Pandemic 2020: Layoff Related Deaths Exceed COVID-19 Deaths By 41%

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NO, everyone wear a mask because everyone could be positive. If you are positive, stay at home isolated from everyone.
I wear one because there might be others that are positive. It is just common sense
In general, I think this is inevitable
It has to be.
I wish that the US government had done more to prepare for the eventual opening, but I think with this administration that is too much to ask for.
I think the administration has done excellent work under the circumstances. I think our governors have, too, by and large. But, then, I don’t see a place for political opportunism in this crisis. Some do, on both sides.
 
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JButky:
There is a lot of reason to suggest that not only did the shelter at home policies not work
Have any handy? It worked perfectly where I live.
What worked where you live? That means zero…

It is quite well known that staying at home weakens your immune system making you more susceptible to the virus… Not too mention, indulging in bad dieting habits, and all sorts of other things that weaken the main defense against the virus. Most doctors will tell you that Vitamin D helps to active your immune system. Vitamin D deficiency, suppresses your immune system. The sun is an excellent source of Vitamin D too. Shelter in place… weaken your immune system and make yourself more susceptible to a virus that loves autoimmune deficiencies. This strategy has been a disaster!!! I have no kind words for the stupidity out there, so I will remain silent in that regard. 🤐

Then there is the whole bunch of info that also shows that exposure to daily bacteria strengthens your immune system. You need good bacteria to help fight off bad bacteria…

As someone who has made immense progress in the last couple of years healing my body and strengthening my immune system (after a scare that put me in the hospital), hearing these measures being touted made my blood boil…


As an essential worker with many other essential workers in my household who have been diligently working at being healthy (including strengthening your immune system, which goes hand it hand with the rest of it), these recommendations from the government appear to me as not only moronic, but dangerous as Cuomo and others are also now discovering.

And we’ve wrecked the economy pursuing a tactic that is categorically based on misidentifying where protection needs to be and how it needs to be applied.

These people are fools…
 
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I wear one because there might be others that are positive. It is just common sense
Jon, you can continue to think that, but unless it’s an N95 it won’t help you.
But, then, I don’t see a place for political opportunism in this crisis. Some do, on both sides.
It’s not political opportunism. I wish that Trump had stepped up and led us through this. I really do. I’d rather that I would have to begrudgingly give him props for saving lives rather than be appalled at him for doing nothing but touting his ratings and encouraging people to protest against his administrations guidelines.
 
Layoff related death estimates? Now there is a reliable estimate. Lol
I get the difficulty with Covid related because we know the insufficiency of testing. But layoff related? What about less traffic accidents. Do you subtract?
Yes, you should subtract. Do not dismiss this research lightly. The correlation between economic stress and suicide is real. Whether you agree with the conclusions or not, the point is that Cuomo’s math where a life saved from this virus is infinitely valuable (and it is), making any sacrifice worth it, ignores a lot of data about the downside to a crashed economy. We must have balanced solutions. The United States cannot afford to carry New York State like some dead beat kid moving back to his parents.

This article shows how we must balance economic concerns with medical concerns. This should have been the priority during the lockdown, not just spend it waiting it out. Our greatest failure may not be the lockdown, but the lack of progress during that time. We should be able to test a million people a day by now, and enough PPE for all. That is the key to having our cake and eating it too.
 
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Jon, you can continue to think that, but unless it’s an N95 it won’t help you.
It will if I’m not up close. Mitigations.
It’s not political opportunism.
Of course it is. Trump has done an excellent job with this. He has allowed the experts to lead in the decisions. They said so. It might not have been the right choices, but he showed true leadership in following their advice. He’s done a fantastic job in mobilizing the production of PPE’s, ventilators, hospital beds, etc. Not once has there been a shortage in these. Leftist governors like Cuomo and Newsom have said so.
He has led a full effort to find a vaccine and therapeutics.
His leadership has been exemplary. By and large, our governors have done a good job, Whitmer my one exception.

These people have faced the 2020 version of the Kobayashi Maru, the no-win scenario.
Only this time, one can’t change the computer program.

For some, Trump wouldn’t have done enough had he invented a cure on his lap top the second day. He would have been attacked as racist befit didn’t cure sickle cell, too.
 
Let’s make it simple.
They said don’t wear masks when there weren’t enough. Obviously they made a decision there would be nobody to treat anyone in hospitals if they didn’t.
In Taiwan they all wore masks day one. They have like zero infection.
Their point was more fine. The benefit of wearing masks is not to yourself, it is to others. They always said this.
If there is a disaster, it is the fault of those who ignored the CDC.
TRUMP is actively working to get the CDC to change its policy. So I will leave open that they can be corrupted. We will find out.
Who knows, maybe people will be cured by social interaction. Or maybe many will die.
 
Of course it is. Trump has done an excellent job with this. He has allowed the experts to lead in the decisions. They said so.
Believe what you want, Jon, and I’ll believe what I want.

This is not the Kobayashi Maru scenario. It’s not a no-win situation.

We can rescue as many people from the ship (the US) as we can without being destroyed by the Klingons (convid-19). Destruction is not inevitable. We can win by saving as many people as possible by keeping healthcare workers safe, by keeping food on the table, by helping out those out of work, and by managing the risk of being out in public.

Unfortunately, Trump has not been a Captain James T Kirk in all of this. He’s been blaming and berating the former Captain, lying about orders he’s given to people on the ship, not listening to Dr McCoy , who, even though he’s only a country doctor is very smart, has gotten on the ship’s intercom to talk about how well he’s doing, and telling Spock he’s in charge and then hijacking every meeting Spock tries to have.

It’s really quite illogical.
 
Let’s make it simple.
They said don’t wear masks when there weren’t enough.
No, they said to not wear masks. They said we don’t need them.
Obviously they made a decision there would be nobody to treat anyone in hospitals if they didn’t.
In Taiwan they all wore masks day one. They have like zero infection.
Wow. Conspiracy theory much?
So, who made that choice?
Let me guess. Trump.
Their point was more fine. The benefit of wearing masks is not to yourself, it is to others. They always said this.
If there is a disaster, it is the fault of those who ignored the CDC.
You’re making no sense. Let me see.
It was the CDC that said don’t wear masks.
But if you wear masks, they knew it would decrease cases and they wanted there to be be more cases?
But if you don’t follow the CDC ( who said don’t wear masks), it is the fault of those who didn’t follow the CDC?
Huh?
TRUMP is actively working to get the CDC to change its policy. So I will leave open that they can be corrupted. We will find out.
Which policy? To not wear masks or to wear masks? And is it your point that you imagine Trump wants more people hospitalized and the great economy he planned to run on destroyed to help his re-election?
Who knows, maybe people will be cured by social interaction. Or maybe many will die.
I thought you knew.
 
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This is not the Kobayashi Maru scenario. It’s not a no-win situation.
So, you know exactly what to do to keep people from dying, not put the country $7 trillion more in debt, and not close the economy? Please share.
We can rescue as many people from the ship (the US) as we can without being destroyed by the Klingons (convid-19). Destruction is not inevitable. We can win by saving as many people as possible by keeping healthcare workers safe, by keeping food on the table, by helping out those out of work, and by managing the risk of being out in public.
You forgot to mention the engine that funds the government effort to save lives: the frat American free enterprise system. That’s taking a skunking by the shutdown, and that’s where the money comes from.
The money has to come from somewhere.

not listening to Dr McCoy , who, even though he’s only a country doctor is very smart,
Unless you are calling McCoy a liar, he has followed their suggestions. They said so.
telling Spock he’s in charge and then hijacking every meeting Spock tries to have.
I know. He stole the election with Putin’s help, but officially he is the president. It is his meeting, not Pence’s. Spock knew the logic of the chain of command.
 
The correlation between economic stress and suicide is real
I absolutely believe this. I realize it’s anecdotal, but I know some people who have gotten nearly “crazy” self-isolating at home. I think people are better off out in society even with the risks involved.
We should be able to test a million people a day by now,
Maybe. But I think that’s a very tall order, even assuming reliable test kits are available in sufficient number.

I spoke to a person today whose company has a very large number of employees. They have tested every single one of them, having bought the test kits directly from the manufacturer. They turned up no cases in most of their plants, but some in others.

It wasn’t easy for the company, but it wasn’t extremely difficult either. They have their own nursing staff in each plant, and have the employees “captured” in each shift. They simply shut departments down in turn to get everybody tested in each shift.

Who is going to do that with the population at large? My county (and I think surrounding counties) has drive-through mobile testing performed by the county Health Department. Some people go through them, but most people don’t. Unless the county commission enlarges the sheriff’s department personnel and go door to door hauling people to the mobile facilities, it seems to me there is little possibility that the whole population or even most of it is going to get tested. And if you’re asymptomatic, what’s your motivation to do it?

In the meanwhile, if, indeed there are three nonsymptomatic cases for every symptomatic one, Covid 19 will eventually go through the population without being noticed except at the fringes. Those fringes are scary, and no doubt about it. But I think we’re actually going to have a lot more luck encouraging people to maintain distance, wash hands, even wear masks when close situations can’t be avoided, and try to keep up general health, and providing special protection to vulnerable populations, than we are going to have in attempting mass testing.
 
Everyone recalls when we had a giant shortage of masks and hospital workers and first responders had trouble getting them.
Frankly if you don’t recall that I won’t loose sleep.
There was no conspiracy there was a crisis.
There was a time when there wasn’t enough masks. A shortage. And they created priorities.
Trump seeks to relax the policy regarding reduction of new infection and number of days in a row that reduction takes place.
Right now states are opening while infection is increasing, not decreasing( save for NY which is slowly decreasing)
 
Everyone recalls when we had a giant shortage of masks and hospital workers and first responders had trouble getting them.
I recall that most of the masks in the government stockpile from before Trump were no good. It was then discovered that Chinese-made newer masks weren’t either. I recall that a number of manufactories, including garment makers were encouraged (and paid) by the government to make masks as soon as possible. I recall that New York had previously sold off its supply; to China I believe. Other countries in the world had terrible shortages of masks, including Italy which had GIVEN masks to China only to have China charge for them when Italy needed them back.
 
If they ever had a loyal subject award, I would sponsor you with your post.
I spoke about the shortage and our necessary policy to make hospital workers a priority.
You gave me a why Trump is not at fault list.
Maybe you forgot or didn’t see the posts.
 
Everyone recalls when we had a giant shortage of masks and hospital workers and first responders had trouble getting them.
Everyone recalls how there were fears that there would not be enough masks. But if you want to blame governors around the country, and current and past presidents for not being able to predict the future, just be my guest.
Frankly if you don’t recall that I won’t loose sleep.
Yes, didn’t you warn us about the shortage right here on CAF last August?
Trump seeks to relax the policy regarding reduction of new infection and number of days in a row that reduction takes place.
Trump regularly makes recommendations. He also regularly listens to his experts. I’m happy we have a president who is balancing both the physical health and the economic health of the nation.
Right now states are opening while infection is increasing, not decreasing( save for NY which is slowly decreasing)
Those governors are responding to what they believe are the balanced needs of their people.
If you don’t like what yours is doing, call his/her office.
 
First, with respect to masks, no defense shell for Trump needed. My point was not a blame. ( Yours initially might have been).
When you start riffing about August and who is responsible for a shortage, you depart from the conversation.
My point was doctors making practical tactical choices of message based upon the situation on the ground. The mask don’t wear/ then wear change of message coincided with more masks coming into the system.
My warning is a silly form of argument. It is not my field, or job. It’s like," If you think the heart surgeon did a bad job let’s see you do better." Hopefully you can identify what is wrong with that statement.
Finally, in terms of our reaction to the virus, including government and citizens, I think we did a terrible job.
I look at Taiwan who did a great job and I judge our performance against theirs, same as any other competitive idea.
Their leadership frankly dwarfed ours in having a clear plan and efficient timely implementation. Our government was asleep at the wheel in comparison. They took it much more serious early on.
Assisting their government, they had consent of the people. Something our leaders did not have to work with initially. Our people leave a lot to be desired in terms of acting as a people. We talk a good game about patriotism and certainly nationalism, but in practice, we are every man for himself, and in terms of nationalism, we can’t even boast it because we are an us and them nation of tribes.
Only when money and life is threatened, do we fall into any notion of one people, and then only till the coast is clear or personal wealth is at issue.
So our leaders had to have our people receptive as Cuomo suggested and I get that. Trump faced that problem but frankly words like hoax are the opposite of what we need
 
I spoke to a person today whose company has a very large number of employees. They have tested every single one of them, having bought the test kits directly from the manufacturer.
I will also add that this sort of data is important to the modeling of a disease. Such testing ventures can provide real insight into how common a disease is in those not tested, being asymptomatic. I know it is a tall order, but it is critical to safely opening everything back to normal ASAP.
I recall that most of the masks in the government stockpile from before Trump were no good.
Let me throw in a free tip, as I could not find this anywhere. I like the pouch style N95 from some company I cannot remember. However, being disposable, yet having to reuse them. After awhile, they got rather linty, as in you started feeling the cotton/paper stuff fluffing around your nose. I ordered a $20 lint remover (like a circular shaver). It actually works. It makes the masks feel like new. So a little bleach water and lint removal, they feel like a new mask. I know with time they might lose effectiveness, but they seem to not be losing any thickness the first few times anyway.

Free tip for the day.
 
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JButky:
What worked where you live? That means zero…
Zero? Nonsense.
“What” as in you didn’t define “it” and without that context “worked” has no meaning…


Too many people with their heads in the sand for no good reasons.
 
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I will also add that this sort of data is important to the modeling of a disease. Such testing ventures can provide real insight into how common a disease is in those not tested, being asymptomatic. I know it is a tall order, but it is critical to safely opening everything back to normal ASAP.
I still don’t see how it can be done other than through some kind of coercion. Tests can be offered, but I would hazard to say most people with no symptoms are not going to take them. They’ll just assume they’re not infected and go about their lives. But even if they do it “just in case” they might be among the majority of asymptomatic carriers, what does it tell them? That they’re not infected today. Tomorrow might be a different story.
 
First, with respect to masks, no defense shell for Trump needed. My point was not a blame. ( Yours initially might have been).
Are you sure? I’m not defending Trump or the governors in this area. I’m defending their integrity by assuming they have made choices with limited information with the best interests of Americans at heart.
My point was doctors making practical tactical choices of message based upon the situation on the ground. The mask don’t wear/ then wear change of message coincided with more masks coming into the system.
They said we don’t need them. That’s the obvious fact. As I said, it may have been the only truly damaging decision, but again, they acted with limited knowledge. Do the best they could.
My warning is a silly form of argument. It is not my field, or job. It’s like," If you think the heart surgeon did a bad job let’s see you do better." Hopefully you can identify what is wrong with that statement.
Oh, you are welcome to your opinion, but it is based on 20-20 hindsight. You are expecting them to have acted then with the knowledge we have now. I think that’s unfair.
Finally, in terms of our reaction to the virus, including government and citizens, I think we did a terrible job.
More 20-20 hindsight. Again, you are holding governors and the president to what we know today. I’m unwilling to do that, even to
Politicians I can’t stand politically like Cuomo.
I look at Taiwan who did a great job and I judge our performance against theirs, same as any other competitive idea.
There is a rural county here in NC not too far from where I live that has zero confirmed cases. By your standard, they have done a much better job than de blasio because he has thousands and thousands of cases.
The comparison you make doesn’t hold for numerous demographic reason, just like the one I just made.
 
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