Obama's day: National Prayer Breakfast

[7_Sorrows]

Community organizer…stir up the masses…that’s O

Right. Community divider might be more fitting.

 

[estesbob]

I didn’t hear anything from Obama that indicated he condoned ISIS and its actions. What I did hear was our need to look within ourselves.

Why?

 

[PeopleB4Things]

Congratulations, you are trying to live up to the faith as much as the rest of us. However, your moral equivalence framework is found wanting.

Not my framework. Like I said… I’m no sociologist. Just recounting your argument that sex abuse occurs at the same rate in the Catholic Church as in the secular population as well as in other faiths. The reason why our teachings offer no more of a safe guard against abuse than what we see in people of no or different religious training is above my pay grade. Over 6000 US priests who invested so much in their own religious education, who were taught, vetted and chosen by church leaders, who were touched by the grace of Holy Spirit in Holy Orders, ended up raping us, our children. When that level of religious immersion cannot mitigate in any measurable amount the amount of abuse in our Church, we need to re-evaluate what we’re doing.

 

[Personanongrata]

From the link.

He clearly has no understanding of history. About all the nuns and priests who came to America to educate Native Americans. Who built schools and hospitals for Native Americans. How the Church condemned slavery and desegregation in this country. How nuns in the St. Louis area taught black children on islands in the Mississippi River because it was illegal to do so in the states of MO and IL.

CLUELESS.

Nuns teaching a few black kids DOES NOT make the Jim Crow comment by the President any less true. All you have to do is talk to a few who lived during that era.

Helping to educate Native Americans AFTER taking their land is not all that noble either.

 

[sps49]

Not my framework. Like I said… I’m no sociologist. Just recounting your argument that sex abuse occurs at the same rate in the Catholic Church as in the secular population as well as in other faiths. The reason why our teachings offer no more of a safe guard against abuse than what we see in people of no or different religious training is above my pay grade. Over 6000 US priests who invested so much in their own religious education, who were taught, vetted and chosen by church leaders, who were touched by the grace of Holy Spirit in Holy Orders, ended up raping us, our children. When that level of religious immersion cannot mitigate in any measurable amount the amount of abuse in our Church, we need to re-evaluate what we’re doing.

It is above your paygrade, indicating that you do not understand what mechanism is at work. You then say we need to re-evaluate what we are doing, which implies that you believe that a solution may be arrived at. One wonders what you have in mind.

There is nothing wrong with our faith or teaching. What you are describing is concupiscence, mental illness and free will. Which would you prefer to work on first? I understand that you have either been directly or indirectly affected by this issue, and I can say that I relate. However, that does not justify abandoning the teaching of our faith by decreeing that what we have is not good enough because it did not meet your expectations.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Crusades met every criteria of just war doctrine.

Not many people see the Fourth Crusade as a just war.

 

[Tomdstone]

Over 6000 US priests who invested so much in their own religious education, who were taught, vetted and chosen by church leaders, who were touched by the grace of Holy Spirit in Holy Orders, ended up raping us, our children. When that level of religious immersion cannot mitigate in any measurable amount the amount of abuse in our Church, we need to re-evaluate what we’re doing.

Is 6000 the actual number? It seems quite high.

 

[Darryl1958]

In my mind, perhaps the worst part of Obama’s citation of the Crusades is that it affirms an entirely mistaken belief on that part of the Muslim world that’s Arabic. The Crusades were initiated at a time when the Turks were already destroying the vaunted Arab “Caliphate”. Ultimately, Turkic groups finished it off entirely and sent the Arab world into a desolate state from which it has never fully recovered.

It’s also true that the dying Fatimid caliphate had long allowed Christians access to the holy places and did not harm or harass Christian visitors or natives. It allowed Christian shrines and churches to operate as well as religious orders that tended to Christian pilgrims. Had the Seljuk Turks not seized the area, the Crusades would almost certainly never have happened. The Seljuks were cruel to Christian pilgrims and Arab Muslims and Christians alike.

And so, Obama picked the exactly wrong story to affirm; one that is a slander on Christians and which actually supports the idea that the cruel side of Islam (Seljuks yesterday, ISIS today) has a certain legitimacy because “Crusaders” are a never-to-be-forgotten threat to Arab Muslims.

That is my understanding of the history too.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Right. Community divider might be more fitting.

Indeed!

 

[Jeanne_S]

**

I didn’t hear anything from Obama that indicated he condoned ISIS and its actions. What I did hear was our need to look within ourselves.

Baloney!

 

[PeopleB4Things]

Is 6000 the actual number? It seems quite high.

As of March 28, 2014, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) has counted 6,427 clerics accused in the period 1950-2013 of sexually abusing minors. The USCCB has counted 17,259 victims who have alleged that they were abused as minors by priests. The USCCB totals omit persons who made allegations in 2003 for some reason. These are US numbers and do not include the totality of abuse that took place throughout the church worldwide.

This of course does not include victims who never came forward and abusers who were never caught. Some can’t bring themselves to come forward out of shame. Some have already passed on. This 6000 number also does not include those in the priesthood, religious orders and Catholic lay people who knew or suspected something but never did anything to stop it. The true number of US Catholics who abetted this abuse is far bigger than we’ll ever know. 6000? Think bigger.

 

[7_Sorrows]

As of March 28, 2014, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) has counted 6,427 clerics accused in the period 1950-2013 of sexually abusing minors. The USCCB has counted 17,259 victims who have alleged that they were abused as minors by priests. The USCCB totals omit persons who made allegations in 2003 for some reason. These are US numbers and do not include the totality of abuse that took place throughout the church worldwide.

This of course does not include victims who never came forward and abusers who were never caught. Some can’t bring themselves to come forward out of shame. Some have already passed on. This 6000 number also does not include those in the priesthood, religious orders and Catholic lay people who knew or suspected something but never did anything to stop it. The true number of US Catholics who abetted this abuse is far bigger than we’ll ever know. 6000? Think bigger.

Why are you so fixated on the priest sex abuse scandal? This thread is about the national prayer breakfast. Maybe you can start your own thread on the topic you seem to be focusing so much time on.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

It is above your paygrade, indicating that you do not understand what mechanism is at work. You then say we need to re-evaluate what we are doing, which implies that you believe that a solution may be arrived at. One wonders what you have in mind.

There is nothing wrong with our faith or teaching. What you are describing is concupiscence, mental illness and free will. Which would you prefer to work on first? I understand that you have either been directly or indirectly affected by this issue, and I can say that I relate. However, that does not justify abandoning the teaching of our faith by decreeing that what we have is not good enough because it did not meet your expectations.

I’ve never advocated abandoning our church’s teachings. I am after all an RE teacher. But I’m sympathetic when people point out that for all the intensive religious, moral and ethical training/counseling our priests received, it made no difference in the outcome. I do not know the reason for the failure. But because we don’t have a solution, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t acknowledge, research, highlight and put a lot of effort in determining our points of failure on this. We owe it to every child who suffered the pain and shame of rape in our rectories, in our pews, in our sacristies. It’s the only way we can figure this out. Finding the cause and correcting the problem is my expectation, my hope. And I would venture to say that most of my fellow parishioners feel that we all need to be better than good enough when it comes to this particular issue.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

Why are you so fixated on the priest sex abuse scandal? This thread is about the national prayer breakfast. Maybe you can start your own thread on the topic you seem to be focusing so much time on.

I said in my first post in this thread that we Catholics have a long history of rape, killing, torture, etc and I referenced the Inquisition, the Crusades and the abuse of thousands of US children at the hands of thousands of US Catholic leaders. My posts about the abuse were responses to comments made by others just as this comment is a response to you.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

I said in my first post in this thread that we Catholics have a long history of rape, killing, torture, etc and I referenced the Inquisition, the Crusades (like Pres Obama) and the abuse of thousands of US children at the hands of thousands of US Catholic leaders. My posts about the abuse were responses to comments made by others just as this comment is a response to you.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

I said in my first post in this thread that we Catholics have a long history of rape, killing, torture, etc and I referenced the Inquisition, the Crusades (like Pres Obama) and the abuse of thousands of US children at the hands of thousands of US Catholic leaders. My posts about the abuse were responses to comments made by others just as this comment is a response to you.

My comments about the sex abuse scandal stemmed from my initial post where I agreed with the President’s reminder of past horrific actions of the Catholic Church. We do have a pretty bad track record that included the immoral actions of priest predators and the subsequent cover up. My other posts were responses just like this comment is a response to you.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Not my framework. Like I said… I’m no sociologist. Just recounting your argument that sex abuse occurs at the same rate in the Catholic Church as in the secular population as well as in other faiths. The reason why our teachings offer no more of a safe guard against abuse than what we see in people of no or different religious training is above my pay grade. Over 6000 US priests who invested so much in their own religious education, who were taught, vetted and chosen by church leaders, who were touched by the grace of Holy Spirit in Holy Orders, ended up raping us, our children. When that level of religious immersion cannot mitigate in any measurable amount the amount of abuse in our Church, we need to re-evaluate what we’re doing.

It was evaluated and solved…homosexuals are not admitted into Seminaries.

"Regarding the Document of the Congregation for Catholic Education, 'Instruction concerning the criteria for the discernment of vocations with regard to persons with homosexual tendencies in view of their admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders', published by the same Dicastery on November 4, 2005, and following numerous requests of clarification made to the Apostolic See, it is clarified that the dispositions contained in said Instruction are valid for all the Formation Houses for the priesthood, including the ones which are linked to the Dicasteries for Oriental Churches [Seminaries of Eastern Churches], for the Evangelization of Peoples [Seminaries in Mission areas], and for the Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life [Seminaries of Religious Orders].

"The Supreme Pontiff approved this clarification on the 8th of April of the year of the Lord of 2008."

Published in today’s edition of L’Osservatore Romano

I am after all an RE teacher.

As an RE teacher I would think you should be aware of these things and would defend the Church accordingly.

Also things like the Inquisition, Crusades and the child abuse scandal do not justify the burning alive of a pilot. Wrongs do not make rights.

 

[Darryl1958]

There is no one who is as deeply contemptuous and as angry and incensed by the priestly abuse as other Catholics

Nobody has any kind words or thoughts or love for the perpetrators of these crimes. No Catholic identifies with these priest and enabling bishops as being one of ‘us’.

Nobody is more interested in ensuring that such abuses do not take place again as other Catholics. People have left the Church over these things, and rightly so.

Catholics do not identify sexual abuse of children with Catholicis. We feel no guilt nor self-loathing nor repentance for these crimes, because these crimes were the works of parasites who fed off of our trust.

For Obama or anyone to in any way try to mitigate the great evil that Islamists bring upon the world by inciting guilt in Catholics for parasites destroying our children, they are way off base. It is a sick comparison to make actually.

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

There is no one who is as deeply contemptuous and as angry and incensed by the priestly abuse as other Catholics

Nobody has any kind words or thoughts or love for the perpetrators of these crimes. No Catholic identifies with these priest and enabling bishops as being one of ‘us’.

Nobody is more interested in ensuring that such abuses do not take place again as other Catholics. People have left the Church over these things, and rightly so.

Catholics do not identify sexual abuse of children with Catholicis. We feel no guilt nor self-loathing nor repentance for these crimes, because these crimes were the works of parasites who fed off of our trust.

For Obama or anyone to in any way try to mitigate the great evil that Islamists bring upon the world by inciting guilt in Catholics for parasites destroying our children, they are way off base. It is a sick comparison to make actually.

:bowdown:

 

[7_Sorrows]

There is no one who is as deeply contemptuous and as angry and incensed by the priestly abuse as other Catholics

Nobody has any kind words or thoughts or love for the perpetrators of these crimes. No Catholic identifies with these priest and enabling bishops as being one of ‘us’.

Nobody is more interested in ensuring that such abuses do not take place again as other Catholics. People have left the Church over these things, and rightly so.

Catholics do not identify sexual abuse of children with Catholicis. We feel no guilt nor self-loathing nor repentance for these crimes, because these crimes were the works of parasites who fed off of our trust.

For Obama or anyone to in any way try to mitigate the great evil that Islamists bring upon the world by inciting guilt in Catholics for parasites destroying our children, they are way off base. It is a sick comparison to make actually.

Very well said!