, a 4th generation adventist that got out. It is a CULT. The RCC is the Anti-Christ to them. That’s how I came here, to study their claims against the Catholic church. Because of them I may convert to Catholicism. They are really into revisionist history. There are so many websites for ex-adventists, try a google search. Good luck it can be very frustrating!!!
God Bless You-
Gina

 

[Stephen_C]

None of what I copied and pasted is out of context…it all supports my understanding. Me copying and pasting shouldn’t be of any lesser value from anyone who does it here. Make no mistake, my Bible is right here with me the entire time so the context is indeed understood.

Here’s more:

Isaiah 28:13-15 (NLT): Isaiah 28:13-15: "So the Lord will spell out his message for them again, one line at a time, one line at a time,
a little here, and a little there, so that they will stumble and fall. They will be injured, trapped, and captured. Therefore, listen to this message from the Lord, you scoffing rulers in Jerusalem. You boast, “We have struck a bargain to cheat death and have made a deal to dodge the grave. The coming destruction can never touch us, for we have built a strong refuge made of lies and deception.”

Please show me where in the Bible that God intended his word to be only for Catholics, especially since Catholics don’t adhere to it but claim authority over it.

Got me there… As soon as I figure out how to balance myself on only one leg of the stool…Until then I will keep to my three legged stool as Jesus intended…That is the true beauty of being a member of the Church Jesus founded. I don’t have to try and reinvent the wheel…… I will continue to form my will to his. As to my non-Catholic Christians, I rejoice that they have found Jesus. Just wished they understood there is much more… But non the less they all are my brothers and sisters in Christ…and that is at least something we can share…
Oh btw there is nothing from the Bible that contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church. Since it was the Catholic Church (guided by the Holy Spirit) which compiled the Bible…Just your interpretation of our Bible…

God Bless,
Stephen

 

[BibleTruth]

That woman sounds like the Blessed Virgin to me. Revelation chapter 11 ends with John’s vision of the ark of the covenant in heaven. This is immediately followed by the woman appearing clothed with the sun. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Just as the original ark carried the tablets of Moses (the word of God), the rod of Aaron (the priest) and the manna (the bread of life), so the Blessed Virgin carried in her womb Jesus the savior (the Word of God, our High Priest and the Bread of Life).

When the ark was completed, the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle (Ex. 40:34–35; Num. 9:18, 22). The verb for “to cover” or “to overshadow” and the metaphor of a cloud are used in the Bible to represent the presence and glory of God.

The Holy Spirit overshadowed the ark, and the Holy Spirit overshadowed the Blessed Virgin (Luke 1:35).

The ark could be touched by no man other than the high priest. Mary remained a virgin her entire life.

You can read more about it here.

Did you know that Jerusalem is also built on seven hills? So are 31 other cities.

You have no evidence for the assertion that the little horn is the pope. That is a baseless supposition made by your sect. You only want to believe it because your sect teaches hatred of the Catholic Church. In fact, hatred of Catholicism is the focus of the entire SDA message.

There is no historical evidence that “the true church fled into the wilderness” or that any saints were “murdered by the papacy”. This is pure fiction invented in the 19th century.

I don’t believe it because it does not fit the known history of the Church. Your belief in this bizarre revision of history is motivated solely by the hatred promoted by your sect.

Bible prophecy is true, just not your sect’s warped interpretation of it.

Paul

Talk about copying and pasting…

Again, a woman in biblical prophecy represents a church. If Mary remained a virgin her entire life, how did Jesus have siblings? The teachings of your church have totally shielded your mind from the truth.

Matthew 1:25: “But he (Joseph) did not have sexual relations with her (Mary) **until **her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.”

Matthew 12:46: “As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him.”

Acts 1:12-14: Then the apostles returned to Jerusalem from the Mount of Olives, a distance of half a mile. When they arrived, they went to the upstairs room of the house where they were staying. Here are the names of those who were present: Peter, John, James, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, James (son of Alphaeus), Simon (the Zealot), and Judas (son of James). They all met together and were constantly united in prayer, along with Mary the mother of Jesus, several other women, and the brothers of Jesus (separate from the named apostles).

History is all the evidence I need friend. Ask yourself why there are dungeons in many churches across Europe. I’d say go ask your Heruli, Vandal and Ostrogoth friends, but there aren’t any because the “little horn” did away with the last of them as a kingdom in 538 A.D. I don’t hate anyone…I wish we could all be saved; I just follow the Bible and pray that you will some day.

Matthew 7:13-14: “You can enter God’s Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose that way. But the gateway to life is very narrow and the road is difficult, and only a few ever find it."

The gate just might be too small for the entire “universal” church you belong to.

Along those lines, Revelation 12:9: “This great dragon—the ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world (the members of the Catholic church)—was thrown down to the earth with all his angels.”

It appears that you and many others here have fell to that very deceit.

 

[PaulDupre]

I’m bowing out of this thread and all discussions with SDAs. The more we defuse the outlandish and frankly silly attacks on Catholicism, the more outlandish the attacks become. All they are interested in is attacking, and they don’t even consider the answers we put so much time into providing. They are too busy formulating the next attack.

I have discovered through this thread and the SDA sources to which this thread has led me that the SDAs are about only one thing: hatred of the Catholic Church. It is all they teach and all they have to offer. How shallow, and how angry and miserable they all seem to be. No thanks.

Be well,
Paul

 

[BibleTruth]

Got me there… As soon as I figure out how to balance myself on only one leg of the stool…Until then I will keep to my three legged stool as Jesus intended…That is the true beauty of being a member of the Church Jesus founded. I don’t have to try and reinvent the wheel…… I will continue to form my will to his. As to my non-Catholic Christians, I rejoice that they have found Jesus. Just wished they understood there is much more… But non the less they all are my brothers and sisters in Christ…and that is at least something we can share…
Oh btw there is nothing from the Bible that contradicts the teachings of the Catholic Church. Since it was the Catholic Church (guided by the Holy Spirit) which compiled the Bible…Just your interpretation of our Bible…

God Bless,
Stephen

2 Timothy 3:16-17: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect (which means I don’t need Catholic sacrilegious teachings), thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The Bible contradicts your belief that when someone dies, they “go” somewhere else before Jesus comes again as opposed to being in a dreamless, unconscious sleep. Since we’re obviously not talking about the Sabbath anymore, maybe we can discuss that.

Also, the Bible doesn’t tell us that Mary was a virgin her whole life or that she is to be worshiped.

The Bible instructs us not to bow down before idols.

Just because the Catholic church put the Bible together…they did not write it but did all they could from letting you know the truth in it. What they did write, which a lot of Catholics seem to put more credence into, was mostly contrary to the Bible.

 

[BibleTruth]

I’m bowing out of this thread and all discussions with SDAs. The more we defuse the outlandish and frankly silly attacks on Catholicism, the more outlandish the attacks become. All they are interested in is attacking, and they don’t even consider the answers we put so much time into providing. They are too busy formulating the next attack.

I have discovered through this thread and the SDA sources to which this thread has led me that the SDAs are about only one thing: hatred of the Catholic Church. It is all they teach and all they have to offer. How shallow, and how angry and miserable they all seem to be. No thanks.

Be well,
Paul

The truth will set you free, friend…don’t run from it.

We teach the Bible and stress the urgency of the Three Angels message in Revelations 14:6-13:

"And I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the eternal Good News to proclaim to the people who belong to this world—to every nation, tribe, language, and people. “Fear God,” he shouted. “Give glory to him. For the time has come when he will sit as judge. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all the springs of water.”

Then another angel followed him through the sky, shouting, “Babylon is fallen—that great city is fallen—because she made all the nations of the world drink the wine of her passionate immorality.”

Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”

This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this down: Blessed are those who die in the Lord from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, they are blessed indeed, for they will rest from their hard work; for their good deeds follow them!”

Technically, you haven’t really answered anything but all the best to you.

 

[inJESUS]

Sorry but what is SDA? another branch of protestantism?

 

[BibleTruth]

Sorry but what is SDA? another branch of protestantism?

Seventh-day Adventist. A protestant Christian community of believers.

Some will incorrectly tell you we base our theology on the teachings on the work of Ellen G. White. Although I believe she was inspired by God with the spirit of prophecy and has volumes of very insightful writings, I (along with most other Adventists) base my theology on the Bible.

 

[Stephen_C]

2 Timothy 3:16-17: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect (which means I don’t need Catholic sacrilegious teachings), thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

The Bible contradicts your belief that when someone dies, they “go” somewhere else before Jesus comes again as opposed to being in a dreamless, unconscious sleep. Since we’re obviously not talking about the Sabbath anymore, maybe we can discuss that.

Also, the Bible doesn’t tell us that Mary was a virgin her whole life or that she is to be worshiped.

The Bible instructs us not to bow down before idols.

Just because the Catholic church put the Bible together…they did not write it but did all they could from letting you know the truth in it. What they did write, which a lot of Catholics seem to put more credence into, was mostly contrary to the Bible.

Sometimes one must shake the dust of his sandals and move on. You are not here is discuss but to evangelize us Catholic’s. Again, not that it will do any good…… The Catholic Church does not contradict scripture……just your interpretation of our scripture. You just cannot see the forest because that one tree in front of you keeps getting in the way of your view.

God Bless,
Stephen

 

[inJESUS]

Seventh-day Adventist. A protestant Christian community of believers.

Some will incorrectly tell you we base our theology on the teachings on the work of Ellen G. White. Although I believe she was inspired by God with the spirit of prophecy and has volumes of very insightful writings, I (along with most other Adventists) base my theology on the Bible.

ok brother thank you. Do you, as a community, believe in the same interpretation of the Bible? and how come other Protestants who read the same Bible might not believe in what you believe? how do you know who is right?

It is beautiful to see people reading the Bible and truly devoted Christians, but what is wrong bro? are you or I more jealous about Jesus’ church than Jesus Himself? if the church He founded teaches error, how do we trust the churches started by men ?

My questions are not an attack really…they stem from my sadness over the fact that evey now and then someone in the USA starts a new church that Americans ended up having too many denoms as if Jesus was waiting for these people who do not even agree with each other to correct His Church.

God bless all and have mercy on us.