M
mikeledes
Guest
I also ask you to reread this post I wrote. I have to go. I may be online tomorrow, but I’m not sure.
God Bless,
Michael
- Status
God Bless,
Michael
R
Redbandito
Guest
I’m not exactly sure what you’re looking for here. I agree that God’s grace transforms us from our former ways.
See, I just don’t get that from this verse. In fact, I would say the exact opposite. It says “we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.” The usage of the word “if” shows this is a conditional statement. In other words, there is a chance that I won’t “hold firmly till the end the confidence (I) had at first.” And if I don’t, I don’t become a partaker of Christ. The words following the “if” are the condition to the words before the “if.” So, rather than guaranteeing perserverance, this verse seems to show us that there is a chance we will not persevere.
Again, I don’t exactly know what you are implying by referencing this verse. Perhaps you could explain what you think this means? Thanks.
Josh
R
Redbandito
Guest
Craig, I would say this merely begs the question. You assume that three very prominent verses cannot refer to those who are justified based on your interpretation of another verse. Is it not possible that your interpretation of 1 John is what is causing the conflict and not the three verses listed here? I mean Heb 6 states that they have “shared in the Holy Spirit.” Who is this referring to then? Certainly it must be someone who has been “born of water and Spirit.” If that’s the case, I am having a hard time rectifying your position of the Scriptures quoted and your explanations of them.
L
Linkowski
Guest
With regard to John 15…this person was not fruitful. From the parable of the sower, we can see that this person was not born again…the seed did not penetrate and produce fruit.
Luke 8:11-15 NAS95 11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God…14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity(John 15 - did not bear fruit). 15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
Those who are born of God will love others, hate sin, confess and believe on Christ, keep the commandments, love the brethren, walk in the Spirit, etc. This is all taught in scripture…
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
John 14:12 KJV 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Therefore, the person in John 15 did not lose their salvation. They did not receive the gospel into good ground, or submissive repentant heart. Therefore were not saved. We must trust Christ as Lord before receiving Him as Savior.
With regard to 1 John 5:4…this is very clear that if someone is born of God, they will overcome to the end - this is a very clear statement. In 2Peter 2:20-22 - those people were “overcome” by the world.
With regard to Hebrews 3:14…look at this again:
Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
You are reading the sentence wrong…we have become if we persevere…or, We will persevere IF we have become. It dos not say we will become if - it says we have become, if…therefore it is presenting perseverance as evidence of rebirth and not a condition.
In John 13:10 - Jesus pronounces them completely clean. But, they need foot washings regularly to keep fellowship - yet they are clean every whit…
John 13:10 KJV 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Here are a couple of “they were never saved to begin with verses”:
1 John 2:19 KJV 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
In Hebews 6, it says that they were enlightened…they had not received the Spirit but were illuminated by the ministry of the Spirit. Later in that passage it says this…
Hebrews 6:8-9 KJV 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
They did not bear fruit but briers and thorns - did not receive the Word into good ground. He was persuaded that he would see those things **that accompany salvation ** from others which are those things above, the fruits of the spirit, a hatred for sin, a love for God’s people, etc.
Also, after the warnings in Hebrews 10, he says this…
Hebrews 10:38-39 KJV 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
That is all I have for now. God Bless.
Luke 8:11-15 NAS95 11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God…14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity(John 15 - did not bear fruit). 15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
Those who are born of God will love others, hate sin, confess and believe on Christ, keep the commandments, love the brethren, walk in the Spirit, etc. This is all taught in scripture…
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
John 14:12 KJV 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Therefore, the person in John 15 did not lose their salvation. They did not receive the gospel into good ground, or submissive repentant heart. Therefore were not saved. We must trust Christ as Lord before receiving Him as Savior.
With regard to 1 John 5:4…this is very clear that if someone is born of God, they will overcome to the end - this is a very clear statement. In 2Peter 2:20-22 - those people were “overcome” by the world.
With regard to Hebrews 3:14…look at this again:
Hebrews 3:14 NAS95 14 For we **have become **partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
You are reading the sentence wrong…we have become if we persevere…or, We will persevere IF we have become. It dos not say we will become if - it says we have become, if…therefore it is presenting perseverance as evidence of rebirth and not a condition.
In John 13:10 - Jesus pronounces them completely clean. But, they need foot washings regularly to keep fellowship - yet they are clean every whit…
John 13:10 KJV 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Here are a couple of “they were never saved to begin with verses”:
1 John 2:19 KJV 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
In Hebews 6, it says that they were enlightened…they had not received the Spirit but were illuminated by the ministry of the Spirit. Later in that passage it says this…
Hebrews 6:8-9 KJV 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
They did not bear fruit but briers and thorns - did not receive the Word into good ground. He was persuaded that he would see those things **that accompany salvation ** from others which are those things above, the fruits of the spirit, a hatred for sin, a love for God’s people, etc.
Also, after the warnings in Hebrews 10, he says this…
Hebrews 10:38-39 KJV 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
That is all I have for now. God Bless.
L
Linkowski
Guest
I think one of the main differences is that I am trusting Christ for my perseverance and you are trusting you. Perseverance is all from God.
By the way, calling someone a heretic who is seeking the truth and willing to change to Catholicism if necessary is not a good practice - but I forgive you.
By the way, calling someone a heretic who is seeking the truth and willing to change to Catholicism if necessary is not a good practice - but I forgive you.
L
Linkowski
Guest
Here are the Council of Trent’s own words:
• If anyone says that by faith alone the sinner is justified, so as to mean that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification … let him be anathema (Trent, sess. 6, canon 9).
In light of this, what do we say about Father Cantalamessa?
Faith alone, not deeds, required for salvation, papal preacher tells pontiff
By Cindy Wooden
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Even those who spend their lives serving the church must recognize that faith alone will save them, the preacher of the papal household told Pope Benedict XVI and his closest aides.
“Christianity does not start with that which man must do to save himself, but with what God has done to save him,” Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa said in his Dec. 16 Advent meditation.
The preacher told the pope and top Vatican officials that they, like St. Paul, must avoid any temptation to think that the good works they have accomplished will guarantee their salvation.
“Gratuitous justification through faith in Christ is the heart” of St. Paul’s preaching “and it is a shame that this has been practically absent from the ordinary preaching of the church,” he said.
Father Cantalamessa said that the Protestant Reformation debate over the role of faith and works led the Catholic Church to focus so much on the need for the demonstration of faith in actions that it practically ignored the need for faith in the first place.
St. Paul, in his Letter to the Philippians, warned believers of the “mortal danger” of putting their own good works between them and Christ, as if the works would save them, Father Cantalamessa said.
Conversion to the fact that faith in Christ is the only means of salvation “is the conversion most needed by those who already are following Christ and have lived at the service of his church,” the Capuchin said.
“It is a special conversion that does not consist in abandoning the bad, but abandoning the good, in a way,” he said. “It means detaching oneself from everything one has done, repeating to oneself, ‘We are useless servants; we have done only what was required.’”
Father Cantalamessa told a familiar Italian story about the shepherds near Bethlehem going to visit the newborn Jesus, each of them trying to outdo the others with the beauty of the gifts they offered.
One poor shepherd had nothing and was ashamed.
“Mary could not figure out how to accept all the gifts, since she was holding the baby in her arms,” he said. “So, seeing the poor shepherd with his hands free, she handed Jesus to him.”
“Having his hands free was his fortune and it should be ours as well,” Father Cantalamessa said.
I guess we say, let him be accursed…
• If anyone says that by faith alone the sinner is justified, so as to mean that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification … let him be anathema (Trent, sess. 6, canon 9).
In light of this, what do we say about Father Cantalamessa?
Faith alone, not deeds, required for salvation, papal preacher tells pontiff
By Cindy Wooden
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Even those who spend their lives serving the church must recognize that faith alone will save them, the preacher of the papal household told Pope Benedict XVI and his closest aides.
“Christianity does not start with that which man must do to save himself, but with what God has done to save him,” Capuchin Father Raniero Cantalamessa said in his Dec. 16 Advent meditation.
The preacher told the pope and top Vatican officials that they, like St. Paul, must avoid any temptation to think that the good works they have accomplished will guarantee their salvation.
“Gratuitous justification through faith in Christ is the heart” of St. Paul’s preaching “and it is a shame that this has been practically absent from the ordinary preaching of the church,” he said.
Father Cantalamessa said that the Protestant Reformation debate over the role of faith and works led the Catholic Church to focus so much on the need for the demonstration of faith in actions that it practically ignored the need for faith in the first place.
St. Paul, in his Letter to the Philippians, warned believers of the “mortal danger” of putting their own good works between them and Christ, as if the works would save them, Father Cantalamessa said.
Conversion to the fact that faith in Christ is the only means of salvation “is the conversion most needed by those who already are following Christ and have lived at the service of his church,” the Capuchin said.
“It is a special conversion that does not consist in abandoning the bad, but abandoning the good, in a way,” he said. “It means detaching oneself from everything one has done, repeating to oneself, ‘We are useless servants; we have done only what was required.’”
Father Cantalamessa told a familiar Italian story about the shepherds near Bethlehem going to visit the newborn Jesus, each of them trying to outdo the others with the beauty of the gifts they offered.
One poor shepherd had nothing and was ashamed.
“Mary could not figure out how to accept all the gifts, since she was holding the baby in her arms,” he said. “So, seeing the poor shepherd with his hands free, she handed Jesus to him.”
“Having his hands free was his fortune and it should be ours as well,” Father Cantalamessa said.
I guess we say, let him be accursed…
L
Linkowski
Guest
Sorry, I am kind of on a roll here…about justification…First, Scripture presents justification as instantaneous, not gradual. Contrasting the proud Pharisee with the broken, repentant tax-gatherer who smote his breast and prayed humbly for divine mercy, Jesus Himself said that the tax-gatherer “went down to his house justified” (Luke 18:14). His justification was instantaneous, complete before he performed any work, based solely on his repentant faith. Jesus also said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life” (John 5:24). Eternal life is the present possession of all who believe—and by definition eternal life cannot be lost. The one who believes immediately passes from spiritual death to eternal life, because that person is instantaneously justified.
Romans 5:1 Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
A few verses later we read,
Rom 5:9 Having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him
Those verses put justification for the believer in the past tense, not the present or the future. Justification occurs in an instant. At the first moment of faith it is already an accomplished fact: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1).
Second, justification means the sinner is declared righteous, not actually made righteous. This goes hand in hand with the fact that justification is instantaneous. There is no process to be performed. Justification is a purely forensic reality, a declaration God makes about the sinner. Justification takes place in the court of God, not in the sinner’s soul. It is an objective fact, not a subjective phenomenon. It changes the sinner’s status, not his nature. Certainly at the moment of conversion the sinner’s nature is changed miraculously; old things pass away and all things are made new (2 Cor. 5:17). But the actual changes that occur in the believer have to do with regeneration and sanctification, not justification. Again, it is absolutely vital to keep these ideas separate. Regeneration is a spiritual quickening in which the sinner is born again with a new heart (Ezek. 36:26; John 3:3); sanctification is a lifelong process whereby the believer is conformed to the image of Christ (2 Cor. 3:18). But justification is an immediate decree, a divine “not guilty” verdict on behalf of the sinner. This is inherent in the meaning of the word justify. The word itself (dikaioō in the Greek) means “to declare righteous”; the sense it conveys is the exact opposite of the word condemn.
Third, the Bible teaches that justification means righteousness is imputed, not infused. Righteousness is “reckoned,” or credited to the account of those who believe (Rom. 4:3–25). They stand justified before God not because of their own righteousness, but because of a perfect righteousness outside themselves that is reckoned to them by faith (Phil. 3:9). Where does that perfect righteousness come from? It is God’s own righteousness (Rom. 10:3), and it is ours in the person of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:30; cf. Jer. 23:6; 33:16). We are united to Christ by faith—we are “in Christ”—and therefore accepted by God in His beloved Son (Eph. 1:6–7). Christ’s own perfect righteousness is credited to our personal account (Rom. 5:17, 19), just as the full guilt of our sin was imputed to Him. “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21). So once again we see that the ground on which we stand before God is the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us by faith, and not (as the Catholic Church teaches) the imperfect righteousness that is wrought by God’s grace infused into us. The point is that the only merit God accepts for salvation is that of Jesus Christ; nothing we can ever do could earn God’s favor or add anything to the merit of Christ.
Romans 5:1 Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
A few verses later we read,
Rom 5:9 Having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him
Those verses put justification for the believer in the past tense, not the present or the future. Justification occurs in an instant. At the first moment of faith it is already an accomplished fact: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1).
Second, justification means the sinner is declared righteous, not actually made righteous. This goes hand in hand with the fact that justification is instantaneous. There is no process to be performed. Justification is a purely forensic reality, a declaration God makes about the sinner. Justification takes place in the court of God, not in the sinner’s soul. It is an objective fact, not a subjective phenomenon. It changes the sinner’s status, not his nature. Certainly at the moment of conversion the sinner’s nature is changed miraculously; old things pass away and all things are made new (2 Cor. 5:17). But the actual changes that occur in the believer have to do with regeneration and sanctification, not justification. Again, it is absolutely vital to keep these ideas separate. Regeneration is a spiritual quickening in which the sinner is born again with a new heart (Ezek. 36:26; John 3:3); sanctification is a lifelong process whereby the believer is conformed to the image of Christ (2 Cor. 3:18). But justification is an immediate decree, a divine “not guilty” verdict on behalf of the sinner. This is inherent in the meaning of the word justify. The word itself (dikaioō in the Greek) means “to declare righteous”; the sense it conveys is the exact opposite of the word condemn.
Third, the Bible teaches that justification means righteousness is imputed, not infused. Righteousness is “reckoned,” or credited to the account of those who believe (Rom. 4:3–25). They stand justified before God not because of their own righteousness, but because of a perfect righteousness outside themselves that is reckoned to them by faith (Phil. 3:9). Where does that perfect righteousness come from? It is God’s own righteousness (Rom. 10:3), and it is ours in the person of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:30; cf. Jer. 23:6; 33:16). We are united to Christ by faith—we are “in Christ”—and therefore accepted by God in His beloved Son (Eph. 1:6–7). Christ’s own perfect righteousness is credited to our personal account (Rom. 5:17, 19), just as the full guilt of our sin was imputed to Him. “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Cor. 5:21). So once again we see that the ground on which we stand before God is the perfect righteousness of Christ imputed to us by faith, and not (as the Catholic Church teaches) the imperfect righteousness that is wrought by God’s grace infused into us. The point is that the only merit God accepts for salvation is that of Jesus Christ; nothing we can ever do could earn God’s favor or add anything to the merit of Christ.
L
Linkowski
Guest
If we removed the law from society, could you ever be charged with a crime? Certainly not…
Romans 7:1-6 NAS95 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; **but if her husband dies, she is released from the law **concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
How can sin be imputed to us (reckoned to our account)?
Romans 8:1 NAS95 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:33 KJV 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
If we are dead to the law, we cannot be charged with sin…passed from death to life, in Christ, born again, born of God, etc.
My concern about Catholicism is that, whenever I go to a persons door in personal evangelism, and they say I am Catholic…they claim that they are good and that they deserve heaven. My Grandmother says…if anyone is going to heaven it is me!! This reminds me of someone in the Bible…
Luke 18:10-12 KJV 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
She told me that she asked her priest about heaven - He said, believe in God and do good things? Was that scriptural?
God Help Us…Craig Linkowski
Titus 3:5-7 KJV 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 7:1-6 NAS95 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; **but if her husband dies, she is released from the law **concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
How can sin be imputed to us (reckoned to our account)?
Romans 8:1 NAS95 1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Romans 8:33 KJV 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
If we are dead to the law, we cannot be charged with sin…passed from death to life, in Christ, born again, born of God, etc.
My concern about Catholicism is that, whenever I go to a persons door in personal evangelism, and they say I am Catholic…they claim that they are good and that they deserve heaven. My Grandmother says…if anyone is going to heaven it is me!! This reminds me of someone in the Bible…
Luke 18:10-12 KJV 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
She told me that she asked her priest about heaven - He said, believe in God and do good things? Was that scriptural?
God Help Us…Craig Linkowski
Titus 3:5-7 KJV 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
L
Linkowski
Guest
What does sanctified mean in this case??? This would contradict Hebrews 10:14 just preceding that…
Hebrews 10:14 NAS95 14 For by one offering He has **perfected for all time **those who are sanctified.
Look at 1 Corinthians 7…
1 Corinthians 7:12-14 NAS95 12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
What do you think sanctified means here?
Be honest…you cannot get around the bold statements of 1 John…
1 John 3:9 NAS95 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In Hebrews 10, the person is sinning wilfully - if they were born of God, they would not…And they would overcome…
1 John 5:4 NAS95 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.
There is absolutely no way around these statements.
J
JonathanKinsman
Guest
It took me some time, Linkowski, but I found where you inserted your ‘off topic’ commentary.
If you continue to proselytize, then charity demands that you at least address the answers to your bizarre quasi-biblical assertions.
It’s bad enough with Simon (myfavoritemartin) who dodges most points, but you seem to bull your way headlong into any thread with your cafeteria approach to scripture regardless of topic.
J
JonathanKinsman
Guest
Linkowski:
Quit beating poor Father Cantalamessa over the head.
I went to the Vatican site which had his sermons (three) in translation and I read them. I then answered your accusations. I quoted him in context to your allegation. You never responded. You are quoting an article out of context from a sermon you never read.
You are being disingenuous and untruthful. It isn’t very charitable.
Quit beating poor Father Cantalamessa over the head.
I went to the Vatican site which had his sermons (three) in translation and I read them. I then answered your accusations. I quoted him in context to your allegation. You never responded. You are quoting an article out of context from a sermon you never read.
You are being disingenuous and untruthful. It isn’t very charitable.
L
Linkowski
Guest
The saga continues - instead of good answers I get criticism.
L
Linkowski
Guest
Sorry - I will read your Father Cantalamesa comments again and get back to you.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Actually, the Bible does present justification as a process just as it does salvation as a whole. Please consider:
Justification as an ongoing process
In Genesis, we read: “Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6)
Commenting on this passage, the Apostle Paul wrote:
“What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ “ (Romans 4:1-3)
If justification is a one-time event as many Protestants claim it to be, then Abraham could not receive justification either before or after this event in Genesis 15:6. However, the Bible states he did both.
First, consider this passage:
“By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8)
The subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith as can be seen from the opening verses: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.” (Hebrews 11:1-2) One is not commended for one’s faith unless it is saving faith. Therefore, the faith that Abraham is commended for in Hebrews 11:8 must be saving faith. But when did Abraham have this saving faith? It was “when called to go to a place he would later receive” and he “obeyed and went”.
The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4, three chapters before he is justified in Genesis 15:6. From this, we see that Abraham was justified before, years before, he was justified in Genesis 16:6.
But that’s not all. James tells us:
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.” (James 2:21-23 KJV)
The account of the testing of Abraham is found in Genesis 22 which is well after Genesis 15:6.
We see, therefore, that Abraham was justified on at least three different occasions: Genesis 12, when he left Haran in faith; in Genesis 15, when he believed God’s promise concerning his descendants; and in Genesis 22, when he offered his son, Isaac, on the altar. As a result, justification must be seen, not as a once-for-all event, but as a process that continues throughout the believer’s life.
*Adapted from *The Salvation Controversy by James Akin.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Ironically then, while one group of Protestants is touting “once saved always saved” another group is stating that you can never really be sure who has REAL faith until the end because it might turn out that one is “overcome” by the world at the last minute. I’m just curios, which of these groups is “rightly dividing the word of God” and which is wrongly dividing it? They can’t both be right yet both claim scripture as their sole rule of faith. So much for the doctrine of sola scriptura. But I digress.
Isn’t it ironic that when Catholics speak of mortal sin, many OSAS Protestants will begin screaming about how “wrong” Catholics are to hold that someone could live a good life according to the Word of God and still lose out on salvation because they are not in a state of grace due to mortal sin at the time of their death.
Yet, here is another Protestant declaring that if one is “overcome” by the world and does not perservere (in what? good works?) to the end, that is evidence that one does not have saving faith.
Our friend, Linkowski, is in a difficult situation for even he cannot know for sure right now if he REALLY has that saving faith or not, and he won’t know this side of heaven. He realizes that he, too, could be overcome at some point in the future…perhaps his time of testing has not yet come.
This is what drives the “good works” of Protestantsim - the evangelizing, the tithing, the missionary work, etc. They are seeking to do these things as evidence that they have saving faith that perserveres to the end.
This is the treadmill they are on - and then they condemn Catholics because they mistakenly believe we think we can earn our way into heaven! They attribute this false idea to Catholics because many of them are actually doing that very thing themselves!
+++
So, Linkowski, have you been saved, brother? And how can you know for sure?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Well, let’s examine the advice she received.
“Believe in God” = Faith
“do good things” = Works
What does the scripture say about these things?
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:14-24)
Faith without works is dead. A person is justified by what he does.
Yeah, it seems pretty much on target to me. :yup:
Granny appears to be in pretty good shape.
L
Linkowski
Guest
I have read your response again and have responded below
Linkowski;
Father Cantalamessa is even better in the original Italian. It is always good to read exactly what someone has written as opposed to a summary of it, regardless of the source. Catholic Online has his three part sermon translated into English. Reading it has been enlightening.
The paragraph following what was quoted in your posting (“Gratuitous justification by faith in Christ is the heart of this type of preaching, and it is a shame that this is, in turn, practically absent from ordinary preaching in the Church.”)
Note: ‘ordinary’ preaching means the homily at Mass, not what issues from a bishop, or council of bishops, or the Pope, or the Congregation for the Indoctrination of the Faith.
LINKOWSKI: And this explains why I was so lost as a Catholic. That is a shame you have to admit.
Here is the following paragraph in its entirety:
"In this respect something strange has occurred. To the objections raised by the reformers, the Council of Trent had given a Catholic response, that there is a place for faith and for good works, each one, it was understood, in its place. One is not saved by good works, but one cannot be saved without good works.
LINKOWSKI: I agree wholeheartedly!! Genuine born again believers will do God-inspired works…Faith without works is dead – genuine faith works…
Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
John 14:12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
FAITH FIRST/WORKS SECOND – ONE FLOWS FROM THE OTHER. YOU CANNOT HAVE FRUIT WITHOUT ROOTS AND FAITH IS THE ROOT/WORKS ARE THE FRUIT.
Nevertheless, from this moment in which Protestants insisted unilaterally on faith, Catholic preaching and spirituality ended up accepting the nearly exclusive and thankless work of calling to mind the need for good works and of one’s personal contribution to salvation. The result is that the great majority of Catholics have lived entire lives without having ever heard a direct announcement of gratuitous justification by faith, without too many ‘buts.’ "
What Father Cantalamessa said is common knowledge to those who read the Catechism and study their faith. But he is correct that the great majority of Catholics (and I daresay Protestants) have no idea what their faiths believe or how they differ.
Your sign off is gratuitous and gives the impression that “faith alone” is all you need as per Father Cantalamessa’s sermons. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Linkowski - Faith alone saves – but not faith that is alone…
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
When one truly believes on Christ and receives the grace of God, good works are inevitable.
I WILL REITERATE…IF I GO TO THE DOOR OF CATHOLIC FOLK, WHAT I GET IS A COMPLETE TRUST IN THE GOOD LIFE THAT THEY ARE LEADING – PRIDE…WHEREAS, I WILL GIVE YOU A GOD-GLORIFYING ANSWER – CHRIST PAID THE PRICE/GAVE HIS LIFE/THE JUST FOR THE UNJUST. HE PAID IT ALL…
Pax Christi
Linkowski;
Father Cantalamessa is even better in the original Italian. It is always good to read exactly what someone has written as opposed to a summary of it, regardless of the source. Catholic Online has his three part sermon translated into English. Reading it has been enlightening.
The paragraph following what was quoted in your posting (“Gratuitous justification by faith in Christ is the heart of this type of preaching, and it is a shame that this is, in turn, practically absent from ordinary preaching in the Church.”)
Note: ‘ordinary’ preaching means the homily at Mass, not what issues from a bishop, or council of bishops, or the Pope, or the Congregation for the Indoctrination of the Faith.
LINKOWSKI: And this explains why I was so lost as a Catholic. That is a shame you have to admit.
Here is the following paragraph in its entirety:
"In this respect something strange has occurred. To the objections raised by the reformers, the Council of Trent had given a Catholic response, that there is a place for faith and for good works, each one, it was understood, in its place. One is not saved by good works, but one cannot be saved without good works.
LINKOWSKI: I agree wholeheartedly!! Genuine born again believers will do God-inspired works…Faith without works is dead – genuine faith works…
Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
John 14:12 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
FAITH FIRST/WORKS SECOND – ONE FLOWS FROM THE OTHER. YOU CANNOT HAVE FRUIT WITHOUT ROOTS AND FAITH IS THE ROOT/WORKS ARE THE FRUIT.
Nevertheless, from this moment in which Protestants insisted unilaterally on faith, Catholic preaching and spirituality ended up accepting the nearly exclusive and thankless work of calling to mind the need for good works and of one’s personal contribution to salvation. The result is that the great majority of Catholics have lived entire lives without having ever heard a direct announcement of gratuitous justification by faith, without too many ‘buts.’ "
What Father Cantalamessa said is common knowledge to those who read the Catechism and study their faith. But he is correct that the great majority of Catholics (and I daresay Protestants) have no idea what their faiths believe or how they differ.
Your sign off is gratuitous and gives the impression that “faith alone” is all you need as per Father Cantalamessa’s sermons. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Linkowski - Faith alone saves – but not faith that is alone…
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
When one truly believes on Christ and receives the grace of God, good works are inevitable.
I WILL REITERATE…IF I GO TO THE DOOR OF CATHOLIC FOLK, WHAT I GET IS A COMPLETE TRUST IN THE GOOD LIFE THAT THEY ARE LEADING – PRIDE…WHEREAS, I WILL GIVE YOU A GOD-GLORIFYING ANSWER – CHRIST PAID THE PRICE/GAVE HIS LIFE/THE JUST FOR THE UNJUST. HE PAID IT ALL…
Pax Christi
J
JonathanKinsman
Guest
Craig:
You agree with me which contradicts your first post about the article.
You now play word games with the phrase “faith alone” by writing what it means (in your odd view) “but not faith that is alone.”
The crux of the article was a wake-up call to Catholics not to forget the grace of saving faith, it was not to applaud ‘Protestants’ for their OSAS “by faith alone” non-biblical, non-Christian traditional, views.
Dear friend, if one takes ‘pride’ in loving Christ, serving God and doing charitable works then yes, I am guilty of pride.
Is this a sin in your eyes?
Please take a tenth of the time you waste on the mental gymnastics of prooftexting and chapter-verse-phrase gotcha and apply it to reading a mainstream annotated Bible. Discuss your specific misunderstandings with the Apologetic Staff here at Catholic Answers.
If you are still confused then continue to read and pray for guidance. But you will come to nothing but spite and ill animus for other good people if you continue to think your personal view is the Key to the Kingdom of God.
I have learned a lot from these threads (notice how long I have been a member and the low number of postings I have?) by reading the comments and following the research. There are some great by birth and by choice Catholics contributing here and the point of these threads is not to proselytize but to sharpen our understanding of our Faith in all its rich history, contributions from countless cultures, symbols, rites and rituals.
It’s a heady mix, but hey, I’ve been married 32 years (I was a teenager then!) and I am still learning what love is and how (through the grace of God) it continues to grow and enrich our family’s lives.
So give it a rest. Take one idea at a time. If something bothers you, ask a direct question and take the answer apart. If you are not satisfied, explain why and listen again. You have the passion, I would like to see you with the purpose.
Pax Christi
You agree with me which contradicts your first post about the article.
You now play word games with the phrase “faith alone” by writing what it means (in your odd view) “but not faith that is alone.”
The crux of the article was a wake-up call to Catholics not to forget the grace of saving faith, it was not to applaud ‘Protestants’ for their OSAS “by faith alone” non-biblical, non-Christian traditional, views.
Dear friend, if one takes ‘pride’ in loving Christ, serving God and doing charitable works then yes, I am guilty of pride.
Is this a sin in your eyes?
Please take a tenth of the time you waste on the mental gymnastics of prooftexting and chapter-verse-phrase gotcha and apply it to reading a mainstream annotated Bible. Discuss your specific misunderstandings with the Apologetic Staff here at Catholic Answers.
If you are still confused then continue to read and pray for guidance. But you will come to nothing but spite and ill animus for other good people if you continue to think your personal view is the Key to the Kingdom of God.
I have learned a lot from these threads (notice how long I have been a member and the low number of postings I have?) by reading the comments and following the research. There are some great by birth and by choice Catholics contributing here and the point of these threads is not to proselytize but to sharpen our understanding of our Faith in all its rich history, contributions from countless cultures, symbols, rites and rituals.
It’s a heady mix, but hey, I’ve been married 32 years (I was a teenager then!) and I am still learning what love is and how (through the grace of God) it continues to grow and enrich our family’s lives.
So give it a rest. Take one idea at a time. If something bothers you, ask a direct question and take the answer apart. If you are not satisfied, explain why and listen again. You have the passion, I would like to see you with the purpose.
Pax Christi
J
Jim_Baur
Guest
According to faith alone, does weak faith save?
According to faith alone, does dead faith save?
Also, I John 3: 7 Children, let no one decieve you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous.
I am most confident righteousness includes love and faith, to name just two aspects or parts (I Thess. 5: 8; Eph 6: 14).
According to faith alone, does dead faith save?
Also, I John 3: 7 Children, let no one decieve you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous.
I am most confident righteousness includes love and faith, to name just two aspects or parts (I Thess. 5: 8; Eph 6: 14).
- Status