Northern Ireland's IRA activity

[vern_humphrey]

I believe in a united Ireland as much as the next man, so before I say any more, let’s get that out of the way.

The IRA is responsible for a number of terrorist acts that are on the pale with the acts committed by many of our enemies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Because the IRA are “Catholics,” and support a cause many of us believe in, we have excused their terrorism, even made excuses for it.

I ought to remind some of you that none other than Gerry Adams has said he would like to “undo the cozy relationship between Church and State on this island (meaning the whole Irish Republic)”. He is also pro-abortion, and he and his allies within Sinn Fein have tried (unsuccessfully) to put a pro-abortion plank in Sinn Fein’s platform. Most SF candidates are either pro-abortion, or they merely won’t discuss the issue.

Are these the kind of people that we as practicing Catholics want to be associated with?

There are terrorists on both sides in Northern Ireland – in fact, not so long ago, it turned out that the British employed IRA terrorists – going so far as to set up a British soldier he was supposed to kill (and he did kill).

I think we should recognize the Irish Problem is an Irish problem, and the sooner the Irish are free do deal with it without outside interference, the better.

 

[FightingFat]

I think that’s exactly what the British want- to be rid of it- but the Unionists wont have it, so what do you do? Chuck 'em out?

Move them all to the Isle of Mann I say!

 

[Norwich]

FightingFat:

I think that’s exactly what the British want- to be rid of it- but the Unionists wont have it, so what do you do? Chuck 'em out?

Move them all to the Isle of Mann I say!

What on earth have the Manx people done to deserve that!!!

 

[_Joshua]

vern humphrey:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

True, another British Minister said one time (Tom King) that the IRA were a spent force, and defeated.
They wern’t long in giving their answer when around 15 bombs (approx) exploded all-over the North one Friday, he was more careful with his words in the future.
Anyway I don’t know why for the life of me when things could go back to as bad as they were before, what good does the blame game do ?

We need people talking to each-other, not washing our dirty linen in public.
To those that say the IRA robbed the bank, brilliant ! accessement, but what next ?

Blame and counter blame don’t get the problem fixed, laughing at the IRA is a dangerous game, playing down their recent statement is dangerous.

People have short memories of the past, maybe because we’ve had relative peace for 10 years, but we should’nt become complacent.
Keeping the IRA out in the cold is not the answer, that was tried before with Sein Fein, when the Irish government banned then from talking on TV.
Laughable when you consider that all they had to do was use actors dubbed over their voices, Britain followed suit, but the actors were so good that it was hard to recognize that it wasn’t the same person speaking.

It’s all been tried before and it didn’t work, I hope we don’t go back to road blocks, harassment, kicking down our doors etc:

Sad to say I’m used to all this, and no-one should have to get used to it, and I hope my grandchildren don’t have to live with another 25 or 30 years of conflict.

 

[_Joshua]

David Oatney:

I ought to remind some of you that none other than Gerry Adams has said he would like to “undo the cozy relationship between Church and State on this island (meaning the whole Irish Republic)”. He is also pro-abortion, and he and his allies within Sinn Fein have tried (unsuccessfully) to put a pro-abortion plank in Sinn Fein’s platform. Most SF candidates are either pro-abortion, or they merely won’t discuss the issue.

Are these the kind of people that we as practicing Catholics want to be associated with?

I’m a great believer in the Church having an (name removed by moderator)ut into the conscience of politicans no-matter where in the world. I think that Christians swung the election in the USA in favour of George Bush.
I think it’s a big mistake to seperate Church & State, just my opinion.
I did confront a Sein Fein candidate about their abortion stance, but an X-IRA man told me not to believe them, he’s totally pro-life
Just to clarify it’s been said once you join the IRA your in it for life, but he is inactive.
And before you start oiling your barrels, I’m not in the IRA, but I know quite a few of them.
I’m totally pro-life, and my user name is in memory of an aborted baby, little baby Joshua.

 

[vern_humphrey]

(Joshua):

True, another British Minister said one time (Tom King) that the IRA were a spent force, and defeated.
They wern’t long in giving their answer when around 15 bombs (approx) exploded all-over the North one Friday, he was more careful with his words in the future.
Anyway I don’t know why for the life of me when things could go back to as bad as they were before, what good does the blame game do ?

We need people talking to each-other, not washing our dirty linen in public.
To those that say the IRA robbed the bank, brilliant ! accessement, but what next ?

Blame and counter blame don’t get the problem fixed, laughing at the IRA is a dangerous game, playing down their recent statement is dangerous.

People have short memories of the past, maybe because we’ve had relative peace for 10 years, but we should’nt become complacent.
Keeping the IRA out in the cold is not the answer, that was tried before with Sein Fein, when the Irish government banned then from talking on TV.
Laughable when you consider that all they had to do was use actors dubbed over their voices, Britain followed suit, but the actors were so good that it was hard to recognize that it wasn’t the same person speaking.

It’s all been tried before and it didn’t work, I hope we don’t go back to road blocks, harassment, kicking down our doors etc:

Sad to say I’m used to all this, and no-one should have to get used to it, and I hope my grandchildren don’t have to live with another 25 or 30 years of conflict.

 

[Sowndog]

Norwich:

The longer the memories go on, the longer the hatred lasts, the deeper the divisions within our society, the harder peace will ever be. as I said in an earlier post the only way forward is to talk and understand, to make all Irish Men and Women IRISH. Not catholic Irish or Protestant Irish or Moslem Irish or Hindu Irish but IRISH IRISH. The day that happens we will no longer have need for the IRA, the UVF, Paisley and his ilk or any of them, we will have a democracy based on the wishes of the IRISH people alone and nobody else.

Amen.

I am a Catholic from Belfast. I am not old enough to remember the worst days of the troubles here, and my parents brought me up with a pretty neutral view. I can honestly say that there is absolutely no need for the IRA or any of the other paramilitary groups.

The majority of violence in the country stems from a deep-rooted hatred with little or no political reasoning whatsoever. Children grow up thinking it is normal to hate the other group, and I have seen young children rioting, throwing stones etc because they think that is what they are supposed to do. Protestants and Catholics here lead virtually identical lifestyles, both sides believing that the other is its opposite and its enemy. The problem is social, not political. Only by breaking down the social barriers can there be any progress.

Sectarianism in N. Ireland is much the same as racism.

As far as the Bank robbery is concerned, I do not claim to know who did it. I cannot deny the possibility that the IRA did it. What I am fairly sure about is that it was organised by Nationalists (a lot of the cash seems to be circulating in Catholic West Belfast.) The IRA do have access to guns - may I remind Americans that guns are illegal here. So this is the evidence that points to IRA involvement.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sowndog:

Amen.

I am a Catholic from Belfast. I am not old enough to remember the worst days of the troubles here, and my parents brought me up with a pretty neutral view. I can honestly say that there is absolutely no need for the IRA or any of the other paramilitary groups.

The majority of violence in the country stems from a deep-rooted hatred with little or no political reasoning whatsoever. Children grow up thinking it is normal to hate the other group, and I have seen young children rioting, throwing stones etc because they think that is what they are supposed to do. Protestants and Catholics here lead virtually identical lifestyles, both sides believing that the other is its opposite and its enemy. The problem is social, not political. Only by breaking down the social barriers can there be any progress.

Sectarianism in N. Ireland is much the same as racism.

As far as the Bank robbery is concerned, I do not claim to know who did it. I cannot deny the possibility that the IRA did it. What I am fairly sure about is that it was organised by Nationalists (a lot of the cash seems to be circulating in Catholic West Belfast.) The IRA do have access to guns - may I remind Americans that guns are illegal here. So this is the evidence that points to IRA involvement.

It’s certainly hard to argue that sectarian violence is “necessary.”

But the “Troubles” started with Catholics in Northern Ireland demanding civil rights. NICRA was modeled after the Civil Rights movement in the United States – and the response to it was as violent as the response to the Civil Rights movement in, say Alabama.

The difference being, there was no national government stepping in and putting a stop to violence.

The IRA at that point was a dead letter (they had disarmed and sold their weapons to the Welsh Nationalists in 1964.) But as mobs rampaged through Catholic neighborhoods, people expected the IRA to defend them. Common graffiti in Belfast at that time was, “IRA = I Ran Away.”

As a professional soldier, I was always intrested in the fact that the IRA is unique in one respect – normally groups like this (Basque Separatists, EOKA, Mau Mau and so on) are formed by activists and go out and recruit support from the people. The modern IRA was recruited BY the people.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sowndog:

Amen.

I am a Catholic from Belfast. I am not old enough to remember the worst days of the troubles here, and my parents brought me up with a pretty neutral view. I can honestly say that there is absolutely no need for the IRA or any of the other paramilitary groups.

The majority of violence in the country stems from a deep-rooted hatred with little or no political reasoning whatsoever. Children grow up thinking it is normal to hate the other group, and I have seen young children rioting, throwing stones etc because they think that is what they are supposed to do. Protestants and Catholics here lead virtually identical lifestyles, both sides believing that the other is its opposite and its enemy. The problem is social, not political. Only by breaking down the social barriers can there be any progress.

Sectarianism in N. Ireland is much the same as racism.

As far as the Bank robbery is concerned, I do not claim to know who did it. I cannot deny the possibility that the IRA did it. What I am fairly sure about is that it was organised by Nationalists (a lot of the cash seems to be circulating in Catholic West Belfast.) The IRA do have access to guns - may I remind Americans that guns are illegal here. So this is the evidence that points to IRA involvement.

 

[Sowndog]

vern humphrey:

It’s certainly hard to argue that sectarian violence is “necessary.”

But the “Troubles” started with Catholics in Northern Ireland demanding civil rights. NICRA was modeled after the Civil Rights movement in the United States – and the response to it was as violent as the response to the Civil Rights movement in, say Alabama.

The difference being, there was no national government stepping in and putting a stop to violence.

The IRA at that point was a dead letter (they had disarmed and sold their weapons to the Welsh Nationalists in 1964.) But as mobs rampaged through Catholic neighborhoods, people expected the IRA to defend them. Common graffiti in Belfast at that time was, “IRA = I Ran Away.”

As a professional soldier, I was always intrested in the fact that the IRA is unique in one respect – normally groups like this (Basque Separatists, EOKA, Mau Mau and so on) are formed by activists and go out and recruit support from the people. The modern IRA was recruited BY the people.

I am aware of the situation my country was in in the past, but there are no rampaging mobs or major civil rights violations here anymore. Just a small but vocal minority of bigotted individuals who won’t let go.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sowndog:

I am aware of the situation my country was in in the past, but there are no rampaging mobs or major civil rights violations here anymore. Just a small but vocal minority of bigotted individuals who won’t let go.

I am not justifying the present or past actions of the IRA (or any other group in that sad era). But to discuss the issue intelligently, we must look at the history.

One way of looking at insurgencies is to see society as a bell curve. On the left tail are people who would go to the gas chamber saying, “If it wasn’t the right thing, the government wouldn’t be doing it.” On the right tail are people who would want to fight you if you gave them ice cream.

As long as the center holds, neither group (tiny as they are) are much trouble. But if the center shifts in the direction of dissatisfaction, suddenly there are more people in that right tail. And that’s when you have an insurgency.

IF you act rapidly, and move the center back – satsifying the needs of the people – the insurgency dies out. If you don’t, it grows.

If you let it grow too long, you get a constituency around the insurgency, so that if you ever DO manage to shift the center back, you have a bi-modal distribution – the second peak being to the right of center, and representing an institutionalized insurgency.

That’s what’s happened in Northern Ireland and also in Palestine.

 

[Sowndog]

vern humphrey:

I am not justifying the present or past actions of the IRA (or any other group in that sad era). But to discuss the issue intelligently, we must look at the history.

One way of looking at insurgencies is to see society as a bell curve. On the left tail are people who would go to the gas chamber saying, “If it wasn’t the right thing, the government wouldn’t be doing it.” On the right tail are people who would want to fight you if you gave them ice cream.

As long as the center holds, neither group (tiny as they are) are much trouble. But if the center shifts in the direction of dissatisfaction, suddenly there are more people in that right tail. And that’s when you have an insurgency.

IF you act rapidly, and move the center back – satsifying the needs of the people – the insurgency dies out. If you don’t, it grows.

If you let it grow too long, you get a constituency around the insurgency, so that if you ever DO manage to shift the center back, you have a bi-modal distribution – the second peak being to the right of center, and representing an institutionalized insurgency.

That’s what’s happened in Northern Ireland and also in Palestine.

Ok, I get you now. I think I misunderstood your point initially.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sowndog:

Ok, I get you now. I think I misunderstood your point initially.

No problem.

But talking about this brings back the ironic point – in case after case, around the world, we see peace achieved after a generation or two of bloodshed on virtually the same terms that were peacefully requested before the violence started.

In Northern Ireland, in South Africa, and in many other cases, if someone had simply said, “That’s all you want? Why, sure!” a lot of bloodshed would have been avoided.

 

[Sowndog]

vern humphrey:

No problem.

But talking about this brings back the ironic point – in case after case, around the world, we see peace achieved after a generation or two of bloodshed on virtually the same terms that were peacefully requested before the violence started.

In Northern Ireland, in South Africa, and in many other cases, if someone had simply said, “That’s all you want? Why, sure!” a lot of bloodshed would have been avoided.

Very true, that’s something I have thought about many times!

 

[_Joshua]

vern humphrey:

The IRA at that point was a dead letter (they had disarmed and sold their weapons to the Welsh Nationalists in 1964.) But as mobs rampaged through Catholic neighborhoods, people expected the IRA to defend them. Common graffiti in Belfast at that time was, “IRA = I Ran Away.”

Totally true, when the British army came here in 1969 the Catholic women of the Falls & Bogside made them tea and etc:

But the Unionist powers at Stormont didn’t like it, so the British government were swamped with, " don’t suck up to them".

So with this rejection, the people looked to the IRA, so then when it didn’t suit some people, that wanted the IRA to stop, well !!! too bad, the cat was out of the bag.

Sowndog is too young to remember 1969 & the early 1970’s and a good job too, wish I could forget 1969.

So the people aren’t squeaky clean, they wanted the IRA, but then when they had made use of them decided they didn’t want them.

Too latre I’m afraid, the IRA were once seen as hero’s in Ireland, but soon became villians, in the eyes of some that saw them as protectors.

 

[HagiaSophia]

After introducing the collection, Cardinal Daly said: "I became bishop in 1967 and retired in 1996. My 29 years of active episcopal ministry coincided broadly with the years of what we have come to call ‘The Troubles’, which are usually dated between 1969 and 1994.

From the beginning, I felt that the Church’s response to the Troubles was going to be an important criterion of the relevance of the Church in Irish society in the 20th century. It seemed to me important that the Church’s voice should be heard, addressing the moral questions raised by the Troubles, such as: the question of the moral legitimacy of violence; the question of justice and equality in society and of human rights; the problems of deprivation and exclusion which can foster violence; the sectarianism which so polarises Northern society and which motivated the loyalist campaign of violence against Catholics, running in tandem with the republican campaign of violence; the question of the moral conditions governing the State’s use of violence to counter anti-state violence.

In a society where there is virtually no cross-community consensus regarding the causes of the conflict or regarding the terms in which it might be resolved, anyone speaking or writing about the situation was bound to be “heard” differently and diversely interpreted by one or other community or interest-group. My own approach was based on the conviction that a church person like myself must avoid any suspicion of being a mouthpiece for one or other political tradition, and should take his stand only on the ground of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. At the same time, I was conscious that what I was saying was likely to be “overheard” by people of a different religious or political background, or what we would commonly call “the other persuasion” or “the other community”. Consequently, anything one said or wrote should, I believed, “speak” to that “other community” also, and should show awareness of their convictions, their sensitivities, their rights. One had to resist any danger of being regarded as the “ethnarch” of a politico-sectarian community, rather than a minister of the Christian Gospel. Otherwise, one would only be creating or consolidating division, rather than working for reconciliation through mutual understanding. **That stance itself was, of course, doomed to be seen by some as a betrayal of “one’s own community”, and a dereliction of one’s pastoral duty towards “one’s own people”.

indcatholicnews.com/dalybelf.html

 

[David_Oatney]

(Joshua):

I’m a great believer in the Church having an (name removed by moderator)ut into the conscience of politicans no-matter where in the world. I think that Christians swung the election in the USA in favour of George Bush.
I think it’s a big mistake to seperate Church & State, just my opinion.
I did confront a Sein Fein candidate about their abortion stance, but an X-IRA man told me not to believe them, he’s totally pro-life
Just to clarify it’s been said once you join the IRA your in it for life, but he is inactive.
And before you start oiling your barrels, I’m not in the IRA, but I know quite a few of them.
I’m totally pro-life, and my user name is in memory of an aborted baby, little baby Joshua.

**Someone who is truly pro-life will not be afraid to publicly proclaim that fact. Someone who believes that the Church ought to have some influence of the actions of the State and the conscience of its leaders will not make statements to the contrary, as Gerry Adams and SF have in fact done. **

---

If SF is going to be a truly pro-life entity, its leaders must re-enforce that fact.

---

---

 

[vern_humphrey]

**Someone who is truly pro-life will not be afraid to publicly proclaim that fact. Someone who believes that the Church ought to have some influence of the actions of the State and the conscience of its leaders will not make statements to the contrary, as Gerry Adams and SF have in fact done. **

If SF is going to be a truly pro-life entity, its leaders must re-enforce that fact.

How many Catholics in the United States voted for “pro-choice” candidates?

Let’s cleanse our fingers before pointing them at someone else’s spots.

 

[Fitz]

2-8-05 Update:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4245165.stm

Irish PM says report ‘blames IRA’

More than £26m was stolen from the Northern Bank

A report on the Northern Bank raid will go further than the British and Irish governments in linking it to the IRA, Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has said.

The Independent Monitoring Commission’s report on the £26.5m raid is expected to be published on Thursday.

Mr Ahern was speaking in the Dail on Tuesday after the Irish cabinet met to discuss the report.

He told the Dail that if anything, the report would go beyond anything he has ever said.

Last month, Mr Ahern said that he believed Garda intelligence which suggested the IRA was responsible for the raid.

The IMC - which monitors paramilitary activity - finished its investigation into the December raid last week.

Its report is expected to endorse the police assessment that the IRA carried out the robbery.

Meanwhile, Sinn Fein assembly member Gerry Kelly has called on the Irish government to block any sanctions Sinn Fein may face following the bank robbery.

Mr Ahern met the IMC on 31 January.

PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde has blamed the IRA for the raid, a view also backed by the Garda.

However, the IRA denies the claims and, last week, it withdrew its offer of complete decommissioning. Prime Minister Tony Blair said he accepted the chief constable’s view that the IRA was behind the raid.

 

[Fitz]

Now ministers blame IRA:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4180363.stm

Last Updated: Monday, 17 January, 2005, 16:14 GMT http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/dot_629.gif
%between%
Bank raid was IRA say ministers

Paul Murphy and Dermot Ahern were discussing the raid’s impact

The Northern Ireland Secretary and the Irish foreign minister have said they are 100% convinced that the IRA was involved in the Northern Bank robbery.

Paul Murphy and Dermot Ahern met in Dublin on Monday to discuss the impact of the £26.5m raid.

Mr Murphy said the prospect of power-sharing has been dealt “a very serious blow” by last month’s raid.

Mr Ahern said evasion and denial by republicans was increasing the gulf of mistrust in the political process.

He said that confidence building in the political process has taken a major hit as a result of the robbery at the bank’s head office in Belfast.

’Mutual confidence’

However, Mr Ahern added: "Both governments remain firmly committed to achieving inclusive political arrangement in Northern Ireland.

“But we are very unlikely to achieve that outcome in the very near future.”

Mr Murphy said: "The world has changed in terms of how we deal with the process now.

“The impact of this event on the mutual confidence, trust and faith is that they have been damaged very seriously.”

Mr Murphy and Mr Ahern said the British and Irish governments would meet the political parties in Northern Ireland in coming days.

Millions of pounds were stolen from the bank on 20 December

He said they would consider every option put forward by the parties to move the process forward.

Questioned about financial sanctions against Sinn Fein, or the creation of a Stormont scrutiny committee which would not include republicans, Mr Murphy said he was still considering his options.

He later held talks with Michael McDowell at the Irish Department of Justice.

Last week, Mr McDowell launched a strong attack on Sinn Fein after the Police Service Northern Ireland blamed the IRA for the robbery.

After his talks with Mr Murphy on Monday, Mr McDowell said he had heard nothing from Garda intelligence to make him believe the asessment of PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde was incorrect.

At the weekend, Sinn Fein’s Martin McGuinness said if the IRA had carried out the Northern Bank raid it would have been “unacceptable”. The Democratic Unionist Party has called for the removal of allowances and privileges at Westminster from Sinn Fein’s four MPs. It follows an assessment by the PSNI Chief Constable Hugh Orde that the IRA was behind the raid on the bank head office in Belfast on 20 December.