On the Tiber's shore

[MiserereMei]

My guess is that, because I left the Church and got married outside the Church, I need proof that I was Baptized/Confirmed Catholic, as well as proof of my marriage. I haven’t found a similar application for my diocese, but I found an application for radical sanation from another diocese online that requires such documentation.

My understanding is that, because radical sanation (insert proper specific terminology here) declares the marriage to have been a true marriage from the beginning, there has to be an equivalent of the documents that would have been submitted if I had gotten married properly in the Church in the first place.

I hope that makes sense. I only barely understand it myself. I am still refamiliarizing myself with Catholic theology (canon law?). Radical sanation isn’t a concept in Lutheran theology, which, as you know, is the background of my formal theological education.

 

[OddBird]

This is what I have been told as well. I’ll need proof I was baptized as a Catholic (not confirmed as I was confirmed in a Protestant church) not only for confirmation, but for radical sanation too.

 

[MiserereMei]

I must confess there were a few alarm bells that went off for me at Mass yesterday afternoon.

At the end of Mass, someone came up to talk about a diocesan fundraiser. After saying that the Bishop might use the parish’s performance in the fundraiser in a consideration to close the parish, he spent most of his time talking about the Our Lady of America apparition and devotion. A prayer from which he claimed was more effective than the St Michael prayer, because “the Devil is real and fears Mary more than the Tabernacle”.

I had two reactions to this:

1. Perhaps it’s some lingering Lutheran sentiment, but the sentence I quoted shocked me and struck me as going too far. To denigrate the Tabernacle seems to be to denigrate he who is housed within it.
2. I was thankful that my wife wasn’t with me, as the speaker’s speech would have confirmed for her her worst suspicions about the Church.

I should note: Father remained silent until the end, when he said “Thank you Mr. ____. Now, let us pray together our prayer to St. Michael the Archangel.”

I just wonder if I am missing something. It also made me realize even more that eventually having my wife accompany me to Mass is going to be like navigating a minefield. I can imagine some future conversation where I say: “Ehhhh… How about you come with me next week, dear?”

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Our Lady of America apparition

Sorry you experienced that. If you convert it wont be the last time it happens, sadly enough.

There are some within the Church that truly do not know the difference between the deposit of faith and approved/not-yet-approved private revelation. And they run wild with this stuff. Any apparition or popular piety like scapulars take precedent over Sacred Scripture in their eyes. It’s mind boggling and frustrating just seeing it. We have many Catholics who are not properly formed and probably have no business standing at the podium and inserting their opinions.

I’m sure you are aware, but for the benefit of the reader, I will explain that approved private revelation is something the Church says is okay to believe or reject. For example, I reject our Lady of Fatima. I accept our Lady of Lourdes. I am free to reject all of them and none of it ever takes precedent over Holy Writ or Sacred tradition.

And I don’t even think Our Lady of America is approved yet. Will need clarification on that one.

 

[MiserereMei]

Thank you.

And they run wild with this stuff.

Sadly, I remember the Lutheran pastor who officiated my wedding saying to the effect that some of the extreme behavior toward Mary he witnessed in his youth (he’s from an Irish Catholic family) drove him away from the Catholic Church. Unfortunately, I have to assume that every communion has its ill-formed members, as I have heard and seen things among the Lutherans that made me do a double-take as well.

I am free to reject all of them and none of it ever takes precedent over Holy Writ or Sacred tradition.

This is a good confirmation, because I am suspicious of private revelation to begin with, and generally assume such to be a matter of either human creativity or …erm… psychology. Admittedly, though, I do use the “O my Jesus” decade prayer in my Rosary, because that’s how I was taught and the content of the prayer itself is unobjectionable; I also have a fondness for the image and devotion to the Sacred Heart, though there are private revelations associated with that.

And I don’t even think Our Lady of America is approved yet. Will need clarification on that one.

From what I have been able to find, the apparition itself is not yet approved, though apparently the devotion attached to it has some measure of tentative approval.

 

[Donald_S]

Started RCIA today, got a free catechism so that was nice . Looking forward to digging into it over the next several months. The RCIA class is right before mass at the Cathedral of St. Joseph in Wheeling, WV. I prayed the rosary before going to class and mass so it was a very peaceful and fulfilling 5 hours (45 minute drive each way, listened to We Are One Body radio down and back) this morning. Looking forward to the rest of the process!

 

[al2o3]

MM, I just wished to confirm Lenten_ashes message.
I have lived to 2 very different parts of the world than America and yes - many catholics do get carried away in their many “devotions”. Lenten_ashes commentary is spot on - the Catholic church is coming through a period of very poorly catechized faithful over the last few decades. Its going to take some time for this to be changed and till then we can all work towards better education of ourselves and those around us in the Catholic faith.

I just wonder - in your circumstances - whether it is prudent to risk exposing your wife to this behaviour. I can see how it might alienate, rather than unite. In my own case it would cause my spouse (who is passionate about their Christian faith) extreme discomfort and contribute to even more virulent denunciation of the Catholic church. In this sense, I just pray that the Holy Spirit guides them to the truth - and I must trust in His mercy.

That said, I can imagine and share your sadness that our spouses faith is not shared with us in unity.

 

[Michael16]

I know from personal experience that in my discernment of the Faith, my ex wife would look at the Mary centerpiece of my rosary and say: “ That’s not Christian. “

I know it’s hard, brothers and sisters; but persevere in the Faith.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Her response: “I dunno. Like the Pope being perfect and can’t make mistakes. I don’t want to get into specifics right now.”

I have a long way to go.

1. Re “the Pope being perfect”: Only God IS perfect by nature, the Saints are perfect by grace. Pope Francis is not perfect (and he would probably tell you the same thing if you asked him). He goes to confession just like all Catholics and hears confessions as well.
2. He “can’t make mistakes” only when he is speaking ex cathedra. That’s the charism (gift) of papal infallibility, which was defined by the Vatican I (1869-1870) in Pastor Aeternus:

"For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter

• not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine,
• but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles .

Here’s the dogmatic definition of papal infallibility from Vatican I:

"…we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that

• when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA ,
  • that is, when,
  • in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
  • in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
  • he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
• he possesses,
  • by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
• that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
• Therefore , such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.

So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema .

Example:

1. For which reason, after we have poured forth prayers of supplication again and again to God, and have invoked the light of the Spirit of Truth, for the glory of Almighty God who has lavished his special affection upon the Virgin Mary, for the honor of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages and the Victor over sin and death, for the increase of the glory of that same august Mother, and for the joy and exultation of the entire Church; by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.
2. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.

That’s the dogmatic definition of the Assumption of Our Lady. (Note that it fulfilled all the conditions laid down by Vatican I.)

Does that help?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Here’s the first two Rules of St. Ignatius:

First Rule . The first Rule: In the persons who go from mortal sin to mortal sin, the enemy is commonly used to propose to them apparent pleasures, making them imagine sensual delights and pleasures in order to hold them more and make them grow in their vices and sins. In these persons the good spirit uses the opposite method, pricking them and biting their consciences through the process of reason.

Second Rule . The second: In the persons who are going on intensely cleansing their sins and rising from good to better in the service of God our Lord, it is the method contrary to that in the first Rule, for then it is the way of the evil spirit to bite, sadden and put obstacles, disquieting with false reasons, that one may not go on; and it is proper to the good to give courage and strength, consolations, tears, inspirations and quiet, easing, and putting away all obstacles, that one may go on in well doing.

These have really helped me.

 

[Michael16]

Thank you, @Margaret_Ann that was really helpful.

For both the text defining papal infallibility and for the text of Ignatian rules. That’s really helping me as well.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Just out of curiosity, what about Lutherans made you do a double take? I attended a Lutheran Church for maybe 4 or 5 months so not that much exposure to them.

 

[Minks]

Started RCIA today, got a free catechism so that was nice . Looking forward to digging into it over the next several months. The RCIA class is right before mass at the Cathedral of St. Joseph in Wheeling, WV. I prayed the rosary before going to class and mass so it was a very peaceful and fulfilling 5 hours (45 minute drive each way, listened to We Are One Body radio down and back) this morning. Looking forward to the rest of the process!

@Donald_S

How wonderful that you’re finally on your way! My prayers go with you! As with everything else in life, your enthusiasm and excitement may have its ups and downs, but may you always, through all that comes your way, maintain an overall even keel and rejoice in the Holy Eucharist at every opportunity, knowing that there is no other way on earth to be that close to Him. God’s blessings to you!

 

[MiserereMei]

whether it is prudent to risk exposing your wife to this behaviour.

It isn’t. That’s why, though I gave her an open invitation at the start, I haven’t pressed the issue. I estimate that it will be another two or three years of laying groundwork in Bible study with her before I will think it safe. The biggest obstacle isn’t even regarding doctrines or disciplines. She rejects the notion that any denomination is anything more than a human institution, all at best being equal, with none having all the truth. She interprets the Catholic claim as an example of arrogance.

Does that help?

@Margaret_Ann, It helps, but I need to direct my wife by means of Scripture alone for her to accept it as a legitimate concept. I will need to do a study of Matthew 16 and 18, John 20, Isaiah 22.

She didn’t accept the Real Presence until I kept saying “I know it doesn’t make sense, but Jesus said ‘This is my body and this is my blood’. If I believe he is God, who am I to question how or whether it happens?”

 

[OddBird]

She rejects the notion that any denomination is anything more than a human institution, all at best being equal, with none having all the truth.

There are much the same questions from my husband here. He definitely wants to work towards Christian unity, but to him that means some kind of overarching unity, not unity inside one human institution.

But yesterday he suggested, of his own, that we go together to evening Mass

(I’m sorry I’m not too present on the forum these days, life is a bit hectic around here !)

 

[MiserereMei]

what about Lutherans made you do a double take? I attended a Lutheran Church for maybe 4 or 5 months so not that much exposure to them

It isn’t with Lutherans in general, but with particular Lutherans. I’ve been Lutheran for a few years now, and I attend a Lutheran seminary. Here’s a few examples:

1. A classmate (a pastor’s son), on St Patrick’s Day asked “Why are we celebrating St Patrick’s Day when that’s what the Catholics do?”
2. A pastor said in an adult Sunday school class “I don’t like Confirmation. It’s only good as a photo opportunity for relatives. I’ve been trying to get rid of it for years.”
3. This same pastor said on another occasion, “I don’t know why anyone would ever read Aquinas, when Pieper makes so much more sense.”
4. The Lutheran pastor we are currently under once said in a private meeting with me, “Don’t get hung up on the details. We are all just making it up as we go anyway.”

So yeah. That’s just a sample. I have more, but that suffices for an illustration.

On the other hand, I met more faithful Lutherans (including the same people who took me back a few times) who were just trying to follow Jesus as best they could.

An example: A friend and I used to get coffee together and talk theology. He recognized Catholic tendencies in me about two or three years ago, and at the time jokingly advised I do my thesis on the Magnificat, so I could push my “Mary-worshipping ways on us Lutherans”. My response was “That’s a good idea, actually. I’ll consider it. You Lutherans need to learn what prayer really is.” We both had a good laugh then. (We would jokingly poke fun at each other’s theology, but knew the other tried to ground himself in Scripture just as much as the other.)

 

[HopkinsReb]

Went to Mass for the first time since I decided to convert last night. Boy howdy was that church not the church for me (happily, it’s not my parish; I went with a couple friends, one of whom is a cradle Catholic and the other of whom is also a convert-in-progress). Music was poor (both in terms of song selection and performance), Eucharist was a cattle stampede, and the building was architecturally stark–with its CMU walls, it looked like a church was retrofitted into a high school gymnasium (there is a good chance that this was actually the case, to be fair).

Fortunately, the parish I actually live in has Mass much more to my tastes. If only schedules worked out for me to attend the nearby Ordinariate parish, but I’ve promised my wife I’ll continue to go to church with her so the timing doesn’t mesh in the mornings. Saturday and Sunday evenings it is.

 

[MiserereMei]

Unfortunately, it sounds like you are describing the only parish in my side of town. (My wife and I have only one working car at the moment, so I don’t have any other choice.) It was revealed to me that my parish’s sanctuary was originally supposed to be a school’s cafeteria, and the gymnasium for the attached school was supposed to be the sanctuary, so you never know about the whole gymnasium thing. (Just think of Marty Haugen songs plucked out on a piano as penance… Just think of them as penance…)

Anyway, welcome formally to the team!

 

[Donald_S]

I’m somewhat fortunate in this area. I live in Weirton, WV, about 10 minutes drive from Franciscan University in Steubenville, Ohio. There is a cathedral in Wheeling, WV, about 45 minutes drive, as well. There are 3 Catholic churches in Weirton and 5-6 churches in Steubenville, one is near cathedral size (St Peter). Pittsburgh is only 45 minutes drive as well, and there are several large and beautiful churches in addition to a cathedral. I plan to go to St Anthony’s sometime in the next few weeks to tour their relics collection

 

[MiserereMei]

Here’s the first two Rules of St. Ignatius:

Thank you.

I need to look into St Ignatius more. I have a copy of his Spiritual Exercises, but haven’t gotten around to reading it. I recall my Spiritual Director years ago wanted me to try it, but she had to move before we could get to it. She also mentioned on more than one occasion that she thought I would have made a good Jesuit. That’s not possible now, obviously.