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Franciscum
Guest
That’s very heterodox of you. Are many “traditionalists” that heterodox?
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O
OrthoCath
Guest
Franciscum,
Since when did the Traditional Liturgy not become “Traditional”?
Since when did the Traditional Liturgy not become “Traditional”?
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
I didn’t contradict myself and you are perfectly aware of that. I meant that I wished to hear the priest. Look, no one is on this thread defending abuses to the Pauline Mass. Some people here seem to imply that the TLM will replace the Pauline Mass. Cardinal Arinze, at least, said the Mass of Paul VI wasn’t going anywhere. I have said repeatedly that the Indult should be generously applied. You have no beef with me, unless you claim the Pauline Mass to be invalid, or less than reverent in and of itself (that would be a subjective opinion, anyway, and the weight of Church authority might just contradict that). I have never attended a less than reverent Pauline Mass, but I’m a Catholic from a conservative part of the US with a large number of Hispanic believers. Maybe I’m just lucky. My point was I don’t wish to go to a TLM, but you should certainly be able to if you wish, as long as it isn’t a forum for denouncing the Second Vatican Council and the Mass of Paul VI. Any rite of the Mass can be abused. Read "Martin Luther: The Christian Between God and Death, by Marius, who also wrote what many consider the definitive biography of Saint Thomas More. Very balanced, the Church comes out very well in his summations. In it, however, he writes about Luther’s experience in trying to say Mass when he was in Rome with an Augustinian delegation. The priests around him made jokes of the Latin language, knowing the common folk wouldn’t be able to understand, he was trying to celebrate reverently and the priests behind him were hissing, “Get on, get on!” as they waited to say their masses. Man can muck up just about anything and make a joke out of it. That’s why we must make reparation to Our Lord in the Eucharist for the abuses He suffers.
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
See, the problem is you don’t know me and you’ve no idea how I can be made happy. Here, let me help you with a little information: *** I support the Indult, I support the Indult, I support the Indult.*** I’ve said it 3 times, as I say to my 4th grade students, now let’s see who listened. I haven’t suppressed anyone, I’m not afraid of vocations in the TLM rising to outnumber "ours. For one thing, unless you are SSPX, “you” are “me” and “we” are “us.” We are Catholics! For another, I’m not afraid because Our Lord and Savior said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church. I don’t have anything to be afraid of. I agree that there must be abuses in the Mass, as there are so many examples of them on this website. Those abuses should be corrected, with gentle fraternal correction where possible, with a stern rebuke where needed. I’m simply sick of the implication that the Mass of Paul VI is insufficient or flawed in and of itself, as so many seemingly radical traditionalists on this site seem to imply.
If you are truly Catholic then you would embrace us because,? I think in your heart of hearts, you KNOW how wrong you were to say this. May Christ draw your heart into the depths of His Own Most Sacred Heart.
K
katolik
Guest
You were alive in 1850??? Before Dom Gueranger, wrote his book the Liturgical Year. Wow, I am amazed.
Now, do you know that the USA was not very receptive to the Liturgical Movement[but not to the Liturgical Revolution of the 1960’s] but the rest of the CHurch was a different story. COme on in France,Germany, and other parts of Europe the Mass Ordinary parts had been chanted and sung by the people for centuries. An american and irish regional problem was not a world wide problem.
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Franciscum
Guest
The “Traditional Liturgy?” You mean that which was celebrated in the early church that is a whole lot more like the Novus Ordo Mass than the Tridentine Mass?
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OrthoCath
Guest
Franciscum,
Wow who told you that? Most Archealogical Evidence suggest the things like Facing East, etc… were more a part of the ancient Church then we once believe. In fact, the Church recently found in Aqaba, I believe, faced east.
Second point, lets say you are correct the first Masses were just like the Novus Ordo. Why then did the Church change into what we know as the TLM? The Church evolves She does not revert. Perhaps the Bishops at the Pastoral Council we Know as Vatican II had listen to the Early Church Fathers more then we would not have Renovate the Renovations we are constantly doing today. Even Cardinal Ratzinger has come out against Facing the People and Communion in the Hand. See: ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/RATZINTV.HTM
and
adoremus.org/0203CommunionHand.html (Not the Best Link But I didn’t want to waste time looking his quote up)
So, if lets say Cardinal Ratzinger became Pope tomorrow and said the Novus Ordo had to Face East, Be said in Latin Like Vatican II said, and the faithful must receive in the tongue, etc… Then what is the point of the Novus Ordo? Quicker Faster Mass?
Wow who told you that? Most Archealogical Evidence suggest the things like Facing East, etc… were more a part of the ancient Church then we once believe. In fact, the Church recently found in Aqaba, I believe, faced east.
Second point, lets say you are correct the first Masses were just like the Novus Ordo. Why then did the Church change into what we know as the TLM? The Church evolves She does not revert. Perhaps the Bishops at the Pastoral Council we Know as Vatican II had listen to the Early Church Fathers more then we would not have Renovate the Renovations we are constantly doing today. Even Cardinal Ratzinger has come out against Facing the People and Communion in the Hand. See: ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/RATZINTV.HTM
and
adoremus.org/0203CommunionHand.html (Not the Best Link But I didn’t want to waste time looking his quote up)
So, if lets say Cardinal Ratzinger became Pope tomorrow and said the Novus Ordo had to Face East, Be said in Latin Like Vatican II said, and the faithful must receive in the tongue, etc… Then what is the point of the Novus Ordo? Quicker Faster Mass?
K
Kielbasi
Guest
Whether or not the new English mass was a “mistake” or not, that’s what we have today. That’s what we’ll , without a doubt , continue to have.
Most people who are in attendance like it the way it is. Those who don’t quit attending a long time ago, and even if Latin were brought back they wouldn’t know it anyhow. Either that or they’re dead by now, the Latin mass was discontinued over 30 years ago.
As far as the “indult” mass, for those who are devoted to it and don’t mind the travel to different churches and chapels, I guess its o.k., although I strongly suspect that the indult masses will become less available in the future.
Most dioceses will not be able to afford to take the priests away from parish work to provide this option, as the average age of priests is quite high and many will be retiring in the next few years with a relative few replacements.
Most people who are in attendance like it the way it is. Those who don’t quit attending a long time ago, and even if Latin were brought back they wouldn’t know it anyhow. Either that or they’re dead by now, the Latin mass was discontinued over 30 years ago.
As far as the “indult” mass, for those who are devoted to it and don’t mind the travel to different churches and chapels, I guess its o.k., although I strongly suspect that the indult masses will become less available in the future.
Most dioceses will not be able to afford to take the priests away from parish work to provide this option, as the average age of priests is quite high and many will be retiring in the next few years with a relative few replacements.
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Franciscum
Guest
You’re quite mistaken. The priest faced any way he could, particularly in the catacombs. The Mass was celebrated in the vernacular. Vestments didn’t look like bulletproof vests – they looked more like the vestments of today. No bells in the early church. No communion ailing either, etc. etc. etc. etc.
That’s why the Novus Ordo Mass has replaced the Tridentine Mass.
You seem to be confused about orientation. Most “tradionalists” seem more focused on having their priest’s back face them than actually facing east…
BTW, 25 minute Tridentine Masses were quite common before V2.
O
OrthoCath
Guest
Kielbasi,
You are so wrong in EVERY account.
FACT: In the Traditional Societys Vocations are WAY up. For example, in the FSSP they had to turn away some vocations because of the lack of room!
FACT: Over all wherever the indult is given there are whole families who attend faithfully. In some cases many (thousands) of Children have never heard or seen a Novus Ordo Mass.
The Latin Mass is growing not only in Vocations but also in attendance.
(see: seattlecatholic.com/article_20040119_pr.html)
If you have not read up on the happenings in the TLM world perhaps these links would help you:
institute-christ-king.org/
fssp.org/
latin-mass-society.org/
The statisics might shock you…
You are so wrong in EVERY account.
FACT: In the Traditional Societys Vocations are WAY up. For example, in the FSSP they had to turn away some vocations because of the lack of room!
FACT: Over all wherever the indult is given there are whole families who attend faithfully. In some cases many (thousands) of Children have never heard or seen a Novus Ordo Mass.
The Latin Mass is growing not only in Vocations but also in attendance.
(see: seattlecatholic.com/article_20040119_pr.html)
If you have not read up on the happenings in the TLM world perhaps these links would help you:
institute-christ-king.org/
fssp.org/
latin-mass-society.org/
The statisics might shock you…
F
Franciscum
Guest
Says who, you?
F
Franciscum
Guest
Your posting illustrates perfectly why many people view “traditionalists” as nothing but dividers. Dividers who do nothing but harm the Church…
K
Kielbasi
Guest
The fact is that Lat(name removed by moderator)hiles are a relatively small group as opposed to Catholics as a whole.
The other fact is that the number of active priests is declining overall.
I think the time will come (soon) when some bishops will have no choice but to transfer at least some of priests from Latin duty to ordinary parish work to maintain coverage in the parishes, even if they attended a Latin seminary.
The other fact is that the number of active priests is declining overall.
I think the time will come (soon) when some bishops will have no choice but to transfer at least some of priests from Latin duty to ordinary parish work to maintain coverage in the parishes, even if they attended a Latin seminary.
J
James0235
Guest
You stated that you thought it was “too bad” that the indult wasn’t available earlier so the Tridentine Mass would have died out.
And then you accused katolik of lying when he mentioned what you said.
So, there are 2 things that should happen now:
#1 You should stop being such a jerk.
and
#2 You should apologize to katolik.
Your other comments are basically nonsense and immaterial.You said something and then accused someone of lying when they brought up what you said. And now you are getting defensive after being called on your actions. Either retract your statement that you wish the Tridentine Mass had died out or apologize to katolik for accusing him (her?) of lying about you saying that. Christian charity demands it. It’s that simple.
James
R
rayne89
Guest
Can I put my :twocents: in here? I’m sure the TLM is beautiful, I’ve never been to one but I’d like to someday. And I agree the NO Mass can definately get over run with abuses but…
The church I attend has the NO the way it was supposed to be and it is awesome. It feels like heaven on earth. If the rules are followed the NO can be a beautiful experience, the problem is the *rules aren’t followed. *If the Mass is good enough for the pope, it’s good enough for me.
Divide and conquer, that’s the devil’s favorite mode of operation. We shouldn’t be doing this guys. Both forms are legitimate, and the laity need to be educated about the rules that need to be followed in a charitable and rational way. This “we will out number you” and “we will stop at nothing to get it (TLM)” is not the unity that is called for in the church, and in my own humble opinion not at all helpful to crisis of division in the church.
We have several vocations to the priesthood at my parish every year. And its not a TLM. Why? Because the faith is properly taught, boys are actively encouraged to serve at the alter, we regularly pray for vocations, and the Mass is done propery. We also have many large families at our parish. The problem isn’t the NO, it’s the lack of catechisis that took place after Vatican II.
I can truly see where people who loved the TLM felt cheated when the radicals came in and turned everything on it’s ear. But now were have several generations that have never known the TLM, and to take the NO away from them would probabaly invoke the same feelings from many who have worshipped in this way. I fully believe indults should be granted to those who want the TLM. I’ll restate again - I don’t think the NO is the problem, it’s the lack of education of the laity. Education will prevent a few radicals from getting in there and “running the show”.
Peace.
The church I attend has the NO the way it was supposed to be and it is awesome. It feels like heaven on earth. If the rules are followed the NO can be a beautiful experience, the problem is the *rules aren’t followed. *If the Mass is good enough for the pope, it’s good enough for me.
Divide and conquer, that’s the devil’s favorite mode of operation. We shouldn’t be doing this guys. Both forms are legitimate, and the laity need to be educated about the rules that need to be followed in a charitable and rational way. This “we will out number you” and “we will stop at nothing to get it (TLM)” is not the unity that is called for in the church, and in my own humble opinion not at all helpful to crisis of division in the church.
We have several vocations to the priesthood at my parish every year. And its not a TLM. Why? Because the faith is properly taught, boys are actively encouraged to serve at the alter, we regularly pray for vocations, and the Mass is done propery. We also have many large families at our parish. The problem isn’t the NO, it’s the lack of catechisis that took place after Vatican II.
I can truly see where people who loved the TLM felt cheated when the radicals came in and turned everything on it’s ear. But now were have several generations that have never known the TLM, and to take the NO away from them would probabaly invoke the same feelings from many who have worshipped in this way. I fully believe indults should be granted to those who want the TLM. I’ll restate again - I don’t think the NO is the problem, it’s the lack of education of the laity. Education will prevent a few radicals from getting in there and “running the show”.
Peace.
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Franciscum
Guest
Kettle/pot/black.
C
CatholicCrusade
Guest
::comes in without reading through the thread::
The Traditional Latin Mass is to last “in perpetuity” (Quo Primum). No Priest needs an indult to say the Mass of All Times
::walks out quietly::
The Traditional Latin Mass is to last “in perpetuity” (Quo Primum). No Priest needs an indult to say the Mass of All Times
::walks out quietly::
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
So the Council was pastoral? Not ecumenical?
O
OrthoCath
Guest
John XXIII said it was a “Pastoral Council” and Paul VI repeated it. Pope John Paul I died and didn’t say much. Pope John Paul II has been the only real Pope to implement the Council.
So, 2 out 3 Popes agree it was a “Pastoral Council.” Also, 2 out of 3 Doctors Who Discuss Nutrition with the Majority of Their Patients Recommend Yogurt with Live Active Cultures.
So, 2 out 3 Popes agree it was a “Pastoral Council.” Also, 2 out of 3 Doctors Who Discuss Nutrition with the Majority of Their Patients Recommend Yogurt with Live Active Cultures.
P
Podo2004
Guest
Thank You very Much
Podo
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