Nursing Mothers

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Catholicforlife:

Tell your daughter to check the laws in her state. In a lot states, it is illegal to tell a nursing mom not to nurse.

Its not a right issue?

I think you are off on this “law”.

I am not against you nursing. I am against you nursing in the pews during the Liturgy. I guess next time I need to go to the bathroom then it would be ok to do so in the pew?

I know this is going to extremes but it is a natural bodily function. By the logic of the “pro-breastfeeding during the Liturgy” crowd here, its not my problem if you are bothered by this.

I find it interesting that no one really wishes to address the issues of it being a distraction (other than to blame the distracted person) or an occasion of sin to others.

 

[MamaAtHome]

No, she is not off on the law. ncsl.org/programs/health/breast50.htm

I would like to say I’m suprised to read so many opposed to mothers feeding their babies during mass, but, just last week, there were those opposed to mothers even taking their children to mass, so, I’m not at all suprised.

I have nursed all of my kids (I am nursing one as I type this! ) I have nursed all of them during mass, in the front pew even, during TLM.

 

[darcee]

ByzCath:

There is a time and place for everything. You would not change a dirty diaper in the pew (this name would really fit if you did though) during the Liturgy.

Please tell me why you think it is the appropriate time to breast feed during the Liturgy.

Try to avoid the strawmen… no one is screaming and no one is claiming perfection.

Those of you who are offended by a mother nursing her child and compare it to things like changing a tampon or changing a diaper are the ones seeking to vilify others and acting without charity or even a semblance of good manners. Not those of us who simply wish to care for our children in the most unobtrusive way possible without worrying that some one is staring at them, making rude comments or thinking licentious thoughts are not the ones tossing around such disgusting simalies…

But I get the feeling that some people would be offended by the very thought of a nursling at the breast at mass. This thread isn’t about the reality of women who nurse in mass but the specter of some exagerated feminist radical halfway disrobing. Which I would totally agree would be inapporpriate, but those of us who nurse in mass and who are posting here are NOT those women. We are the quiet women sitting in the middle of half a dozen children with our husbands and a nursing shawl over one shoulder.

If you can’t see what is happening under a blanket, shawl or baggy shirt what is the problem? Mass is a long time to a baby when that is when a baby needs to eat or be comforted.

It is appropriate to breast feed during the Liturgy because it is no different morally or socially then giving a baby a pacifier (We could argue health and nutrition but that is a different thread). The question is easily turned round, if you think that a baby sucking on a pacifier or bottle is ok in mass what is the problem with them nursing?

-D

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

Where are all these comparisons coming from??? If one thinks nursing a baby is the same as going to the bathroom (or other things I won’t repeat again ) then yes you will always have a problem with breastfeeding during Mass. And there is no point for further discussion. Any decent debate has to start from some common ground and it seems like there is none here.

 

[darcee]

IrenkaJMJ:

Any decent debate has to start from some common ground and it seems like there is none here.

Irenka,

You are so right. I am done with this as well. It has gone well beyond any sane objection to immodest display.

-D

 

[BLB_Oregon]

loyola rambler:

Mary may have nursed Jesus, but she never would have done it in the temple on a holy day…in a room full of strangers.

Apples and oranges. Mary was Jewish. During any sort of service, she wouldn’t have been allowed to be seen by any men, including Joseph. It is highly unlikely she was even there for the actual circumcision.

Nursing is a legitimate way to feed a child, and nothing to be ashamed of. A woman ought to be able to nurse quietly and discreetly anywhere where it would be appropriate to give an infant a bottle. (Really, would it kill the guys to be reminded what breasts are for?) As far as whether there are men that might be distracted by that… if you want a world with no distractions, think burqas. An don’t talk (you might have a sexy voice) or look a man in the eyes…

While Muslim women are to be admired for the lengths they are willing to go to keep their men from distraction, I think maybe our men can learn to ignore all but the truly immodest.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

MamaAtHome:

No, she is not off on the law.

Actually she is off on the law.

The law is against not allowing a woman to nurse in a public location (this is only in 20 states by the way) and without reading the various laws we do not see if there are any exceptions.

There is no law against telling someone to not do it.

And to darcee.

darcee:

Try to avoid the strawmen… no one is screaming and no one is claiming perfection.

I do not think we are creating strawmen, we are using the same logic used to defend the practice. It has been said that this is a natural function and it doesn’t offend God, the same goes for the examples we have used.

But you are absolutely correct. If we do not know what is going on, then how could we be distracted/offended by it. If we do not know it is occuring then it could not even be an occasion of sin for us.

But the thread was started by someone saying that someone approached their daughter and said that this was inappropriate, so if someone knows what is going on then I would say that the person in question was not being discreate.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

IrenkaJMJ:

Where are all these comparisons coming from??? If one thinks nursing a baby is the same as going to the bathroom (or other things I won’t repeat again ) then yes you will always have a problem with breastfeeding during Mass. And there is no point for further discussion. Any decent debate has to start from some common ground and it seems like there is none here.

And common ground was attempted and ignored.

I commented that it is not appropriate from me to bring food from McDonalds and to eat it during the Liturgy.

BLB_Oregon:

Nursing is a legitimate way to feed a child, and nothing to be ashamed of. A woman ought to be able to nurse quietly and discreetly anywhere where it would be appropriate to give an infant a bottle. (Really, would it kill the guys to be reminded what breasts are for?) As far as whether there are men that might be distracted by that… if you want a world with no distractions, think burqas. An don’t talk (you might have a sexy voice) or look a man in the eyes…

Thats right, it is a legitimate way to feed a child, what I question is if it is proper to feed a child during the Liturgy.

And here we go again, lets blame the person who gets distracted by it and lets ignore our own responsibility in creating occasions of sin for others.

 

[jess7396]

ByzCath:

But the thread was started by someone saying that someone approached their daughter and said that this was inappropriate, so if someone knows what is going on then I would say that the person in question was not being discreate.

Could it be that people saw a blanket over her shoulder, then after the baby was done, they noticed a little milk dribble from his mouth? Maybe that is how they knew the baby had nursed? It seems many on here would be offended just to know “it” was happening.

Is there anyone willing to admit that if they cannot see any exposed breast, there is nothing to be offended by?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

jess7396:

Could it be that people saw a blanket over her shoulder, then after the baby was done, they noticed a little milk dribble from his mouth? Maybe that is how they knew the baby had nursed? It seems many on here would be offended just to know “it” was happening.

Could be. This is one of the problems with places such as this. We can not really know the whole story.

Is there anyone willing to admit that if they cannot see any exposed breast, there is nothing to be offended by?

I can admit that, I can even admit that if I see an exposed breast I might not be “offended”. I would be distracted though.

My main concern with this is how it can be an occasion of sin for someone.

I feel we are responsible for our actions when they can be an occasion of sin for others.

I think I have stated my point here and think it best that I refrain from further replies unless someone addresses me directly.

I would like to apologize to everyone as I think I may have gotten a bit carried away and may have offended others. But I am not swayed by any of the arguments for this as they all seem to be centered on the individual doing the breastfeeding without a care for how others may perceive it.

 

[Anne_Carmel]

Please direct yourselves back to the original topic and remember your charity in your posts. If the discussion can not remain civil, the thread will be closed.

 

[daniellet]

I’m going to address this post quote by quote because I think we can have a real dialogue here. I truly and genuinely want to be charitable and I don’t seek to offend anyone by nursing my baby in mass. I want to understand where you are coming from, because thus far in this thread I really haven’t understood the true *why *for the opposing point of view here.

ByzCath:

I can admit that, I can even admit that if I see an exposed breast I might not be “offended”. I would be distracted though.

But can we really avoid minor distractions in Mass altogether? I can think of many minor distractions and I don’t usually hold them against the “offender”.

ByzCath:

I feel we are responsible for our actions when they can be an occasion of sin for others.

Let’s really delve into this… I don’t think any nursing mom wants to cause others to sin. But what sin will be caused by the sight of a mom nursing her baby? I have always thought that if nursing were widespread it would have a positive affect on the virtue of others and combat the “culture of death”. Is it because you think people might think about sex when they think about breastfeeding? I really don’t think that is the case… breastfeeding seems to be a very *unsexy *(though certainly feminine) act to me. One of the reasons I posted the breastfeeding paintings in the other thread was to get people to examine how they felt seeing Our Mother breastfeed… what does nursing a baby truly represent?

Continued in next post…

 

[BLB_Oregon]

ByzCath:

Thats right, it is a legitimate way to feed a child, what I question is if it is proper to feed a child during the Liturgy.

And here we go again, lets blame the person who gets distracted by it and lets ignore our own responsibility in creating occasions of sin for others.

It is incumbent upon the mother to be discreet. That presumes that she’s not feeding a child who doesn’t need to be fed and that she is not choosing to sit where she couldn’t be missed if the person tried or otherwise nursing in a way that might amount to exhibitionism. For instance, I nursed twins, and they normally nursed simultaneously. Seeing a woman try that would probably be just too fascinating to ignore, whether you found it titilating or not. Doing that discreetly in church would be some feat.

Still, young infants are not always predictable in their needs. When it is possible to nurse modestly and discreetly, it shouldn’t be discouraged out of hand. We should welcome everyone, including nursing mothers and their infants, whenever there is a practical way to do it. The mother’s responsibility to respect the liturgy should not include absenting herself when that is really not necessary. We have an obligation to be hospitable, too…especially if we keep in mind the large fraction of their lives some Catholic women will be finding themselves nursing!

Yes, modesty is our responsibility, as a way of reducing the near occasion of sin for others. The question is how modest we are responsible to be. There is a continuum between no modesty at all and just putting all the women behind a screen as the Orthodox Jews do. My point is that nursing is not immodest, per se, and should not be treated as such.

 

[daniellet]

ByzCath:

But I am not swayed by any of the arguments for this as they all seem to be centered on the individual doing the breastfeeding without a care for how others may perceive it.

I don’t think this is about the individual doing the breastfeeding. This is about the individual human being receiving the breastfeeding. I’ve been wondering today why this thread has me so riled up. I think the reason is because I work with breastfeeding mothers and am very familiar with the physiology of breastfeeding. I am always so discouraged that so few women succeed at breastfeeding because I know that so many mothers, babies and society itself is really missing out on something important. (Please don’t crucify me, I know there are women here who weren’t able to breastfeed and I’m not condemning you.) Frequent breastfeeding **at the breast **and the avoidance of artificial nipples and pacifiers is vitally important, particularly in the early months, to establishing and maintaining an adequate milk supply.

But this is about so much more than feeding, this is about nurturing. I just can’t understand why people are offended by a mother nurturing her baby.

 

[renee1258]

I’m having a hard time believe that there are Catholics that are holding up a newborn to the standards of an older school age child. No babies can’t wait for food, they are incapable of realizing that they are celebrating Mass. It isn’t mere comfort, it is needed nourishment when they are hungry.

Babies also don’t realize they are at Mass when they poop their pants during the Mass either. My dear son did a blow out that came out of his diaper and all over my pants. Now that’s DISCTRACTING. I was mortified, and didn’t go up to communion and waited until everyone left.

I never realize how horrible it was if I gave my 18 month old cheerios and juice during Mass. My daughter is not 2 1/2 and she has a snank and potty before we go.

 

[IrenkaJMJ]

daniellet:

I don’t think this is about the individual doing the breastfeeding. This is about the individual human being receiving the breastfeeding. I’ve been wondering today why this thread has me so riled up. I think the reason is because I work with breastfeeding mothers and am very familiar with the physiology of breastfeeding. I am always so discouraged that so few women succeed at breastfeeding because I know that so many mothers, babies and society itself is really missing out on something important. (Please don’t crucify me, I know there are women here who weren’t able to breastfeed and I’m not condemning you.) Frequent breastfeeding **at the breast **and the avoidance of artificial nipples and pacifiers is vitally important, particularly in the early months, to establishing and maintaining an adequate milk supply.

But this is about so much more than feeding, this is about nurturing. I just can’t understand why people are offended by a mother nurturing her baby.

Do you think it’s because it’s a bodily fluid? I mean all the comparisons that disturbed me were “other” bodily fluids(going to the bathroom, etc…). Is that the hurdle people can’t get over?
Or is it because our culture, society, whatever, has sexualized the breast so much? I know alot of people are bothered by public nursing because of how they were taught. My husband is a strong supporter now, but it wasn’t always so. Of course I understood why when my MIL told me that she always thought breastfeeding was disgusting!

 

[mercygate]

IrenkaJMJ:

my MIL told me that she always thought breastfeeding was disgusting!

OK. I’m as prissy as you get and never did it in Church (in the pew, that is) but disgusting? That is REALLY sad. Oh, and when a mother is nursing in a relatively “private” place, like the reconciliation room (covered, of course), and somebody walks in on her, I consider it really that person’s problem if they find it unsettling.

 

[Catholicforlife]

If an adult brought McDonalds in church, they would not be observing the one hour fast. Any type of eating for any adult is not acceptable. My babies do not and should not have to fast. I have seen many toddlers eating crackers and such in mass. If my newborn could eat a cracker and be happy, I would give him one! That isn’t the way newborns work. They need and deserve to be feed.
how am I giving someone else the occasion to sin if I am completely covered? It seems to me that the perversion would be on their part, being overly concerned with covered female parts. If a woman has large breasts, and they are modestly covered and you are distracted by it, it is hardly the woman’s fault. I think the same applies.
My third child is due in 2005 and if this kid is screaming his head off to be nursed, I am not going to deny him because a guy sitting 4 rows over is a little too worried about what is going on under my blanket. It isn’t about his rights, my rights, it is about this little life I have been given from God. It is my duty to take care of him the best way I can. If I had to step on someones toes to get to my child to prevent him from being hurt, I would do it. Is that fair to the persons whose toes are being crushed, no. But I have to take care of my child. His life comes first.

 

[renee1258]

Someone’s mere annoyance is more important then a baby being fed? How can you win a pro-life argument with that type of thinking?

This really is a non-issue. I don’t think anyone is being pro-breast feeding. A mother is entitled to bottle feed her baby at Mass also. If I didn’t have snacks for my children under the age of two, or appropriate QUIET religious toys/books we wouldn’t get though the hour.

I’m not trying to be smart, but I’m bfing as I type this.

 

[loyola_rambler]

renee1258:

Someone’s mere annoyance is more important then a baby being fed? How can you win a pro-life argument with that type of thinking?

This really is a non-issue. I don’t think anyone is being pro-breast feeding. A mother is entitled to bottle feed her baby at Mass also. If I didn’t have snacks for my children under the age of two, or appropriate QUIET religious toys/books we wouldn’t get though the hour.

I’m not trying to be smart, but I’m bfing as I type this.

The point that keeps getting put aside by all the emotion is that 1. the baby can very well be breastfed during the time the mass is said…by going to a quiet more private place and that 2. the rest of the congregation doesn’t have to be distracted if a woman uses good manners and common courtesy by stepping to the back of the church while 3. still observing her obligation to mass and caring for her child without 4. disrupting, distracting or initiating conflict within the congregation.

The whole idea that a woman MUST breastfeed in the pews while mass is being said is the conflict…not whether the baby has a right to eat nor whether she has a right to feed the baby. I breastfed 4 babies…and never once in the pews during mass. I don’t care how many women think they’re discreet about it, they’re NOT all that discreet. Many women do not use a blanket to cover themselves and many women have no problem exposing themselves. While SOME of you may think yourselves pros at breastfeeding, the reality is that most women aren’t as skillful as those portrayed here. And if we’re only worried about the woman 3 pews up and over to the right, that’s one thing. But the fact that she’s in the front of the church and not excusing herself is poor judgment. And if I’m noticing from wherever, then what about all the people between us? God will love you just as much from the cry room or the vestibule…and the rest of the congregation won’t be disrupted or distracted. Your rights are met and our rights are met. Why the resistence to good manners and common courtesy?