Open Thread on Zimmerman Verdict

[styrgwillidar]

A very balanced and fair summation. The only quibble I have is that whether Martin intended to kill GZ we do not know but certainly his actions could have easily killed GZ.

I don’t think Martin was trying to kill GZ. As I said in the other thread, I think at the heart of this was a fundamental difference in approaches to fighting. I think (with the evidence from the phone not available to the jury), that for Martin fighting was a sport. Winners and losers, proving who’s tougher. Showing you’re willing to get in a scrap and stand up for yourself. Respect.

Very hard to understand there are others out there who don’t feel a need to prove themselves to anyone. In fact may be fully aware they aren’t tougher, or fighters and avoid confrontation because to them, they don’t want to get hurt. They don’t see the sense in taking or giving a beating. For them any conflict is life or death-- because that’s the only reason they will fight, they see there is too much at risk. Especially with strangers. As my Dad warned me- “You will never know how far the other person is willing to take it”.
Some folks with this attitude carry guns. Because they will never enter a conflict they can possibly avoid, and don’t have the machismo to believe they can beat anybody and everybody in a fight.

Don’t know if you’re familiar with the various versions of “Rules to a gunfight” that float around the internet-

“23. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.” (some lists have it as - You never lose the fight you avoid).

My gut feel is that Zimmerman was aware of his limitations, got the CCW due to the problem with dogs. Carried because he could but like many CCWs saw it as a last-ditch option. He happened to run into someone who saw fighting as something less than life or death, and neither could read the others mind.

I think Martin saw this as teaching the ‘creepy -…’ a lesson. I think he very well may have have stopped at the point Z stopped struggling.

I think Zs fundamental error was walking into a darkened area without considering that the other person may still be around. With a flashlight that wasn’t working very well. I don’t think he ever considered the possibility that the other person may come back to seek him out.

Pure speculation on my part.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

And what would that be? A person aimlessly loitering in the dark and rain and looking into windows and acting oddly is what Zimmerman reported he saw.

So he reported what he thought was an aimless teenager to the police? Doubtful. Zimmerman’s legal team had witnesses talk about break-ins in the neighborhood. Zimmerman’s own words about how they “always get away” shows he thought the individual was up to no good. If someone is up to no good, the odds that they have a weapon aren’t terrible odds (in my neighborhood anyways)…

 

[BroomWagon]

And what would that be? A person aimlessly loitering in the dark and rain and looking into windows and acting oddly is what Zimmerman reported he saw.

It wasn’t in the Court trial I believe but there was reportedly and allegedly an incident earlier at that Apartment Complex where Zimmerman came to the rescue of a Cuban woman with a baby and an intruder in the apartment. Something like that. So many stories out now, hard to find that one.

“He once caught a thief and an arrest was made,” Cynthia Wibker, secretary of the homeowners association, told the Herald. “He helped solve a lot of crimes.”

washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/who-is-george-zimmerman-more-information-emerges-about-the-shooter-of-trayvon-martin/2012/03/21/gIQA6muiRS_blog.html

So, I’m not sure if I buy the basic statement with hindsight being 20/20 that Zimmerman should not have been keeping an eye on a suspicious person, I believe Zimmerman was not following Martin at close range. In fact, from the 911 call, I believe we know Zimmerman lost sight contact with Martin and was going back to his car or truck.

Now, whether Trayvon Martin deserved to be seen as suspicious is another matter. More likely no but there is some gray area there. This part is not clear.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think its crazy to follow someone you think is up to no good. What if Martin was everything Zimmerman initially thought he was. Martin could have been armed as well. Bullets flying in a neighborhood is not a good situation. A neighborhood watch person should know that.

I agree with that, but I do not agree with your earlier comment that (up until…) “everything” GZ did was wrong.

What the whole tragic episode demonstrates is this:

Behave stupidly, and you can end up in court and possibly in prison.
Behave even more stupidly, and you can end up dead.

This kind of thing is played out often in other public locations, for example, Road Rage. Sometimes even a warning honk of your horn (someone blindly veering into your lane, for example) can set off nut-cases who then literally chase you across town for daring to warn them. (It’s happened to me.)

A few years ago in my region there were drivers who got into, shall we say, a “digitized” altercation on the freeway. The aggressor (driver at fault) escaped further repercussions, while the other driver, who unfortunately responded in kind, ended up with a paralyzed daughter, which naturally devastated him. Not worth it.

Stay away from aggressive and enraged people, in or out of cars, and try NOT to enrage them. Avoidance and reporting is a better response.

 

[livingwordunity]

It seems strange that the media refers to Travon Martin as either a child or a boy but 10 year old and up young girl as a young woman when it comes to getting an abortion or the morning after pill.

That’s a really good point.

 

[gracepoole]

I’m sure I’m not the first to claim as much in this conversation, but it’s the SYG laws that are an abomination:

io9.com/disturbing-chart-shows-rise-in-justified-killings-of-773490798

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

What the whole tragic episode demonstrates is this:

Behave stupidly, and you can end up in court and possibly in prison.
Behave even more stupidly, and you can end up dead.

Agreed.

This kind of thing is played out often in other public locations, for example, Road Rage. Sometimes even a warning honk of your horn (someone blindly veering into your lane, for example) can set off nut-cases who then literally chase you across town for daring to warn them. (It’s happened to me.)

In my neighborhood I wouldn’t even think of honking the horn at someone. Too many guns around here and too many “tough guys.”

 

[Teelynn]

can I request federal charges be filed against EVERY ABORTONIST in the USA for violating the civil rights of the UNBORN? The unborn baby GIRLS? The unborn baby BOYS? The unborn children who were NEVER given a chance to take their first steps, celebrate their first birthdays, their first trip to disney world or disney land? Their first swim lesson? Their right to VOTE??? Their first time seeing snow? I could go on and on…

While we’re at it, why not file 1ST DEGREE MURDER charges along with the civil rights violations, eh?

 

[Teelynn]

Is this really true,doesn’t sound so to me, on a Saturday night at 9:00.
Or is it something with which to fault the President once more ?
Peace, Carlan

I believe this one may be a “wait and see” kind of thing. If the story has legs, it will eventually end up at least on Fox. If they’re nothing else, at least they check and recheck sources.

 

[LisaA]

I think its crazy to follow someone you think is up to no good. What if Martin was everything Zimmerman initially thought he was. Martin could have been armed as well. Bullets flying in a neighborhood is not a good situation. A neighborhood watch person should know that.

Look I do not think GZ was FOLLOWING him for any period of time or initiated a confrontation. I listed to much of the testimony and once he observed Martin’s behavior, he called it in to the dispatcher (non emergency) to report. A lot has been made of the dispatcher saying “you don’t need to follow him” but there are no indications he was on Martin’s heels or threatening him.

Some of the posters (not you) seem to infer GZ was tracking Martin like a bloodhound, inviting the confrontation and taking advantage of the situation to shoot him. There is NO evidence that happened. What GZ said makes perfect sense, that he observed him, called it in as a neighborhood watch member, and then got out of the car. He says to find an address and while some discount that part of the story, I can tell you I’ve lived in the same neighborhood since 1988 and in this development streets morph into a different name once you pass a certain side street. I live on M Avenue. It’s M Avenue for .6 of a mile from the one main cross street. After .6 of a mile M Avenue becomes N Avenue. It seems plausible to me that as a neighborhood watch person GZ could have been getting a PRECISE address for the police. He also may have tried to see if Martin were still in sight.

What makes sense is what GZ said, that Martin had disappeared into the darkness and then confronted GZ after getting out of his car. Again getting out of your car, even following someone is not illegal. Pounding someone’s head into the ground,even if he offends you, IS illegal.

I’m just so amazed at how some are trying so hard to put a halo on Martin when GZ’s main “crime” seems to be carrying a gun. Get the facts and quit using feelings. Citizens with a concealed carry stop and prevent crimes. This is not the wild west, GZ is not a “gun slinger” but an American citizen.

Oh and FWIW I don’t own a gun. But I’m certainly happy to know that there are armed citizens who could prevent a crime, stop a crime or prevent a crime from creating more carnage.

Lisa

 

[MugenOne]

One pundit just said Travyon had the potential to be the next Obama.

The man was found NOT guilty by a jury of his peers. Leave him be. The Feds need to go home to Washington and let the noise go away. Nothing racial to be seen here except by the RACE BAITERS like Jackson, Sharpton, Obama, Holder, etc.

 

[LisaA]

I’m sure I’m not the first to claim as much in this conversation, but it’s the SYG laws that are an abomination:

io9.com/disturbing-chart-shows-rise-in-justified-killings-of-773490798

SYG was neither used nor relevant to this case. It was a very simple self defense case. GZ could NOT have retreated even if he had wanted to get out of the situation.

Lisa

 

[gracepoole]

SYG was neither used nor relevant to this case. It was a very simple self defense case. GZ could NOT have retreated even if he had wanted to get out of the situation.

Lisa

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Look I do not think GZ was FOLLOWING him for any period of time or initiated a confrontation. I listed to much of the testimony and once he observed Martin’s behavior, he called it in to the dispatcher (non emergency) to report. A lot has been made of the dispatcher saying “you don’t need to follow him” but there are no indications he was on Martin’s heels or threatening him.

Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher he was following him.

 

[Dawnia]

I’m sure I’m not the first to claim as much in this conversation, but it’s the SYG laws that are an abomination:

io9.com/disturbing-chart-shows-rise-in-justified-killings-of-773490798

SYG was not an issue in this case. This was a basic self-defense case.

 

[Dawnia]

SYG was neither used nor relevant to this case. It was a very simple self defense case. GZ could NOT have retreated even if he had wanted to get out of the situation.

Lisa

According to Angela Corey during the post-verdict interview that the duty to retreat was removed long before SYG laws were put in place.

 

[LisaA]

Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher he was following him.

Yes but again, there is a difference between observing someone at a distance and tracking him like a bloodhound. I do not think there is any evidence of the latter before GZ reported Martin’s behavior to the dispatcher. Further when the dispatcher said " you don’t need to do this…" Zimmerman was NOT following him, he was in his car making the call. It’s rather hard to be in two places at once.

You presume that he got out of the car to track Martin. He says he didn’t continue to follow him and had lost sight of him after the call. Then Martin confronted GZ and the struggle began.

Your assumptions do not add up. GZ version does.

Lisa

 

[Cider]

I’m sure I’m not the first to claim as much in this conversation, but it’s the SYG laws that are an abomination:

io9.com/disturbing-chart-shows-rise-in-justified-killings-of-773490798

As was already posted, SYG didn’t apply to this case.

But having said that, if you are trying to kill me, why should I have a first duty to retreat in the first place? Why? it’s not my job to protect you, the criminal trying to kill me, it’s my job to protect myself.

 

[adawgj]

I think the jury decision was justified, because it seems more like an act of self defense than a manslaughter.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher he was following him.

Yes. And when the dispatcher said, “We don’t need you to do that”, Zimmerman responded “Ok”, then said they always get away, then discussed with the dispatcher meeting the police who were on the way. The dispatcher testified he ended the call because Zimmerman was no longer in contact, not following Martin, not providing updated information.

This matches the testimony of the girl on the phone with Martin, she testified Martin said he lost sight of Zimmerman.

This becomes the point at which Zimmerman said he was trying to get a better location/address, the woman in one of the homes in that area testified the addresses were hard to see through the shrubbery. She was a prosecution witness, yet was insistent on that point when BDLR repeatedly asked her about it.