Not By Faith Alone

[myfavoritmartin]

** I agree that in large part some are talking past others**. In fact, I mentioned this long ago. I disagree that we are all talking past each other since many people have responded to direct questions posed by others.
Which is it redbandito? are we or are we not talking past each other?

I won’t say any names.
Lemme say it for you…MYFAVORITMARTIN…

I will do what I can. I look forward to seeing what some others come up with. Should be interesting.

Randy, I appreciate what you guys would call ecumenicalism in your thought process, though remember I understand ecumenical from Romes standpoint," fall under us or their is no solution"… I am going to share with you justification in God’s word not an organization defining God’s word… I only hope you guys can do the same, even though I know you get all your answers from and must fall under the approval of Rome…

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I ask you this…

If you hope to get to heaven by good works, you must keep all the commandments perfectly?.. That’s what Christ did (for us)!
**How can you think what you do for yourself would get you any closer to salvation? **

Christ is your only Saviour, you are not your own Saviour, If you believe your works determine your salvation then Christ died for nothing. Gal 2:21.

 

[Nicene]

I ask you this…

If you hope to get to heaven by good works, you must keep all the commandments perfectly?.. That’s what Christ did (for us)!
**How can you think what you do for yourself would get you any closer to salvation? **

Christ is your only Saviour, you are not your own Saviour, If you believe your works determine your salvation then Christ died for nothing. Gal 2:21.

By this statement it is fairly apparent that you really don’t believe in the work of the Holy Spirit, the effacatiousness of Gods grace, nor the truth of being a son of God.

I hope you get to heaven in spite of shunning Gods works he prepared for you to walk in Eph 2:10 and not loving him enough to follow his commands.

24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

As opposed to those who love him and follow his commands, only in those will he make his home:

21: He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him."
22: Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?”
23: Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24: He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.

Those who do not abide in him and do those works, he does not make his home. This is how we know them.

Even the Jews believed they were guaranteed without walking with God or repenting, following the doctrines of men:

9: and do not presume to say to yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[Randy_Carson]

I ask you this…

If you hope to get to heaven by good works, you must keep all the commandments perfectly?.. That’s what Christ did (for us)!
**How can you think what you do for yourself would get you any closer to salvation? **

Christ is your only Saviour, you are not your own Saviour, If you believe your works determine your salvation then Christ died for nothing. Gal 2:21.

Faulty question. We don’t get to heaven BY good works.

Without God’s grace we cannot “work” our way into Heaven, lest we assume to obligate God. If we attempt to obligate God by our works, then those works must be perfect…which this would be impossible due to our fallen human nature; therefore, we need God’s grace to enable us to do any good work.

In the same manner, we need God’s grace to even have faith. When we do those good works, God supplies the grace for them, but they are still ours due to our free will. So the merit we gain is based upon our cooperation with God’s grace.

 

[Jim_Baur]

If you hope to get to heaven by good works, you must keep all the commandments perfectly?..

NO!

The Bible does not say that.

The Bible does say, you will love GOD. That is needed for salvation.

Again, the Bible does not say one must love God perfectly.

 

[Jim_Baur]

First God Loves Us.

Then His Voice/word Calls Us.

Then We Fall In Love With God.

Then We Hope To Share His Beauty.

Then We Believe Christ Gives God’s Beauty.

THIS STARTS ON EARTH AND IS COMPLETED IN HEAVEN!

 

[Jim_Baur]

I believe it is this way, I do not know for sure.

God loves us.

We love God’s beauty and happiness because He loved us first.

Then we hope to have or enjoy His beauty, love and happiness.

I fell in love with the beauty of chastity, truth, wisdom and fortitude.

I hope that those beautiful beings become a part of my life.

However, faith in Jesus the Messiah gives them to me.

If I love chastity et cetera, they are started now.

If I love them they will be completed in Heaven.

Then faith tells us that the Promises made to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David have been fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah. WE CAN HAVE THE BEAUTY OF TRUTH, CHASTITY, COURAGE AND ALL THE TRUTH CONTAINED IN CHRIST JESUS. CHRIST CONTAINS ALL OF THE PROMISES.

 

[johnbres2]

The Protestants are simply wrong about sola fidi and sola scriptura. Most of them are too stubborn to allow themselves to see that, as it causes their whole rotten theo-ill-ogical house to crumble.

 

[mikeledes]

I ask you this…

If you hope to get to heaven by good works, you must keep all the commandments perfectly?.. That’s what Christ did (for us)!
**How can you think what you do for yourself would get you any closer to salvation? **

Christ is your only Saviour, you are not your own Saviour, If you believe your works determine your salvation then Christ died for nothing. Gal 2:21.

This is impossible for man, but nothing is impossible with God. On our own initiative, we cannot keep the commandments and do good the way God wants us to because without Christ’s work on the Cross, we would all be in bondage to sin and would have an eternal debt that we could never pay. But through the Cross of Christ, God has freely given the justified a new heart, new life, and the Holy Spirit to lead us to holiness. He has empowered us to overcome sin (1 Corinthians 10:13) and has told us that “His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3)” because we are born of Him. Therefore, there is no excuse for deliberate sin.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[HailMary]

If you hope to get to heaven by good works, you must keep all the commandments perfectly?..

NO!

Yes, it does:
Revelations 3:2 (KJV):

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: *for I have not found thy works **perfect ***before God.

This only supports the Catholic position because we believe that we do our works with Jesus Christ - this is the only way they can ever become perfect.

 

[Jim_Baur]

I do not understand the KJV translation.

NAB talks about being complete, which in a sense is perfect or complete.

However, I am Roman Catholic.

I will always believe the official teaching of Our Church.

If I have made a mistake, sorry!

 

[Jim_Baur]

Does hope contain faith?

Does faith contain hope?

Or, is it too mysterious for us to comprehend?

 

[bibleapologist]

This is impossible for man, but nothing is impossible with God. On our own initiative, we cannot keep the commandments and do good the way God wants us to because without Christ’s work on the Cross, we would all be in bondage to sin and would have an eternal debt that we could never pay. But through the Cross of Christ, God has freely given the justified a new heart, new life, and the Holy Spirit to lead us to holiness. He has empowered us to overcome sin (1 Corinthians 10:13) and has told us that “His commandments are not burdensome (1 John 5:3)” because we are born of Him. Therefore, there is no excuse for deliberate sin.

God Bless,
Michael

That sounds logical… except that the Apostle Paul corrected that kind of thinking in Romans chapter 7.

If the Apostle Paul couldn’t keep himself from sinning, I think it’s a little arrogant for you to say that sinless perfection for yourself is possible.

BA

 

[mikeledes]

That sounds logical… except that the Apostle Paul corrected that kind of thinking in Romans chapter 7.

If the Apostle Paul couldn’t keep himself from sinning, I think it’s a little arrogant for you to say that sinless perfection for yourself is possible.

BA

If Romans 7 refers to the Christian post justification, then we are unspiritual and in bondage to sin. That is the complete opposite of what Paul says in Romans 5 and 6 and in the chapter 8. What he is talking is the state of the unjustified deprived of God’s grace and the Holy Spirit. That is why in the end of chapter 6 Paul is talking about how the law produced death in him and in chapter 7 he says that he is ENSLAVED by the sin that is in his members. If he is alking about himself post-justification, then this completely contradicts what he just said a chapter earlier whaen he tells Christians they ARE NO LONGER IN BONDAGE TO SIN, and to present their members as INSTRUMENTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. This could not be done while being unjustified. So Romans 7 is talking about what Paul experienced BEFORE justification.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[HailMary]

I do not understand the KJV translation.

NAB talks about being complete, which in a sense is perfect or complete.

However, I am Roman Catholic.

I will always believe the official teaching of Our Church.

If I have made a mistake, sorry!

Hey Jim, I don’t use the KJV (the only reason I did is because the NAB didn’t say “perfect”) but I did see the word “perfect” used in the RSV version:
etext.virginia.edu/etcbin/toccer-new2?id=RsvReve.sgm&images=images/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed&tag=public&part=3&division=div1

“Perfect” and “Complete” are interchangeable in this sense;
Just like “many” and “all” can be used interchangeably.
ie: “…which will be shed for all” (latin rite) vesus “…which will be shed for many” (Chaldean rite).

 

[HailMary]

Does hope contain faith?

Does faith contain hope?

Or, is it too mysterious for us to comprehend?

Faith, Hope, Love:

I’m not sure how to answer your question because it is a very good philosophical question but I can say that in Heaven, we have no need hope since it will be fulfilled.

Romans 8:24

For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?

(this verse should turn on a light bulb for anyone who believes that Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) since they effectively claim that heaven in theirs right now)

Therefore, if you are in Heaven, you see it and there will be no need of hope anymore.

The Faith part is a little more tricky depending on how your define faith.

But we can say that Love is the one virtue that you must always retain.

 

[Philthy]

**

red:

I agree that in large part some are talking past others

. In fact, I mentioned this long ago. I disagree that we are all talking past each other since many people have responded to direct questions posed by others. **
myfavoritemartin:

Which is it redbandito? are we or are we not talking past each other?

Myfavoritemartin -

It would appear that your current analytical skills and/or grammatical skills preclude you from reaching valid conclusions. There is not the slightest contradiction in the two statements offered here by Redbandito. In order to appreciate this you would have to recognize the difference between the word “ALL” and the word “SOME”. Are you familiar with these words and their meanings? If so you would realize that what was said was simply that SOME people are talking past each other but not ALL people are talking past each other. Hence your question “Which is it - are we talking past each other?” seems misplaced. If you meant to place emphasis on the “we” of your question in reference to yourself and Redbandito, then in order to communicate such a nuance you should have used “you and I” so that your meaning was clear.

 

[mikeledes]

Part 1

That sounds logical… except that the Apostle Paul corrected that kind of thinking in Romans chapter 7.

If the Apostle Paul couldn’t keep himself from sinning, I think it’s a little arrogant for you to say that sinless perfection for yourself is possible.

BA

Let me clarify domething and develop my point a little further. I have never claimed that I am sinless. What I am saying is that when I do sin, it is no one’s fault but my own and I am accountable for my actions. If we cannot overcome sin in Christ, bibleapologist, then God has lied to us in the verse from 1 Corinthians. Then there is temptation that can overtake us.

To be continued…

 

[Philthy]

If the Apostle Paul couldn’t keep himself from sinning, I think it’s a little arrogant for you to say that sinless perfection for yourself is possible.

BA

I find this completely illogical.
First, there is no arrogance whatsoever involved in claiming that it is possible for God to make someone sinless. None. What exists in that statement is faith in the word of God that every trial we face we are able to overcome by God’s grace(1Corinthians 10:13). No arrogance at all.
Second, it is not recorded that Paul did not achieve sinlessness prior to death, so your contention that “if Paul couldnt keep himself from sinning” is a worthless speculation.

 

[mikeledes]

Part 2

Now lets take a look at Romans 7. Let’s start with verses 5-6:

“For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we HAVE BEEN RELASED FROM THE LAW, having died to that by which we were bound, SO THAT WE SERVE IN NEWNESS OF THE SPIRIT and not in the oldness of the letter.”

Here he is contrasting the condition of man under the Law (i.e. dominated by sin and spiritually dead) and man under grace and in the Spirit (i.e. spiritually alive and able to serve God in the Spirit). This is important in order to understand Romans 7:14-25.

Romans 7:14-25 describes the condition of man under the Law. Paul speaks as if he were still under the Law to make his point. Man under the law is “unspiritual” (i.e. devoid of the Spirit) and hence under the dominion of sin (i.e. “sold into bondage to sin.”) Hence, Romans 7:14-25 cannot refer to the justified because Romans 6:5-7 states:

“For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection, knowing that our old self was crucified with Him, IN ORDER THAT THE BODY OF SIN MIGHT BE DONE AWAY WITH, so that we should NO LONGER BE SLAVES TO SIN; for he who has died is free from sin.”

He also says in verses 12-14:

“Therefore, do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of you body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. FOR SIN SHALL NOT BE MASTER OVER YOU< FOR YOU ARE NOT UNDER LAW BUT UNDER GRACE”

Romans 7:14-25 is the complete opposite of what Paul said about Christians in the previous verses. Here he is describing himself as “unspiritual” and “in bondage to sin.” He emphasized the power of this bondage to sin by saying in verse 20, “But I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer doing it, but sin which dwells in me.” Slavery is being dominated by another (i.e. sin) and thus not having the freedom to do what one really wants to do. So he cannot be describing a person who has received the Spirit. Rather, he is describing the condition of man under the law and their utter helplessness against the power of sin while they are still in the flesh. Is there hope?

Yes there is!! And that hope is in Jesus Christ. Hence the opening verses of Romans 8. Verses 2-4 states:

"For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus HAS SET YOU FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH. For what the Law COULD NOT DO,WEAK AS IT WAS THROUGH THE FLESH, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, SO THAT THE REQUIREMENT OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO DO NOT WALK ACCORDING TO THE FLESH BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT."

So the point of Romans 7 was to emphasize the helplesness of man, the weakness and inability of the Law to overcome the power of sin, and the absolute necessity of God’s mercy and intervention to liberate man from sin, and its eternal debt, and to empower them to serve Him in righteousness through the Holy Spirit. This was accomplished by the death of Christ on the Cross.

God Bless,
Michael