Original Sin

[grannymh]

Thank you for this break down, I have been reading the ccc quotes that you noted

I thought your previous question meant that we as a human race now, could only know we have a spiritual relationship with God because of the O.S Adam and Eve committed and not before, but then that doesn’t make sense, so please forgive me.

That is also a popular response to the question, “Without Original Sin, how could any person know that they have a true spiritual relationship with a transcendent, eternal Creator?” Thank you for bringing up that topic.

The difficulty is that Original Sin has many misunderstandings which do not make sense and that particular “because” one is one of them. The general [false] claim, with some variations, is that in order for humans to understand goodness of anything, including a spiritual relationship with God, they had to first experience evil, that is, they had to *first *eat the forbidden fruit.

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.
How do we understand this passage? God had given Adam grace so he was perfect, yet this says Christ has given us blessings better than what the demon’s had taken away…
better than what Adam had to begin with?
Adam before O.S never knew pain/suffering/death, we suffer all this now, in this life, so how do we understand the above quote?

Thanks

One way to understand CCC 412 is to recall the difference between Adam and God. Adam as a human creature was as perfect as a human creature could be at the origin of humanity. Adam started out being peerless in his environment because not only was he material, he was spiritual which enabled Him to be in a true friendship relationship with his Creator.

Adam knew the difference between himself and God. It would be normal for Adam to admire God as superior to himself. It would also be normal to wonder how that superiority would feel. Even perfect people can envy. Satan’s temptation included envy of God and consequently a form of jealously and consequently Adam chose himself over and against God. Adam laid aside his own mastery of self and instead freely chose to go against the requirements of his creaturely status and thus disobey God in the hope of being like God but not in accord with God’s commandment for obedience. (CCC 378 & 398)

This is my very humble yet somewhat reasonable guess to your question about CCC 412. What St. Leo the Great seems to have had in mind was John 3: 16. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life.” CCC 378 opening sentence is: “The sign of man’s familiarity with God is that God places him in the garden.” The garden has ancient meanings, all good ones. But the garden did not have the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist which is the superb blessing we have today.

 

[OneSheep]

I do wish you would respond to my posts, but I will respond to this anyway, because of the contradiction that can be seen (not everyone will see a contradiction) .

Please note that the state of original holiness and justice is the state of Sanctifying Grace. While humans cannot escape their relationship of being a creature created by God; they can get rid of God’s Sanctifying Grace by freely committing mortal sin. Being in the state of Sanctifying Grace is the means of entering eternal heaven.

The problem is, if God loves unconditionally, then why would He withdraw His grace? I have asked this before, and you have not answered: is there some way that a person you love would fall out of your grace?

This again, is to me a matter of equating God with our God-given conscience. Our conscience does not love unconditionally.

The other option is to say that a person “falling from our grace” is still love, that we can love someone and banish them from our life forever, but this begs the definition of love itself. Then again, we could also modify the definition of “eternal heaven”.

Because Jesus, in His divinity, and in humankind’s place, atoned for Original Sin, Catholicism holds that all humans, in some manner known only to God, are called to share in God’s life. This being true means that God, on His part, does not exclude anyone from His presence. However, for any relationship to work, both parties have to be in agreement. Thus, God can offer His presence unconditionally. But, it is ourselves, who can refuse God’s presence. Our informed, free choice to refuse God’s offer is known as mortal sin. Mortal in a similar way to Genesis 2: 15-17.

All of this makes sense, but with one rather glaring issue. Does anyone ever make an informed, free choice to refuse God’s offer? Adam and Eve did not, and as I have said before, this aspect of the creation story to me has more to do with acquisition of conscience than the God of Love we can come to know. How can we say “God does not exclude anyone from His presence”, and then say that if we do what Adam did, we will be banished (an act from God) forever?

Have you ever made an informed, free choice to refuse God’s offer? Has anyone else? Can you provide a single example of a person who has done so?

The focus on sin is important, because people need to have informed conscience. The Church provides us a template for right and wrong for those of us who are confused and need guidance. But after Jesus death, do we adults still need to equate our God-given conscience with God Himself? We have societal laws, we have Church law, we have the active condemnation from people around us when we do bad things.

Of course, there is the fear that if we say God loves people unconditionally, then people will feel free to do sin whenever they want. Many people have told me this. But if a person is bent on doing evil, they are not considering eternal ramifications anyway. People murder even when there is a death penalty. People rape even though there are severe penalties. Do you think such blind people are going to change their minds knowing that they are choosing to turn away from God? People with such blindness are not concerned with what hurts God. Equating God with our conscience, as adults, is not worth sacrificing the aspect of unconditional love. May we free God, who loves unconditionally, from our conscience, which does not?

Can we say, when someone we love violates us, “Deep down, I love you, but my conscience is really ticked.”? (an opportunity for forgiveness, reconciliation) By making this statement, we take ownership of our emotion and condemnation, yet we express that such conscience response is not the end-all.

Jesus turned the whole conscience-is-God thing upside down when He forgave an unrepentant crowd from the cross. The crowd was acting from their consciences, punishing a blasphemer. Jesus showed us that God’s love is far deeper than the right v. wrong mechanism He gave us.

Now, there is still definitely something to be said for the fact that when we sin we turn away from eternal life, but then “eternal life” has to be carefully defined. When we are caught up in sin, we are not living a good life! We are slaves to our appetites and blindness. Jesus calls us to a good life, a free life, not enslaved to materialism, drive for status and dominance, resentment, addiction, lust, depression and fear. An eternal life is one that is free of these and other enslavements.

Would anyone else like to answer the questions that grannymh is not answering? Feel free to join us.

 

[grannymh]

I do wish you would respond to my posts, but I will respond to this anyway, because of the contradiction that can be seen (not everyone will see a contradiction).

I have responded to the majority of the content of your posts by providing the Catholic Church position, sometimes within a reply to another poster, sometimes in a general Post Reply such as post 106, and occasionally to your specific post. This has been done in a random order. I also take into account that some of the subject matter contains opinions about supporting topics so I may or may not comment.

However, there is one of your topics which I am still studying off CAF. That is the topic of conscience. In the meantime, I posted a recommendation to read post 40 above. Here is the valuable information by fhansen:
“Man’s nature involves more than a bunch of impulses, more or less selfish. We’re also created with a conscience, which means we’re morally responsible beings. And an aspect of that responsibility is that we’re obligated to be subjugated to God, in a relationship of mutual love. Although the conscience may be dimmed, obscured, compromised by the Fall, we remain obligated to align ourselves with the good, the obligation to know, love, and obey God is still part of our make up.”

Conscience came with human origin even though we do not normally speak about it in connection with pre-Original Sin. Perhaps the reason is that many, not all, people do not recognize the fully-complete human nature of Adam. I have some of my own questions about conscience and therefore I have chosen to discuss these off CAF before I discuss conscience on line.

Would anyone else like to answer the questions that grannymh is not answering? Feel free to join us.

This is a great idea. I would learn a lot from this. Thank you.

However, it is my choice not to answer personal questions like “Have you ever made an informed, free choice to refuse God’s offer?” in post 136.

 

[BobCatholic]

We are all conceived/born in the state of Original Sin; the sin of Adam.

Why are we held accountable for something someone did 1000s of years ago?

We are only held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. That’s why we are required to suffer and no longer live in the Garden of Eden.

We are not held spiritually responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. Jesus Christ took care of that, He paid the price.

Unfortunately, that redemption is not yet applied to our bodies. Romans 8.

God is like a trillionaire friend who is telling you about this awesome multimillion dollar mansion he has built and ready for you, with 24/7 maid service, delicious food, no pain, no suffering. This part is for real.

Unfortunately, there’s a catch. You have to survive here in this prison called life until he decides to send the ship to pick you up to deliver you to paradise. Until then you’re on your own without monetary help. You scrape and suffer to earn quarters to make phone calls to him, only to be told to be patient, and the ship is on its way. Please wire transfer me some money so I can survive until the…nope. Not a dime until the ship arrives.

 

[OneSheep]

We are only held temporally responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. That’s why we are required to suffer and no longer live in the Garden of Eden.

We are not held spiritually responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. Jesus Christ took care of that, He paid the price.

Unfortunately, that redemption is not yet applied to our bodies. Romans 8.

God is like a trillionaire friend who is telling you about this awesome multimillion dollar mansion he has built and ready for you, with 24/7 maid service, delicious food, no pain, no suffering. This part is for real.

Unfortunately, there’s a catch. You have to survive here in this prison called life until he decides to send the ship to pick you up to deliver you to paradise. Until then you’re on your own without monetary help. You scrape and suffer to earn quarters to make phone calls to him, only to be told to be patient, and the ship is on its way. Please wire transfer me some money so I can survive until the…nope. Not a dime until the ship arrives.

The problem, Bob, is the “paid the price” part. If God loves unconditionally, then His forgiveness is immediate. The notion that God held a grudge or found us in disfavor until He sent His Son is more in keeping with the workings of our conscience.

And speaking of conscience, to think of “life as a prison” is our conscience at work. I am with you on this, life can seem like a prison. But when life seems to be a prison, it is because there is some aspect of it that I resent. Complaint about our day is based on resentment, an emotion intricately tied to our conscience.

I have a lot to learn about being thankful for life and loving God’s gift of life, but I am grateful most of the time. It has been said, “God comes to you, disguised as your life.” There is a lot of wisdom in this. How is our relationship with life itself, and therefore, God? No need to answer… just there to stimulate thought, including mine.

 

[OneSheep]

However, it is my choice not to answer personal questions like “Have you ever made an informed, free choice to refuse God’s offer?” in post 136.

This question was asked to stimulate thinking; I was not looking for specifics. I stand by the assertion that no one ever makes an informed, free choice to refuse God’s offer. Take it as a challenge to search your own life and try to find a time that you behaved badly but were not blind or ignorant in some way. Such refusal doesn’t happen.

As long as I continue to condemn myself for behaving badly, I will project that God will do the same, even if the priest in front of me says “You have been forgiven” until he is blue in the face. Think about it, what is “salvation” in knowing that God forgives us, but our own conscience continues to torture us with guilt? But see, that is again the crux of the matter! How many threads have you seen in this forum from people who have gone to confession but still feel guilty? Many.

Jesus wants us to be free from the tyranny of the conscience that God gave us. Sure, the conscience is an invaluable gift from God, but like so many other aspects of our nature, it can be enslaving. The conscience enslaves us with condemnation of ourselves and others. The answer is forgiveness. Forgiveness is the path by which we come to realize that God is not the same as our conscience, that His love is much deeper than that.

Jesus showed us from the cross how to forgive. A person can look at his or her past sins and see how he or she was blind or ignorant, on a case by case basis. If he or she does not see it, then it is possible that the blindness is still there!

The crowd that hung Jesus was behaving from their conscience. The crowd that wanted to stone the adulterer was behaving from their conscience. Any time that we judge another person, out conscience is automatically reacting to something. Our conscience is not a “reasoned” thing, it is an automatic gut reaction. It is faster than reason.

Is this post bothering you? I understand, I am getting preachy. But that feeling of negativity is your conscience at work…

 

[BobCatholic]

The problem, Bob, is the “paid the price” part. If God loves unconditionally, then His forgiveness is immediate. The notion that God held a grudge or found us in disfavor until He sent His Son is more in keeping with the workings of our conscience.

Yes, spiritually, the forgiveness is immediate and full. But we are still temporally held responsible. Please take notice of the fact that neither of us is in the Garden of Eden.

It has been said, “God comes to you, disguised as your life.”

Life is not fair. Therefore God is not fair.
Life provides suffering and does so without any way around it. Therefore God must be a sadist.
There is a saying. “Nature never forgives” So if our life is here in nature, then there God does not forgive.

I totally disagree with that saying. It leads to the wrong conclusions.

 

[grannymh]

What we, as Adam’s descendants, need to learn and then put into practice —

is the truth of human nature —

that it is we who must love God unconditionally.

 

[fhansen]

Jesus wants us to be free from the tyranny of the conscience that God gave us. Sure, the conscience is an invaluable gift from God, but like so many other aspects of our nature, it can be enslaving. The conscience enslaves us with condemnation of ourselves and others. The answer is forgiveness. Forgiveness is the path by which we come to realize that God is not the same as our conscience, that His love is much deeper than that.

Jesus showed us from the cross how to forgive. A person can look at his or her past sins and see how he or she was blind or ignorant, on a case by case basis. If he or she does not see it, then it is possible that the blindness is still there!

The crowd that hung Jesus was behaving from their conscience. The crowd that wanted to stone the adulterer was behaving from their conscience. Any time that we judge another person, out conscience is automatically reacting to something. Our conscience is not a “reasoned” thing, it is an automatic gut reaction. It is faster than reason.

Is this post bothering you? I understand, I am getting preachy. But that feeling of negativity is your conscience at work…

Apparently some of the difference in thinking here comes from different concepts regarding conscience. In my understanding, OS can be thought of as that point when man- the self-sort of usurped power over his own conscience, disregarding or abusing the real God-given conscience which does indeed represent His voice in us. Once man is totally in control, determining good and evil for himself, then God is no longer in the picture-from man’s perspective at least. And this is just the very freedom God allowed man to take: the freedom to accept Him as his God, going along with the “Universal Order of Things”, so to speak, or, alternatively, to spurn Him. And this is why faith is considered to be such a critical first step: because God must become our God again in order for harmony and order to ultimately be restored, in order for His laws to be active in us again, for His voice to become clear as per my understanding of Jer 31, the New Covenant prophesies. Anyway, here are some excerpts from the catechism shedding light on the Church’s position on the conscience.

**1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.

1777 Moral conscience, present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil. It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

1776 “Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law.”

1962 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments. The precepts of the Decalogue lay the foundations for the vocation of man fashioned in the image of God; they prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbor and prescribe what is essential to it. The Decalogue is a light offered to the conscience of every man to make God’s call and ways known to him and to protect him against evil:

“God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.”
**
That last quote was from St Augustine.

 

[simpleas]

That is also a popular response to the question, “Without Original Sin, how could any person know that they have a true spiritual relationship with a transcendent, eternal Creator?” Thank you for bringing up that topic.

The difficulty is that Original Sin has many misunderstandings which do not make sense and that particular “because” one is one of them. The general [false] claim, with some variations, is that in order for humans to understand goodness of anything, including a spiritual relationship with God, they had to first experience evil, that is, they had to *first *eat the forbidden fruit.

One way to understand CCC 412 is to recall the difference between Adam and God. Adam as a human creature was as perfect as a human creature could be at the origin of humanity. Adam started out being peerless in his environment because not only was he material, he was spiritual which enabled Him to be in a true friendship relationship with his Creator.

Adam knew the difference between himself and God. It would be normal for Adam to admire God as superior to himself. It would also be normal to wonder how that superiority would feel. Even perfect people can envy. Satan’s temptation included envy of God and consequently a form of jealously and consequently Adam chose himself over and against God. Adam laid aside his own mastery of self and instead freely chose to go against the requirements of his creaturely status and thus disobey God in the hope of being like God but not in accord with God’s commandment for obedience. (CCC 378 & 398)

This is my very humble yet somewhat reasonable guess to your question about CCC 412. What St. Leo the Great seems to have had in mind was John 3: 16. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life.” CCC 378 opening sentence is: “The sign of man’s familiarity with God is that God places him in the garden.” The garden has ancient meanings, all good ones. But the garden did not have the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist which is the superb blessing we have today.

Thanks alot

 

[fhansen]

What we, as Adam’s descendants, need to learn and then put into practice —

is the truth of human nature —

that it is we who must love God unconditionally.

Yes. And, “We love Him because He first loved us.” 1John 4:19
Praise God.

 

[simpleas]

Apparently some of the difference in thinking here comes from different concepts regarding conscience. In my understanding, OS can be thought of as that point when man- the self-sort of usurped power over his own conscience, disregarding or abusing the real God-given conscience which does indeed represent His voice in us. Once man is totally in control, determining good and evil for himself, then God is no longer in the picture-from man’s perspective at least. And this is just the very freedom God allowed man to take: the freedom to accept Him as his God, going along with the “Universal Order of Things”, so to speak, or, alternatively, to spurn Him. And this is why faith is considered to be such a critical first step: because God must become our God again in order for harmony and order to ultimately be restored, in order for His laws to be active in us again, for His voice to become clear as per my understanding of Jer 31, the New Covenant prophesies. Anyway, here are some excerpts from the catechism shedding light on the Church’s position on the conscience.

**1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

Conscience is a law of the mind; yet [Christians] would not grant that it is nothing more; I mean that it was not a dictate, nor conveyed the notion of responsibility, of duty, of a threat and a promise. . . . [Conscience] is a messenger of him, who, both in nature and in grace, speaks to us behind a veil, and teaches and rules us by his representatives. Conscience is the aboriginal Vicar of Christ.

1777 Moral conscience, present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil. It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

1776 “Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths.”

1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law.”

1962 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments. The precepts of the Decalogue lay the foundations for the vocation of man fashioned in the image of God; they prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbor and prescribe what is essential to it. The Decalogue is a light offered to the conscience of every man to make God’s call and ways known to him and to protect him against evil:

“God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.”
**
That last quote was from St Augustine.

1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

This says to me (please correct me if i’m wrong) that we will either make a correct or incorrect decision about what is moral…I understand this. But,
what if the person has had their mind corrupted from an early age, doesn’t our conscience need to delevop as we grow more aware of ourselves and others, so if the conscience has been corrupted then do we make certain decisions by our own free will even then?

Thanks.

 

[fhansen]

1786 Faced with a moral choice, conscience can make either a right judgment in accordance with reason and the divine law or, on the contrary, an erroneous judgment that departs from them.

This says to me (please correct me if i’m wrong) that we will either make a correct or incorrect decision about what is moral…I understand this. But,
what if the person has had their mind corrupted from an early age, doesn’t our conscience need to delevop as we grow more aware of ourselves and others, so if the conscience has been corrupted then do we make certain decisions by our own free will even then?

Thanks.

Right, our wills aren’t totally corrupted but can be, more or less, depending on our backgrounds. Culpability is likewise different for this reason which is also why our culpability for sin is said to be dependent on our knowledge and deliberateness. Here are some more relevant CCC teachings:

**1798 A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience.

1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

1802 The Word of God is a light for our path. We must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. This is how moral conscience is formed.
**

 

[soma]

Original Sin is not in the Bible. It is a Catholic invention. I am Catholic just making an observation.

 

[fhansen]

Original Sin is not in the Bible. It is a Catholic invention. I am Catholic just making an observation.

Yep, and the word “Trinity” isn’t in the bible either. Much of our faith isn’t explicitly detailed or explained by scripture, which is why God has the church play such an important role in knowing and proclaiming His gospel.

 

[grannymh]

Original Sin is not in the Bible. It is a Catholic invention. I am Catholic just making an observation.

Original Sin is referred to in the first three chapters of Genesis and in Romans 5: 12-21 and in 1Corinthians 15: 21-22.

 

[OneSheep]

Apparently some of the difference in thinking here comes from different concepts regarding conscience. In my understanding, OS can be thought of as that point when man- the self-sort of usurped power over his own conscience, disregarding or abusing the real God-given conscience which does indeed represent His voice in us.

We can all think of instances where consciences are formed differently. A child who is beaten whenever he is vulnerable will form a conscience that says “never be vulnerable”. Such a child will grow up punishing vulnerability in others, “He never should have left his car unlocked.”

God gave us the appetites, and when we follow our appetites, empathy and even conscience is automatically bypassed. The problem is that the evolving human who found himself caught up in complicated decisions of conscience would not survive. Conscience has to be bypassed or reorganized when faced with an immediate need to protect oneself or steal something for the sake of one’s family.

I believe conscience is God given. Its content will be molded by our appetites, how others violate our wants and needs, and to some degree by reactions of our parents. Since we all have the same appetites, the most major aspects of the conscience are nearly universal. Thou shalt not steal, bear false witness, kill, etc.

Adam was not thinking about his conscience. He was thinking “I want that”, and was blind to all else, especially God’s feelings. When we choose to disobey the people we love, even when it may hurt them, we do so out of blindness.

God created us with a capacity for blindness. There is a very important evolutionary reason why automatic blindness has contributed to our survival as a species.

**1778 Conscience is a judgment of reason whereby the human person recognizes the moral quality of a concrete act that he is going to perform, is in the process of performing, or has already completed. In all he says and does, man is obliged to follow faithfully what he knows to be just and right. It is by the judgment of his conscience that man perceives and recognizes the prescriptions of the divine law:

…

“God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.”
**
That last quote was from St Augustine.

This idea that conscience is seated in reason is the Kantian approach, but studies in cognition do not support this. It is true that we do eventually apply reason to some moral decisions, but moral reactions come from more primitive parts of the brain, not from our “thinking” part, that is what research is showing. And, as I explained above, the conscience is formed by our experiences, sometimes with bizarre results.

So, Augustine was right, the Church has a role to play in conscience formation. However, we have no reason to believe that there was anything wrong with Adam’s conscience. God gave him the free will to choose against it, even giving Adam the capacity to be blind to his conscience.

 

[OneSheep]

Original Sin is not in the Bible. It is a Catholic invention. I am Catholic just making an observation.

We have to trust in the guidance of the Spirit in terms of doctrine. People like me can try to iron out the contradictions, but doctrine changes very slowly, and it should.

Keep in mind that Ireneaus first posited Original sin in the second century. The New Testament as we know it was compiled in during St. Augustine’s lifetime, in the 4th century.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes, spiritually, the forgiveness is immediate and full. But we are still temporally held responsible. Please take notice of the fact that neither of us is in the Garden of Eden.

Perhaps we are not in the Garden, but the existence of such is based on the literal interpretation of Genesis, which I do not ascribe to.

“temporarily held responsible” has a range of interpretation. Does God hold our sins against us? No. Should we, as a society, exact consequences for misbehaviors? Yes, this is the workings of our God-given conscience. My opinion, of course.

 

[grannymh]

I have been learning about “appetites’” and am finally used to the word as some kind of umbrella to cover a multiple of
humanly-desired actions in the same kind of way as the word conscience is used to cover both this and that actions. At least that is how the two words personally sound to me.

Since Original Sin is a real action in time and space by a real person at the dawn of human history, I thought it might be interesting to search out how conscience and appetites affect humanly-spirituality.

The first thing noted is that humans are created as unique creatures in that human nature is so designed to interact with God as the Creator of human nature. For those interested in human “conscience” here are two great links full of information.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11249889&postcount=143
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11249989&postcount=147

The following from CCC 1798 is a mini encyclopedia of fascinating facts.
**" **Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings."
Since we are talking about the first two real humans at the beginning of humankind, it should be obvious that the wisdom of the Creator formed their conscience. (Genesis 1: 26-27) Obviously, knowing right from wrong, (Genesis 2: 16-17) the first human could determine the goodness goal of his appetites. Granted it does take some tricky intellectual figuring to realize that the positive side of Genesis 2: 16-17 means that the first two humans in God’s special friendship were called to share in God’s life (Sanctifying Grace) not only in the Garden of Eden but also in the Garden of eternal happiness with God, Himself.

The nitty-gritty is that both human conscience and humanly-appetites basically seek union with the Creator. Interesting idea–perhaps the reason that humankind began in a garden-type setting is that it emphasized that the true goal of humanity is best envisioned in an environment void of the bells and whistles of technology. For us, living in post-Original Sin, being in the presence of the Real Presence of Jesus in the Catholic Eucharist is the best way to put aside technology’s wonders. Participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass brings us closer to God, than what Adam experienced, because we receive God in Holy Communion.

Original Sin, in addition to shattering humanity’s original relationship with divinity, resulted in a weakened human nature to be transmitted by that first loving couple to all their descendants. We now have to work at forming our spiritual conscience to be upright and truthful. As for our appetites, they willy-nilly seek all kinds of “good” things, some of which are not so good in reality. We have to bring those appetites back in line with God’s teachings to our first parents. “Man is dependent on his Creator and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.” (CCC 396 and CCC 311)

Link to* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition*
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm