New report from ireland

[Yellow_Belle]

Vatican recalls the Papal Nuncio to Ireland 25 July ’11.

I doubt there will be many tears shed in Ireland over that…

 

[Dale_M]

I doubt there will be many tears shed in Ireland over that…

No, I guess not. At least judging from the Prime Minister’s speech last week:

Last week, the Irish prime minister, Enda Kenny, denounced “the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism, and the narcissism, that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day,” in a speech that represented the government’s sharpest ever direct attack on the Catholic leadership.

The prime minister told Parliament last week that, “The rape and torture of children were downplayed or ‘managed’ to uphold instead, the primacy of the institution, its power, standing and ‘reputation.’ ” Mr. Kenny added that the Vatican had not listened “to evidence of humiliation and betrayal” with compassion but had instead chosen “to parse and analyze it with the gimlet eye of a canon lawyer.” The Irish parliament also passed a motion denouncing the Vatican’s role in “undermining child protection frameworks.”

nytimes.com/2011/07/26/world/europe/26church.html

 

[JonahJ]

There is an increasingly common perception that Enda Kenny’s outburst was designed to deflect media attention away from selling out even more of Ireland’s sovereignty to Europe.

He did just that, last week.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

There is an increasingly common perception that Enda Kenny’s outburst was designed to deflect media attention away from selling out even more of Ireland’s sovereignty to Europe.

There is? News to me.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

Like I said on another thread

. Just a gombeen Irish politician trying to look tough in front of the electorate by sticking it up to the Vatican. Why? Because Ireland didn’t have the sovereign authority to investigate a foreign state.(Compare like for like, has Ireland ever investigated the British government over espionage/terrorism in ROI, indeed did the British government cooperate with an Irish investigation into its actions like, say,in the Irish report into Bloody Sunday(Not to be confused with their own Saville Inquiry)?)
If he were really serious he would issue an arrest warrent for clergy guilty of any crimes, including any absconding bishops. Even better they would have stopped anyone who was an obvious flight risk from leaving the country in the first place, but that smacks too much of a government doing its job. Something Irish governments have been historically inept at doing. Also the same standards would have to apply to those who aren’t clergy which would mean sorting out the staff in more than a few schools around the country. (Yes, the state had convicted and registered sex offenders on its payroll. Talk about the left hand not knowing what the right was doing! Are those who hired a convicted sex offender, known in the community, in a school being held to account also, no, all the staff, teahers and headteacher etc will still remain in their jobs.If the same standards were to be applied to ‘ordinary’ citizens they would be held to account also, something an inept government will not be prepared to do. A bit of bombastic filibustering is not a substitute for leadership and good government…While we could have more practical proceedures for protecting vulnerable members of society, we still need to hold those with resposiblity to account, which, unfortunately in Ireland, we don’t, clerics or citizens alike.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Like I said on another thread

Well, it’s an opinion of sorts…

 

[HOLY_POOH_FAN]

Mature, considered and measured? Not so much.

This Fr Hoban piece arises from the agenda of the Association of Catholic Priests in Ireland. His main point is the dominance of the Catholic Church over life in Ireland where the majority are Catholics and a peculiar Church-State sybmiosis was at work. Much the same as Baptists in many US small towns and in some Legislatures impose their will and mores - do not hire Catholics, ban alcohol- minors who are checkers cannot handle beer in a check-out at grocery stores, make all gambling illegal (not as powerful a lobby as it was)…
A retired professor of Moral Theology at Maynooth, Fr Vincent Toomey SVD who was a student of, and wrote a book on BXV1, recently suggested that all bishops named before the archbishop of Dublin be recalled despite their being many good men among them he said. He also said that An Taoiseach (PM) Mr Kenny was not all-wisein his criticism of the Pope and the Vatican even as Fr Toomey admitted the actual anger and harm done… He and a professional lay journalist pointed to serious errors in a quote from the Pope applied to the Irish State which was written for and to theologians within and about the Church. That was used by Taioseach Kenny and he made un-specified condemnations of the Vatican as narcissisitc and interfering with the Irish State to help the Church as institution and allow the severe abuse of children. The references to canon law and civil law made by him and other Government ministers showed an ignorance of both and were in total denial that the Pope and his Curia (government agencies) specifically demaned that civil law be respected for reporting. So far there is no law required for Irish citizens to report abuse while the bishops asked for it in 1996 of themselves and their clergy.
Fair is fair. Government ministers need be more circumspect in attacking any other State or Faith group despite their legitimate concerns because false information hs a way of biting back in the long run.

 

[Limerickman]

It should be remembered that the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Enda Kenny is himself a practicing Roman Catholic.

The entire problem in relation to the Cloyne Report is that the church authorities did not follow the reporting procedure required where allegations of child sexual abuse is concerned.
(why a procedure needs to be in place to report a crime beggars belief but anyhow).

The difficulty I have with Enda Kenny’s view is this. It is unclear if the Irish Church authorities in Cloyne disclosed to the Vatican what was going on.
It seems to me that the problem we have in this country is largely due to the failings of the Irish Roman Catholic Church and it’s clergy and not the Vatican.

 

[Catherine_S]

*Mon Jul 25, 2011 20:12 EST *
*Tags: clergy sexual abuse, *ireland

One long-time observer of the Catholic scene, a publisher of a Catholic magazine, told LifeSiteNews.com that this bloc within the Church is using the “Cloyne debacle” to obstruct the appointment of new bishops loyal to Pope Benedict and the** teachings** of the Church. They hope, he said, to** manipulate** the situation so as to “lead to the appointment of someone favourable to the very establishment that** has created the problem”.**
At the same time, the government is using the situation to drive a wedge between the Irish people and** the Church**. The commenter pointed to the speech last week by the Irish Prime Minister attacking the Vatican, calling it “a gross act of deception” by Enda Kenny “and his socialist allies”.
“They are using this bandwagon of hate against the Church** to make it easy for them to introduce abortion next year, same sex marriage and are currently trying to ban the daily recital of prayers** in the Dail.
“They have shown their true colours and want** to remove Christianity** from **public **life.”

The government has* not*** revealed who wrote Kenny’s speech, but it is known that one of his** top** advisors is Frank Flannery whose** brother** is Fr. Tony Flannery,** founder** of the** Association of Catholic Priests. This group, widely quoted in the press in recent** weeks, has called for the establishment of a** nationalistic Church,** separated from Rome,that would be run along democratic lines. It was formed last year* and** began*** by demanding that the Church “re-evaluate” Catholic** sexual** teaching.
David Quinn comments,* “Ireland currently*** is deep in the grip of the sort of Jacobinism that seized France more than two centuries ago, only without the violence.
“But the* attempt*** to seize the property of the Church is there. The wish to almost completely** secularise society is there. The desire to demonise Rome is there, and just as in Revolutionary France** there** are priests** and **laity happy **to go along with all this.”
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/irish-govt-using-abuse-reports-to-establish-national-church-

 

[Corki]

A retired professor of Moral Theology at Maynooth, Fr Vincent Toomey SVD who was a student of, and wrote a book on BXV1, recently suggested that all bishops named before the archbishop of Dublin be recalled despite their being many good men among them he said.

Recalled to where? You can’t unordain a Bishop!

 

[Young_Thinker]

Recalled to where? You can’t unordain a Bishop!

Maybe to a titular see, like Bld. John Paul II did with an unorthodox French bishop (I forget his name or which diocese he had presided over) about 15 years ago.

 

[Corki]

Maybe to a titular see, like Bld. John Paul II did with an unorthodox French bishop (I forget his name or which diocese he had presided over) about 15 years ago.

I guess that’s basically what happened to Cardinal Law too.

But wouldn’t this make the priest shortage even worse by putting a number of working bishops “out of circulation”?

 

[Young_Thinker]

But wouldn’t this make the priest shortage even worse by putting a number of working bishops “out of circulation”?

It might, but I am certainly not endorsing anything that these politicians have said. At the same time, you don’t want to have a bishop who is incompetent (unless you could sidelined him with a strong-willed coadjutor or auxiliary who is more able) or an open heretic (not just keeping his ideas to himself but teaching them to his flock).

 

[BlueSapphire]

There is a vehemently anti-Catholic article in today’s Irish Independent which clearly paves the way for atrocious anti-Catholicism.

"Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza, the 10th representative of the Pope and career diplomat of the Holy See, must pine for days of power and glory when his predecessors enjoyed awesome political clout and enormous social influence.

With the Vatican being damned by Taoiseach Enda Kenny, scolded by Tanaiste and Foreign Affairs Minister Eamon Gilmore, and mauled verbally by all sides in Dail Eireann, the 67-year-old Italian was told he was living in the Republic of Ireland of 2011, not in the Vatican, the refugee-centre of paedophile clerics."

More…

independent.ie/national-news/papal-nuncios-days-of-power-and-glory-are-at-an-end-2829461.html

 

[Limerickman]

There is a vehemently anti-Catholic article in today’s Irish Independent which clearly paves the way for atrocious anti-Catholicism.

"Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza, the 10th representative of the Pope and career diplomat of the Holy See, must pine for days of power and glory when his predecessors enjoyed awesome political clout and enormous social influence.

With the Vatican being damned by Taoiseach Enda Kenny, scolded by Tanaiste and Foreign Affairs Minister Eamon Gilmore, and mauled verbally by all sides in Dail Eireann, the 67-year-old Italian was told he was living in the Republic of Ireland of 2011, not in the Vatican, the refugee-centre of paedophile clerics."

More…

independent.ie/national-news/papal-nuncios-days-of-power-and-glory-are-at-an-end-2829461.html

The author of the article that you linked is a well known bigot, it has to be said.

 

[JaMc]

It should be remembered that the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Enda Kenny is himself a practicing Roman Catholic.
. . .

That, in itself, means absolutely nothing, unfortunately. So are Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, Andrew Cuomo, Jerry Brown, John Kerry, etc. And so was Ted Kennedy.

As for anything else about Kenny, I do not know. The most I can decipher from the Irish party system is that is seems to me that the two major parties profess generally center-right/conservative views (with the only significant differences being their positions on the Treaty ending the Irish Civil War and the fact that they are not “the other guys”), but allow their junior coalition partners to drive the Government’s ideological direction, i.e., Fianna Fail + Progressive Democrats (which means the opposite as it would in the U.S.) = Right, and Fine Gael + Labour = Left.

However, if he continues to purse the utter sacrilege of attempting to force priests to break the seal of the confessional, one would hope that he refrains from presenting himself for Communion.

 

[jwinch2]

So are Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, Andrew Cuomo, Jerry Brown, John Kerry, etc. And so was Ted Kennedy.

Bingo…

 

[JonahJ]

The most I can decipher from the Irish party system is that is seems to me that the two major parties profess generally center-right/conservative views (with the only significant differences being their positions on the Treaty ending the Irish Civil War and the fact that they are not “the other guys”), but allow their junior coalition partners to drive the Government’s ideological direction, i.e., Fianna Fail + Progressive Democrats (which means the opposite as it would in the U.S.) = Right, and Fine Gael + Labour = Left.

However, if he continues to purse the utter sacrilege of attempting to force priests to break the seal of the confessional, one would hope that he refrains from presenting himself for Communion.

WaaaaaHooooo!!! Preach it brother.

And a pretty good synopses of our political system to boot.

 

[Young_Thinker]

WaaaaaHooooo!!! Preach it brother.

And a pretty good synopses of our political system to boot.

I can see a good old Irish priest giving a man like that a socking if he tries to receive the Eucharist!

 

[JonahJ]

However, if he continues to purse the utter sacrilege of attempting to force priests to break the seal of the confessional, one would hope that he refrains from presenting himself for Communion.

Just sent an e-mail to this effect to Enda. Nice one thanks.

Dear Enda,

If you continue to purse the utter sacrilege of attempting to force priests to break the seal of the confessional, one would hope that you refrain from presenting yourself for Holy Communion.

I offer this caution in absolute charity as your soul may be in peril.

God bless