On the Tiber's shore
- Thread starter OddBird
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HopkinsReb
Guest
I’d get funny looks on the subway
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Michael16
Guest
@Cecilia_Dympna, that’s true. I’m trying hard to keep my pride from getting in the way and keeping it centered on what’s good for them.
That’s one reason why I swallowed what’s been happening.
@MiserereMei,
My family thinks that I just parrot Church teaching and not having my own mind. My sister even demanded of me: “ Do you even think for yourself? “ But, I’ve explained to them that I believe what the Church teaches and I’ll be interpreting accordingly.
As for the family tension, it doesn’t help that for a while I’ve been combative and aggressive in my approach with them.
Because of that; that’s why they said that they’re not anti Catholic, they’re just mad at me for being an intolerant zealot that tells them everything they believe was wrong. I’ve been working on that.
As for the Bible study, their not referencing Luther in their interpretations; just their own opinions. Heck, I don’t know if they even know what the Book of Concord is. They basically just want us and only us, a group of laypeople; to read a passage and share our interpretations together.
However, with how sensitive and how easily upset my sister and mother can get about religion; I can see that this Bible study thing could end up being a disaster.
As for the value of the Bible study: I see it as a possibility for evangelization; or at least a sharing of opinions. I pray it just doesn’t end up with us arguing of front of the kids.
@OddBird,
Thank you for the prayers. Yes, family and faith issues can be very difficult. I truly appreciate them, soror mea. How do you say sister in French?
They are nine year old fraternal twins.
That’s one reason why I swallowed what’s been happening.
@MiserereMei,
My family thinks that I just parrot Church teaching and not having my own mind. My sister even demanded of me: “ Do you even think for yourself? “ But, I’ve explained to them that I believe what the Church teaches and I’ll be interpreting accordingly.
As for the family tension, it doesn’t help that for a while I’ve been combative and aggressive in my approach with them.
Because of that; that’s why they said that they’re not anti Catholic, they’re just mad at me for being an intolerant zealot that tells them everything they believe was wrong. I’ve been working on that.
As for the Bible study, their not referencing Luther in their interpretations; just their own opinions. Heck, I don’t know if they even know what the Book of Concord is. They basically just want us and only us, a group of laypeople; to read a passage and share our interpretations together.
However, with how sensitive and how easily upset my sister and mother can get about religion; I can see that this Bible study thing could end up being a disaster.
As for the value of the Bible study: I see it as a possibility for evangelization; or at least a sharing of opinions. I pray it just doesn’t end up with us arguing of front of the kids.
@OddBird,
Thank you for the prayers. Yes, family and faith issues can be very difficult. I truly appreciate them, soror mea. How do you say sister in French?
They are nine year old fraternal twins.
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MiserereMei
Guest
In this situation, since no one has any formal theological or linguistic training, and everyone’s passions are running strong, might I suggest you recommend a different take? Maybe give the suggestion that you pray morning and/or evening prayer together out of the hymnal. Use the appointed readings from the hymnal in a translation they are comfortable with. Allow whoever wants/believes they have the authority to lead, but only volunteer yourself if no one else is willing. Follow the hymnal’s Order exactly, don’t sneak anything in. If they don’t have a hymnal, buy a copy of the one their parish or Synod uses.
If you feel obliged to use non-Biblical texts to help catechize them, use Luther’s Small Catechism. There is nothing in that catechism itself that I am aware of that is contrary to the Catholic faith.
In other words, bend over backwards for them. Stop arguing, stop fighting. Pray with them and for them. Let them and you both cool down. Love them, and let the Holy Spirit do his thing.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Sounds very tough, Michael.
I think there is hope at the end of this tunnel, though. Depending on how biblically astute they are or are not.
For example, Jesus left us this authoritative Church (Matthew 16/18) That is the Pillar and Bulwark of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15) That has authority to bind and loose (Acts 15) and can forgive or retain sins (John 20). Where exactly is this Church amongst protestants? If you can, over time, get them to see these things then maybe they open their hearts and minds some.
Now, the harsh comments about you not thinking for yourself tells me you are dealing with marble here, not clay. So it will take some time. Maybe some time when you are away from the kids and their guard is finally down some, you can ask them where is this idea coming from that everything about the Christian faith has to be found explicitly in the scriptures? And how do they even know what books were supposed to go in the bible to begin with and by who’s authority are they actually trusting in on the subject? We can even take it a step further – the gospel according to Mark. No where do we find someone named Mark claiming authorship of this book. It’s the gospel according to Mark, because the Church said so. The same Church that says something called purgatory exists even though it is not found explicitly in the scriptures, etc, etc.
Getting folks to think outside the bubble that they have created for themselves is tough but it can be done. Just takes time and gentleness.
I think there is hope at the end of this tunnel, though. Depending on how biblically astute they are or are not.
For example, Jesus left us this authoritative Church (Matthew 16/18) That is the Pillar and Bulwark of the truth. (1 Tim 3:15) That has authority to bind and loose (Acts 15) and can forgive or retain sins (John 20). Where exactly is this Church amongst protestants? If you can, over time, get them to see these things then maybe they open their hearts and minds some.
Now, the harsh comments about you not thinking for yourself tells me you are dealing with marble here, not clay. So it will take some time. Maybe some time when you are away from the kids and their guard is finally down some, you can ask them where is this idea coming from that everything about the Christian faith has to be found explicitly in the scriptures? And how do they even know what books were supposed to go in the bible to begin with and by who’s authority are they actually trusting in on the subject? We can even take it a step further – the gospel according to Mark. No where do we find someone named Mark claiming authorship of this book. It’s the gospel according to Mark, because the Church said so. The same Church that says something called purgatory exists even though it is not found explicitly in the scriptures, etc, etc.
Getting folks to think outside the bubble that they have created for themselves is tough but it can be done. Just takes time and gentleness.
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TNMan
Guest
I’m sorry, Michael. That’s rough. Will be praying for you.
On another note, I’m having a really tough time with discernment right now. Any prayers would be appreciated.
On another note, I’m having a really tough time with discernment right now. Any prayers would be appreciated.
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Donald_S
Guest
Forgive me if you’ve already explained, but would you be able to detail what is making discernment tough for you?
sœur
So they’re a bit young to make a decision on their own on theological bases, I’d think.
I really like @MiserereMei’s suggestion. Pray the Office, in whatever version pleases your family. Love them. Show your sons the beauty of the faith with your love for them and your family. Let the Holy Spirit do the rest.
Growing up without their mom must not be easy. I will pray for them too.
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TNMan
Guest
I was 100% convinced to start the conversion process, but have had a lot of pushback from my wife. And things keep happening at my current church that make me feel like I should stay.
The more I study, the more I see myself again agreeing with some of Lutheranism’s doctrines. I just want the Spirit to guide me to truth.
The more I study, the more I see myself again agreeing with some of Lutheranism’s doctrines. I just want the Spirit to guide me to truth.
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Donald_S
Guest
I understand, it’s a difficult decision. I failed to complete RCIA twice. But one thing I noticed about those two times was that I left because of how I felt rather than what I knew. This time I have been more focused on the theological, historical, philosophical, and intellectual points to make my decision and I find myself more and more pulled into the Catholic church. Feelings are fickle and dangerous guides, and Protestantism is very good about engaging your feelings. I don’t mean to say this in a negative way.
This may not be the case for you though. I’m just sharing my experience. My wife is generally supportive so I am fortunate there. The only thing I can say is that if she wasn’t, I would have to ask myself, “What is more important? Peace with my wife or peace with what I believe is the truest path to God?” But it’s not an easy question and it may not be that black and white
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MiserereMei
Guest
These are the most important issues.
Could I ask which doctrines in particular? As I’ve mentioned before, I am doing my Master’s at a Lutheran seminary. Maybe we could reason out some things together, one way or another. If need be, we can do it via PM so we don’t get people who don’t have a background in Lutheran theology jumping in.
As for your wife, there is no rush. Don’t change things too much. Stick as much as possible to Lutheran resources for your prayer life with her. Stick with what she’s comfortable with, and be willing to take things slowly. Maybe revisit the Small Catechism with her.
Between you and me, my respect for Dr. Luther hasn’t been diminished at all by my desire to return to the Catholic fold. I still see in him a kindred spirit to myself, and hope to see him in heaven someday.
O God, by the light of the Holy Spirit you have taught the hearts of the faithful. In the same Spirit, help us to know what is truly right and always to rejoice in your consolation. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.
As an aside, I am planning on making a lightly-edited edition (mostly modernizing an old public domain version and using the current Mass texts) of Luther’s Small Catechism with the plan to annotate it with passages from the CCC. Luther’s Catechism has served well in teaching my loved ones the basics of Christianity. I would be loathe to leave it behind.
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Lenten_ashes
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Generally speaking, it’s much easier to be a Protestant Christian.
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Lenten_ashes
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I went through something similar midway through RCIA – I think many of us have. Only mine was the decision between Orthodoxy and the RCC as I was already fully convinced that Sola Scriptura is man made, self refuting doctrine and that Jesus has more for us than what protestantism has to offer.
Do not convert unless you are fully convinced!
But I must warn you, this pull you felt to join the Catholic Church will not cease. Years down the line it will still be there. I speak from experience as i explored the Church for nearly a decade before I was confirmed.
Do not convert unless you are fully convinced!
But I must warn you, this pull you felt to join the Catholic Church will not cease. Years down the line it will still be there. I speak from experience as i explored the Church for nearly a decade before I was confirmed.
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whatistrue
Guest
That is always tough. I am in a better place than that - my wife is on the opposite shore waving to me to “come on in, the water’s fine!”. Of course she never actually swan but is a cradle Catholic.
I tried to get it done with individual questioning/instruction by the Pastor after doing a lot of self study (mostly because my then work schedule would not allow regular RCIA sessions), but he was having none of it. My first RCIA session is supposed to start in less than 2 hours from now.
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HopkinsReb
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This annoys me to no end. RCIA is not intended for Christians swimming the Tiber; it’s intended for those new to Christianity. Making people who are already better-catechized than most Catholics go through the RCIA class is silly.TNMan:
That is always tough. I am in a better place than that - my wife is on the opposite shore waving to me to “come on in, the water’s fine!”. Of course she never actually swan but is a cradle Catholic.
I tried to get it done with individual questioning/instruction by the Pastor after doing a lot of self study (mostly because my then work schedule would not allow regular RCIA sessions), but he was having none of it. My first RCIA session is supposed to start in less than 2 hours from now.
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Lenten_ashes
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You could probably catechize a well formed protestant Christian in 4 hours or less. I say that because they have most likely done much research already prior to calling the RCIA director.
What annoyed me about RCIA is that RCIC no longer existed and so we had tons of kids in there, and it just felt too elementary overall.
What annoyed me about RCIA is that RCIC no longer existed and so we had tons of kids in there, and it just felt too elementary overall.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
The Lord be with you on your journey.
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humbleseeker
Guest
I felt the same way. However, I came to view the whole RCIA process as the first visible step in submitting my will to the authority of the Church. Not easy for a former non-denom.
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HopkinsReb
Guest
I’m sure I’ll learn a thing or two. Still, frustrating.
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