Original Sin

[grannymh]

Control over himself, taking on the role of god, making his own determinations over what constitutes right and what constitutes wrong.

But Adam did have control of himself before he was tempted.

Adam was capable of determining what constitutes right and what constitutes wrong. It says that plainly in Genesis chapter 2 and again in chapter 3. Some people even see Adam’s superb intelligence in chapter 2.

Adam is created as “master over his acts.” (supplementary information in CCC, 1730. Please refer to CCC, 20-21) This is not the same as taking on the role of God. It is Adam understanding his own human nature. Consequently, Adam is dependent on his Creator.
(CCC, 396)

 

[fhansen]

But Adam did have control of himself before he was tempted.

Adam was capable of determining what constitutes right and what constitutes wrong. It says that plainly in Genesis chapter 2 and again in chapter 3. Some people even see Adam’s superb intelligence in chapter 2.

Adam is created as “master over his acts.” (supplementary information in CCC, 1730. Please refer to CCC, 20-21) This is not the same as taking on the role of God. It is Adam understanding his own human nature. Consequently, Adam is dependent on his Creator.
(CCC, 396)

And this gets back to the question: having the gift of self-mastery, why, then, did Adam sin?

**377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: *mastery of self. *The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.
**
Self-mastery is a gift of grace. To the extent that man remains in communion with God he retains this gift. But apart from God concupiscence is the unavoidable result. Adam’s act was a sin because he sought control at a higher level, beyond his creaturely status. When I spoke of Adam seeking to take control, I meant that he was subverting God’s role by denying Gods authority; Adam “wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”. He decided that he could determine morality for himself-he was right and God was wrong, he would be his own god, making his own rules. Adam was to know what was right and what was wrong; he was not to determine what was right and what was wrong-that’s the province of God.

 

[simpleas]

And this gets back to the question: having the gift of self-mastery, why, then, did Adam sin?

**377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: *mastery of self. ***The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.
Self-mastery is a gift of grace. To the extent that man remains in communion with God he retains this gift. But apart from God concupiscence is the unavoidable result. Adam’s act was a sin because he sought control at a higher level, beyond his creaturely status. When I spoke of Adam seeking to take control, I meant that he was subverting God’s role by denying Gods authority; Adam “wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”. He decided that he could determine morality for himself-he was right and God was wrong, he would be his own god, making his own rules. Adam was to know what was right and what was wrong; he was not to determine what was right and what was wrong-that’s the province of God.

This really does make Adam sound more than human to me…

Maybe its just because I have never been free from concupiscence even though I think I am with God.

Still, believing God would allow his humans to have to inhert O.S even after he sent his son will always confuse my pickled mind…

 

[grannymh]

This really does make Adam sound more than human to me…

Maybe its just because I have never been free from concupiscence even though I think I am with God.

Still, believing God would allow his humans to have to inhert O.S even after he sent his son will always confuse my pickled mind…

Would it help to know that Adam received original holiness and justice (harmony of the freedom from concupiscence) not for himself alone, but for all human nature? (CCC, 404) If yes, how would that information be helpful?

 

[fhansen]

This really does make Adam sound more than human to me…

Maybe its just because I have never been free from concupiscence even though I think I am with God.

Still, believing God would allow his humans to have to inhert O.S even after he sent his son will always confuse my pickled mind…

Maybe the hard lessons that came with Adam’s sin are good/beneficial ones for human beings to learn.

 

[fhansen]

As created, in his innocent state, Adam originally had self-mastery as one of the gifts God gave him. However, in breaking communion with God he lost that gift, among others. But God never abandoned man; there were lessons to be learned.

The Old Covenant = “OK, man, here’s the Law-this is what self-mastery “looks like”; see if you can achieve it now.” When the world was ready He made this covenant with the people He chose through which to bring salvation to the world.

The New Covenant=”OK, man, you’ve now had time to learn that you* cannot achieve self-mastery on your own, apart from Me, even if I show you what you ought *to do. I’m here to restore communion first of all, between you and Me, the Lord your God. Then I will place my Laws on your hearts and write them in your minds as you’ve come to recognize that that grace, that righteousness, comes from Me, alone, as you accept my forgiveness and the grace to be changed/molded into the beings I’ve created you to be.

The bottom-line message is that man must be- and remain in- communion with God in order to live: in order to truly know life, in order to live as he should, in order to have harmony with himself and others, in order for him to possess the absolute peace, happiness, and satisfaction he innately desires.

 

[grannymh]

As created, in his innocent state, Adam originally had self-mastery as one of the gifts God gave him. However, in breaking communion with God he lost that gift, among others. But God never abandoned man; there were lessons to be learned.

The Old Covenant = “OK, man, here’s the Law-this is what self-mastery “looks like”; see if you can achieve it now.” When the world was ready He made this covenant with the people He chose through which to bring salvation to the world.

The New Covenant=”OK, man, you’ve now had time to learn that you* cannot achieve self-mastery on your own, apart from Me, even if I show you what you ought *to do. I’m here to restore communion first of all, between you and Me, the Lord your God. Then I will place my Laws on your hearts and write them in your minds as you’ve come to recognize that that grace, that righteousness, comes from Me, alone, as you accept my forgiveness and the grace to be changed/molded into the beings I’ve created you to be.

The bottom-line message is that man must be- and remain in- communion with God in order to live: in order to truly know life, in order to live as he should, in order to have harmony with himself and others, in order for him to possess the absolute peace, happiness, and satisfaction he innately desires.

I like this, but…
a respectful correction needs to be made regarding the time frame. There is no “then.”

At the very beginning of human history, God placed His laws in the heart and mind of the very first humans, Adam and Eve. (please refer to CCC, 396, last sentence)

Links to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

 

[fhansen]

I like this, but…
a respectful correction needs to be made regarding the time frame. There is no “then.”

At the very beginning of human history, God placed His laws in the heart and mind of the very first humans, Adam and Eve. (please refer to CCC, 396, last sentence)

Links to the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

You’re right. But it’s not either/or so much as both/and due to the fact that the law was dimmed, obscured, compromised in us by the fall. So Augustine says this, “God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.”

And this is why we need the New Covenant, prophesied in Jer 31:
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

 

[simpleas]

Would it help to know that Adam received original holiness and justice (harmony of the freedom from concupiscence) not for himself alone, but for all human nature? (CCC, 404) If yes, how would that information be helpful?

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. **Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. **But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

Yep a mystery that can not be answered?

If it was a personal sin, why then does it be pasted on to the descendants?

Doesn’t it say somewhere in the bible that the sins of the father can not be pasted onto the son? (sorry I don’t know where that passage is)

The… it’s a state not an act… not sure I understand this…

We are in a state of the O.S but its not an act we can carry out?

 

[grannymh]

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. **Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. **But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

Yep a mystery that can not be answered?

If it was a personal sin, why then does it be pasted on to the descendants?

The word “but” which follows personal sin introduces the explanation of the Original Sin. “but this sin” presents the additional information tied to Adam personally committing the Original Sin.

 

[fhansen]

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. **Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. **But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

Yep a mystery that can not be answered?

If it was a personal sin, why then does it be pasted on to the descendants?

Doesn’t it say somewhere in the bible that the sins of the father can not be pasted onto the son? (sorry I don’t know where that passage is)

The… it’s a state not an act… not sure I understand this…

We are in a state of the O.S but its not an act we can carry out?

It’s a state, the main aspect of which is spiritual separation from God, the consequences of which we witness everyday in our newspapers and our world and ourselves, and a separation which Jesus came to reconcile and restore to unity.

 

[matthewfoust7]

This Bible app has a lot of the bible verses relating to original sin. Its really good check it out!

itunes.apple.com/us/app/bible-trivia/id722428405?mt=8

Bible ? Trivia for iPhone & ipad

 

[thegreatseeker]

Jesus said he suffered for your transgressions not because of Adam and Eve. Death was passed down from Adam and Eve and Jesus became the tree of life. Gen 3:22. With God all things are possible so this original sin thing is a joke in the face of a holy “God”. It is just people lack the faith in a God that can do all things and say well we have to have sin us.

ask yourself this question why is it all things are possible for God, but he is not able with all his glory can not take a mind of a person unto him and make it holy, as we are all with a double mind of good and Evil. The problem is people all walk with NO DESIRE to be without sin and they all say for some odd reason you have to have sin in you from Adam and eve when Jesus said he suffered FOR YOUR transgressions not theirs.

Have you ever asked God by faith who is holy and all wise and able to do all things God my savior can I be without sin and be called holy like you, for you say you are the only one good as per scripture, and the only one holy…I come with all I am surrendered unto your holy spirit to be made holy and without sin. Or have you bought into the devils lie that you have to have a sin nature in this world, and only when you leave here because he is a god can you be holy and without?

One of the strangest things I see is a God all alone the only one holy and righteous and good…A GOD.

 

[fhansen]

Jesus said he suffered for your transgressions not because of Adam and Eve. Death was passed down from Adam and Eve and Jesus became the tree of life. Gen 3:22. With God all things are possible so this original sin thing is a joke in the face of a holy “God”. It is just people lack the faith in a God that can do all things and say well we have to have sin us.

ask yourself this question why is it all things are possible for God, but he is not able with all his glory can not take a mind of a person unto him and make it holy, as we are all with a double mind of good and Evil. The problem is people all walk with NO DESIRE to be without sin and they all say for some odd reason you have to have sin in you from Adam and eve when Jesus said he suffered FOR YOUR transgressions not theirs.

Have you ever asked God by faith who is holy and all wise and able to do all things God my savior can I be without sin and be called holy like you, for you say you are the only one good as per scripture, and the only one holy…I come with all I am surrendered unto your holy spirit to be made holy and without sin. Or have you bought into the devils lie that you have to have a sin nature in this world, and only when you leave here because he is a god can you be holy and without?

One of the strangest things I see is a God all alone the only one holy and righteous and good…A GOD.

Catholicism teaches that we can be holy, with the help of grace, i.e. we can be who God intended us to be. The whole "sin nature " thing is more a Protestant notion than Catholic, generally including the belief that man is totally corrupted by the Fall, that concupiscence is original sin, IOW, i.e. that man is a “sin machine” so to speak, whereas Catholicism teaches that man simply fell to a “natural” state, without grace, without partnership with God.

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 4:48

**As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. 15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” **1 Pet 1:14-16

But Catholicism also teaches that we’re born with a proclivity to sin, having been separated from He apart from Whom we can do nothing-including refraining from sin. We must remain in Christ IOW, in order to be wholly who we were created to be. We were born spiritually dead, to put it one way, without immediate knowledge of our Creator, in need of being born again-or born from above-in need of reconciliation and so then, communion with the Father.

 

[thegreatseeker]

fhansen: I know what you teach and so do the protestants. But we all serve a God that can do all things and he is a God that is holy and righteous and he is a God…is a GOD. To say you have to have a sin nature unto a holy God is to say God is weak. Say this to me sense you preach it to me we have a proclivity to sin. THAT YOU LOVE TO SIN. See my faith is the devil has all your ears. YOU ALL SERVE A GOD…but have to proclivity to sin. A God…proclivity to sin. Makes no sense to me, to a God that says he can do all things but with all his wisdom not able to change you. The thing is you have never asked God. Say this to me, I have to proclivity to sin God for you are unwise God and I have come to learn how to be holy but I realize with all your greatness you fall short of the glory of a God/?You can not can you??..or can you??

Have you ever come before God and asked saying what I said in my past post?? God, you are the only one holy and righteous and good, my MIND IS HERE BEFORE YOU GOD???or do you just say as the devil pats you on the back proclivity to sin and we serve the devil?

YOu can not child have 2 minds. You either serve a God that is able or a God that is proclivity and it is human nature and he is unable?

and you are correct without the knowledge of God it is impossible… hence I said have you asked for such wisdom??

 

[fhansen]

fhansen: I know what you teach and so do the protestants. But we all serve a God that can do all things and he is a God that is holy and righteous and he is a God…is a GOD. To say you have to have a sin nature unto a holy God is to say God is weak. Say this to me sense you preach it to me we have a proclivity to sin. THAT YOU LOVE TO SIN. See my faith is the devil has all your ears. YOU ALL SERVE A GOD…but have to proclivity to sin. A God…proclivity to sin. Makes no sense to me, to a God that says he can do all things but with all his wisdom not able to change you. The thing is you have never asked God. Say this to me, I have to proclivity to sin God for you are unwise God and I have come to learn how to be holy but I realize with all your greatness you fall short of the glory of a God/?You can not can you??..or can you??

Have you ever come before God and asked saying what I said in my past post?? God, you are the only one holy and righteous and God, my MIND IS HERE BEFORE YOU GOD???or do you just say as the devil pats you on the back proclivity to sin and we serve the devil?

YOu can not child have 2 minds. You either serve a God that is able or a God that is proclivity and it is human nature and he is unable?

I don’t don’t think you understand my position, or the Catholic position, after all. The proclivity to sin comes from our being free moral agents, with all the various desires and appetites and passions innate to man, but lacking communion with God. To be born from above means communion is reestablished, so God can, indeed, change us as we’re now turned back to Him. This doesn’t mean that we’ll necessarily stop sinning all at once, that we won’t “struggle with sin” at times. Because God seeks to draw us, willingly, into righteousness, into alignment with His will, without forcing us. Otherwise He could’ve simply prevented Adam, as well as his descendants, from sinning to begin with.

 

[thegreatseeker]

fhansen:

But what about if your free moral agents is like myself and want to be holy as God and righteous and pure?As that is my free will and I am here before him all surrendered.

are you sure you are free moral agents??, or just people slaved to sin saved from hell from the grace of God? Do not forget where you have your righteousness from, from a God that beat the living life out of his son, and hung him up on a tree, to have you all look at him and say wow he can rise and any that believe in his name would be saved. And maybe Adam was tested to learn that God is God and he speaks the truth. BUT God was angry that the world continued to sin as with Adam. HE would not force you to stop but in a A WAY HE DOES, as he threatens you all to hell.

See my faith is, he tested adam with the snake I am sure knowing he would fall but has a tree of life Gen 3:22. To save him from death to teach him that he is God and is always the truth, if Adam I am sure pleaded before God to not sin anymore or the rest of the world he would have partaken of the tree of life. BUT sense you are all free moral agents going straight to hell God with love prepared a sacrifice.

again say to me, God with all his wisdom and power is not able to set a man free from sin, but can send his son to a cross???Not meaning at all to be blasphemous, just I am a man that earnestly seeks to be holy AS God.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen:

But what about if your free moral agents is like myself and want to be holy as God and righteous and pure?As that is my free will and I am here before him all surrendered.

are you sure you are free moral agents??, or just people slaved to sin saved from hell from the grace of God? Do not forget where you have your righteousness from, from a God that beat the living life out of his son, and hung him up on a tree, to have you all look at him and say wow he can rise and any that believe in his name would be saved. And maybe Adam was tested to learn that God is God and he speaks the truth. BUT God was angry that the world continued to sin as with Adam. HE would not force you to stop but in a A WAY HE DOES, as he threatens you all to hell.

See my faith is, he tested adam with the snake I am sure knowing he would fall but has a tree of life Gen 3:22. To save him from death to teach him that he is God and is always the truth, if Adam I am sure pleaded before God to not sin anymore or the rest of the world he would have partaken of the tree of life. BUT sense you are all free moral agents going straight to hell God with love prepared a sacrifice.

again say to me, God with all his wisdom and power is not able to set a man free from sin, but can send his son to a cross???Not meaning at all to be blasphemous, just I am a man that earnestly seeks to be holy AS God.

You might try to explain your position a little more clearly, without sentences running into other ones. Just a suggestion to make discussion easier-if you really want to discuss, that is. Of course God can change us-righteousness comes from Him, alone-that’s what we’re here to learn! But He’ll never force us-force us to accept, let alone love, Him. And coming to love Him, as well as neighbor, is what our faith is all about, because that’s what our justice consists of-what justifies, or makes us, just. Love is the righteousness of God, the righteousness He wants for man, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are, BTW.

 

[thegreatseeker]

ya my English sucks…only language I know.

it is just I see a God the only one holy and righteous WHY? he is a God? the world is in sin, NONE ARE HOLY AS GOD AND RIGHTEOUS. We all know he can teach us his ways and how to be holy as him and righteous or at least I do. I have free will to be holy and righteous, but the world is sinners in their own ways saying like you original sin, saying it is human nature to sin and only God can be holy and righteous and God will not force us…but he will throw us into hell if we are not holy as him…will not force us…cast us into the lake of fire…,.will not force us…burn forever and ever.

MY GOD forces me to fear him and he is holy and righteous and the only one. SO I am here to be holy as him and righteous. While the rest of the world says they have free will straight to the fires of hell with no fear of a God being the only one holy and righteous…saved by the blood and his love.

 

[fhansen]

ya my English sucks…only language I know.

it is just I see a God the only one holy and righteous WHY? he is a God? the world is in sin, NONE ARE HOLY AS GOD AND RIGHTEOUS. We all know he can teach us his ways and how to be holy as him and righteous or at least I do. I have free will to be holy and righteous, but the world is sinners in their own ways saying like you original sin, saying it is human nature to sin and only God can be holy and righteous and God will not force us…but he will throw us into hell if we are not holy as him…will not force us…cast us into the lake of fire…,.will not force us…burn forever and ever.

**MY GOD forces me to fear him and he is holy and righteous and the only one. SO I am here to be holy as him and righteous. While the rest of the world says they have free will straight to the fires of hell with no fear of a God being the only one holy and righteous…saved by the blood and his love.

So you can’t sin? Anyway, it’s not human nature to sin-God didn’t create sinners or else He’d be the author of sin/evil . The doctrine of OS simply says that man can’t keep from sinning apart from grace, apart from God.