On the Tiber's shore

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You’re married, no? So you know the drill: Show up, smile, make polite conversation even if you’d rather be home watching the game. It’s the best thing for you in the long run.😜
 
humbleseeker said:
You’re married, no? So you know the drill: Show up, smile, make polite conversation even if you’d rather be home watching the game. It’s the best thing for you in the long run.😜
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On the one hand, I’d like to get my wife to come and see that it’s not a statue-worshiping cult. On the other hand, what if the RCIA director is terrible and confirms that view?
 
This is how I feel about my own journey personally. But that’s also pride talking so I know the program is designed to be as long as it is for a reason
 
Sola scriptural is the easiest one for me to get past.

Sola fide on the other hand is where I’m still held up. I know we’re judged based on our works, and I know the Lutheran and Catholic joint declariatiom (I’m lcms and they didn’t partake) came to a somewhat understanding, but I haven’t had it explained well to me by anyone yet how the RCC ties works into the justification process.
 
TNMan said:
Sola fide on the other hand is where I’m still held up.
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Personally, I think it is mostly a problem with definitions of terminology. Ultimately, I do not think there is as much contradiction between the Lutheran position and the Catholic position as our polemics would make one think.

Peter Kreeft, in Catholic Christianity, I think, puts things well enough (quoting from pg. 25). I would note that Kreeft seems to use the term “choice” rather more loosely than a Lutheran would (of course in this particular book he is being quite conversational to begin with).
… oth Protestants and Catholics are beginning to see that their two apparently contradictory positions may have been saying the same essential thing in different words, words that seemed contradictory but perhaps were not. Returning to the common data—Scripture—reveals that both key words, “faith” and “salvation”, are used in two senses: sometimes more narrowly and sometimes more broadly:
a. In Romans and Galatians, for example, St. Paul uses “faith” broadly, to mean acceptance of God and his offer of salvation in Christ. This is the free choice of the will that saves us. But in 1 Corinthians 13, St. Paul uses “faith” in a narrower sense in distinguishing faith from hope and love, and he says love is greater. And St. James uses faith in a narrower sense when he says that faith alone does not save us. That is, intellectual belief alone does not save us.
b. Scripture also uses “salvation” in two senses, broad and narrow. Salvation in the broad sense includes sanctification, being-made-saintly, being-made-holy; and this is a process that requires not faith alone but also good works. Salvation in the narrower sense means just being accepted by God, or justified, forgiven for sin, being in a state of grace. Catholics agree with Protestants that in this narrower sense of salvation we can be saved by faith alone—that is, by faith in the broader sense, faith as a choice of the will, not just a belief of the intellect. Faith is what lets the life of God into our soul. The thief on the cross (Lk 23:33–43) had no time for good works, but he was saved by his faith.
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It should be noted elsewhere (pg. 23) that Kreeft also refers to faith as a gift from God both through the Church and directly.

I think we can see from here that the primary difference between Lutheran and Catholic soteriology is that Lutheran tradition make a hard division between justification and sanctification, whereas the Catholic tradition does not. It strikes me that, contra some of my systematics professors (who are LCMS), the truth behind the concepts are more important than how we categorize the concepts.
 
MiserereMei said:
It strikes me that, contra some of my systematics professors (who are LCMS), the truth behind the concepts are more important than how we categorize the concepts.
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Good point. Thank you for the reply. Informative.
 
Our FSSP parish priest provides individual instruction to converts as necessary.
 
@TNMan:

I invite you to read the CCC.

First off: We teach in it that justification and sanctification are the same thing.

1995 CCC:

Justification entails the sanctification (italics in original) of his whole being…

2010 CCC:

Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit ( in italics) for ourselves and others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Please PM me if you have any questions. I’ll be happy to help.
 
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HopkinsReb said:
Making people who are already better-catechized than most Catholics go through the RCIA class is silly.
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I tend to agree on a personal level of course. But after meeting with Father and thinking about what he had to say, I can at least understand where he is coming from. I think that in my case, it was not so much a matter of not knowing, it was more not “being” if that makes sense. The best way I can think of to put it is that I had head knowledge but he discerned that my heart knowledge night be lacking and going through with a group and formal support from the RCIA team would help me. And of course I also came to understand that he was probably one of the busiest men I ever have or ever will meet and here I was wanting to take up more of his time because I didn’t want to sit in a class once a week was a bit selfish. I mean the man is: 1) Pastor of the largest parish in the Diocese, 2) Vicar Forane for the Deanery, and 3) Promoter of Justice for the Diocesan Tribunal. And who knows what else that I don’t know about. I wonder when he gets to eat or sleep…
 
Michael16 said:
@Cecilia_Dympna, that’s true. I’m trying hard to keep my pride from getting in the way and keeping it centered on what’s good for them.

That’s one reason why I swallowed what’s been happening.

@MiserereMei,

My family thinks that I just parrot Church teaching and not having my own mind. My sister even demanded of me: “ Do you even think for yourself? “ But, I’ve explained to them that I believe what the Church teaches and I’ll be interpreting accordingly.

As for the family tension, it doesn’t help that for a while I’ve been combative and aggressive in my approach with them.

Because of that; that’s why they said that they’re not anti Catholic, they’re just mad at me for being an intolerant zealot that tells them everything they believe was wrong. I’ve been working on that.

As for the Bible study, their not referencing Luther in their interpretations; just their own opinions. Heck, I don’t know if they even know what the Book of Concord is. They basically just want us and only us, a group of laypeople; to read a passage and share our interpretations together.

However, with how sensitive and how easily upset my sister and mother can get about religion; I can see that this Bible study thing could end up being a disaster.

As for the value of the Bible study: I see it as a possibility for evangelization; or at least a sharing of opinions. I pray it just doesn’t end up with us arguing of front of the kids.

@OddBird,

Thank you for the prayers. Yes, family and faith issues can be very difficult. I truly appreciate them, soror mea. How do you say sister in French?

They are nine year old fraternal twins.
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@Michael16

You and your boys are in a precarious position, Michael. Not only have the children lost their mother, but if your sister & your mother “put in a good word for the Lutheran faith” to the boys, whenever possible, that amounts to a bad word against you, which would create a tug of war within them—a terrible mess in which the kids’ already fragile emotions might become even more frayed.

Even though you all love each other, their outlook is undisputably Lutheran, not Catholic, and I guarantee that the differences will surface; it’s just a matter of time. Why else would they be pushing for bible studies, if not to show how you’re wrong & they’re right? Even if you only want to take them on while the boys are in school, you’re still voluntarily setting yourself up for discord, and, possibly, doubt. In my opinion, the children should never be privy to such encounters, but, you, too, have endured much upheaval and need to protect yourself, as well. My prayers for you, Michael, and my best wishes to you. I’ll include you, your boys, and the rest of your family in my prayers. ❤️
 
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Yeah, the real long and short of it is most parishes don’t have the resources to separate already-Christian converts from the unbaptized.
 
Michael16 said:
@OddBird,

Things are starting to look bad in my part of the world.

My youngest son asked to go to Mass with me this Sunday and that caused a major talk Monday morning.

Now, my family wants to do a comparative interpretation Bible study with me and my sons so they can hear both sides before they decide whether to be Catholic or Lutheran. Here’s the thing: They want to do it as “ just Christian “ while telling me not to reference Church teaching in my interpretation.

Also, my ex in laws want to give us a portion of my ex wife’s ashes in an urn so my sons can talk to their mother whenever they want. My Mom wants to do it and I don’t.

I talked to Deacon about it and he says it would be unlawful for me to allow this to happen. I fear this’ll cause a split in my family when I put my foot down.

I’ll be meeting Deacon soon and I’m seriously considering whether or not to just move out and ask my parish if someone can watch my sons for me while I’m at work.
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@Michael16

Would an actual burial of the ashes be possible? It would provide a formal, “official” place for them to go to mourn and pray and talk to her, and might lend normalcy to her passing, since ashes are a fairly recent cultural adaptation.
 
Nearest FSSP to me is in Baltimore, an hour away at least. Plus I have no interest in TLM.
 
I might have considered going the FSSP route just to “get joined up” so to speak, but Richmond and Baltimore are my only semi-reasonable options (but still too far to go) and I wouldn’t feel right about doing it that way having been regularly attending where my wife has been a parishioner for around 30 years and where the very same extraordinarily busy Pastor can pick me out of a crowd and remember the last conversation we had or email we exchanged weeks after the fact. I just have to accept that maybe he actually does know best and it is more than just following a routine because it is the routine.
 
Could be, but I have a different take. I have limited experience in RCIA, but from the class that I observed first hand, I think it is something else besides parish resources. I think the number of baptized Christians who enter RCIA such as yourself who are well versed in any Christian theology is quite small compared to those who are, from a knowledge of Christianity standpoint, not much different than the catechumens. On top of that, there are Catechumens who are self-identifying Christians, yet who were never baptized and they have spent more time in their lives studying the bible, being involved in some denomination sect that they know more than the baptized Christains in the class. I suspect, in any given RCIA class, one can roughly split them into two groups: those with a strong Christian background and those with a weak(er) Christian background; but these groups in no way correspond to those who have been baptized and those who have not. So its not a matter of parish resources, as much as splitting them into a group of candidates and catechumens just doesn’t work from an instructional standpoint.
 
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To you guys on the Tiber’s shore, I would first of all say I am praying for you all. As to the comments I have seen from some of you regarding the disappointing masses (disappointing is my term, I hope I am not interpreting you wrongly) you have attended with regards to the music, homily, etc, I would make this point. I get, 100% where you are coming from. It has been a consistent complaint for years, especially from converts from Lutherism and the CoE. Here are my thoughts. I actually think that most priests do a decent job with homilies, its just that protestants are used to longer homilies and more focus being placed there. As to music, you are 100% justified in feeling it is quite a step down in quality from what you are used to. Heck, some of the best hymns in English in a Catholic church are typically those we have “stolen” from the older CoE stuff. I have no idea why this complaint by converts does not drive more of us Catholics to admit how bad some of our music has gotten in the last 40 years or so. But I will say this, focus on the prayers of the mass itself, all of them: the collect, the offertory prayers, the Eucharistic prayers, etc. You will find most all of them beautifully written and very good.
 
@HopkinsReb:

I’ve been reading some about Saint John Henry Newman and I’m wowed by the man. I’m wondering just how mad the CofE was he went home to Rome.

Btw: Was he a major influence on your decision to swim across?
 
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Michael16 said:
I’ve been reading some about Saint John Henry Newman and I’m wowed by the man. I’m wondering just how mad the CofE was he went home to Rome.
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Pretty mad. There were many accusations that he had always been a closet papist who had infiltrated the Anglican Church on Rome’s orders to undermine it.

He was part of kicking the door open. More importantly, he was really important in my understanding of the Sacraments and is the reason that modern Anglicanism has the robust Sacramental vision it has now; that was absent prior to the Oxford Movement.
 
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