Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

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livingwordunity said:
I don’t get your point. You say that we shouldn’t respect the court decision. So do you want to bring back lynchings and have Zimmerman lynched?
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Um, see my last response. I’ve never claimed that “we shouldn’t respect the court decision.”
 
gracepoole said:
When did I claim that we shouldn’t respect this court decision? I don’t think there’s a choice but to do so in a respectable society. That doesn’t mean one has to agree that it’s righteous. I don’t believe people should hunt Zimmerman down.
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You insinuated that you don’t respect it. Now you are trying to back-peddle on what you’ve been arguing. Whatever. 🤷
 
coachkfan1 said:
As a gun owner and a supporter of gun rights, I do say that had Zimmerman stayed in his vehicle and waited for police to come, this would never have happened. He is not a law enforcement officer and he had no right to confront or detain a fellow citizen who was not committing a crime!
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I agree. I feel this death was not in vain for we can learn from this situation so it does not happen again. Not everyone that thought Zimmerman had some culpability for the entire situation are anti gun rights people.
 
gracepoole said:
If retreat is a viable option, I wouldn’t be “offering [myself] up as [a] sacrificial victim.”
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Your argument was that you don’t like SYG laws. Which means you want to be required to retreat. Legally.
 
livingwordunity said:
You insinuated that you don’t respect it. Now you are trying to back-peddle on what you’ve been arguing. Whatever. 🤷
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Uh, okay… I don’t want to be disrespectful but I can’t be held accountable for erroneous readings of my comments.
 
Sounds like obama is pouting… I hope he gets more egg on his face because of it… this is a joke.
adrift said:
Shooting Murder of Trayvon Martin
Obama Files Federal Charges Against George Zimmerman Following Acquittal in Shooting Murder of Trayvon Martin

Just when we thought the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin case was over after Zimmerman’s acquittal, the Obama Administration has taken the steps needed to file federal charges, thus sidestepping the well established double jeopardy, against Zimmerman. Unidentified sources within the Administration have confirmed that Obama, and Justice Eric Holder at the Department of Justice have filed charges against Zimmerman for “violating Trayvon Martin’s civil rights”.
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Cider said:
Your argument was that you don’t like SYG laws. Which means you want to be required to retreat. Legally.
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No. My point was that in the wake of SYG laws, killings of blacks seem to be more legally justified. I accept the Church’s teachings on self-defense. But retreat is a viable option of self-defense, as well.
 
gracepoole said:
No. My point was that in the wake of SYG laws, killings of blacks seem to be more legally justified. I accept the Church’s teachings on self-defense. But retreat is a viable option of self-defense, as well.
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👍 Well said.
 
gracepoole said:
No. My point was that in the wake of SYG laws, killings of blacks seem to be more legally justified. I accept the Church’s teachings on self-defense. But retreat is a viable option of self-defense, as well.
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Please enlighten us how someone is to retreat when they are being straddled and having their head pounded into concrete.
 
gracepoole said:
No. My point was that in the wake of SYG laws, killings of blacks seem to be more legally justified. I accept the Church’s teachings on self-defense. But retreat is a viable option of self-defense, as well.
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We aren’t talking about options, we are talking about laws. SYG is a law that removes the duty to retreat. You have posted saying you oppose SYG laws. The law applies to everyone.
 
styrgwillidar said:
I don’t think Martin was trying to kill GZ. As I said in the other thread, I think at the heart of this was a fundamental difference in approaches to fighting. I think (with the evidence from the phone not available to the jury), that for Martin fighting was a sport. Winners and losers, proving who’s tougher. Showing you’re willing to get in a scrap and stand up for yourself. Respect.
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Possible.
Very hard to understand there are others out there who don’t feel a need to prove themselves to anyone. In fact may be fully aware they aren’t tougher, or fighters and avoid confrontation because to them, they don’t want to get hurt. They don’t see the sense in taking or giving a beating. For them any conflict is life or death-- because that’s the only reason they will fight, they see there is too much at risk. Especially with strangers. As my Dad warned me- “You will never know how far the other person is willing to take it”.
Some folks with this attitude carry guns. Because they will never enter a conflict they can possibly avoid, and don’t have the machismo to believe they can beat anybody and everybody in a fight.
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Don’t know if you’re familiar with the various versions of “Rules to a gunfight” that float around the internet-
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“23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.” (some lists have it as - You never lose the fight you avoid).
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Well we don’t know if Zimmerman was one of those who follows the gunfighter’s rules for de-escalation or if he’s a need to prove himself type, do we?
On the other thread somebody claimed studies show gun owners are more rational decision makers but I highly doubt it. Even if true, I suspect there are exceptions who feel carrying a gun makes them superman.
My gut feel is that Zimmerman was aware of his limitations, got the CCW due to the problem with dogs. Carried because he could but like many CCWs saw it as a last-ditch option. He happened to run into someone who saw fighting as something less than life or death, and neither could read the others mind.
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I think Martin saw this as teaching the ‘creepy -…’ a lesson. I think he very well may have have stopped at the point Z stopped struggling.
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I think Zimmerman got out of his car determined not to let Martin away, as in “these [expletives] always get away” despite being instructed to stay in his car. I don’t know if Zimmerman is racist but he certainly considered Martin one of them probably for reasons of age, class and race and recent crimes in the neighborhood.
As for the “creepy — cracker” I’d consider someone following me creepy.

We have only Zimmerman’s word that Martin threw the first punch. His claim that he just walked away after he caught up to Martin is an absolute lie. After following by car and on foot he isn’t going to just leave.
Now let’s say Martin did throw the first punch. He’s just been shadowed by some stranger, taken evasion action and the guy follows him on foot. When they meet Martin sees that the guy is armed, fearing for his life, tries to knock him unconscious.

As for the verdict I can’t say it was fair or just, it was legally correct. The prosecution shouldn’t even have tried for murder.
I am shocked that Florida has six-person juries for serious felonies including murder.

Last word, since Zimmerman is half-Hispanic I wonder how things would have played out if his surname had been Gonzalez – would the original police investigation been more thorough? Less outrage in the Black community?
 
He was following him if I remember right… and it was said/mentioned that that in and of itsself was not illegal.
BroomWagon said:
I’m not sure if the storyline follows that Zimmerman confronted or detained a fellow citizen, did he follow him? I think the facts do indicate that. Is that illegal? Does not appear to be.
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Dawnia said:
Please enlighten us how someone is to retreat when they are being straddled and having their head pounded into concrete.
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Zimmerman was told not to follow Martin and that police were on the way – that was an opportunity to retreat.
 
Cider said:
We aren’t talking about options, we are talking about laws. SYG is a law that removes the duty to retreat. You have posted saying you oppose SYG laws. The law applies to everyone.
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The duty to retreat – so rather than taking advantage of an option to retreat if it exists, you’d prefer to kill someone?
 
This case involved Self Defense, True but SYG, Stand Your Ground has still been a bit player, I believe it has to do with whether they would have initially arrested him, perhaps he initially claimed SYG.

In the end, I thought there are “4 minutes” that are unaccounted for, correct. The lawyer did that in court, 4 minutes of silence I am told.

Some of what we speculate on occur during that 4 minutes.
 
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