Police: Approximately 20 dead inside Florida nightclub after mass shooting

[pepipop]

catholicbishops.ie/2016/06/14/statement-of-archbishop-diarmuid-martin-on-orlando-shootings/

**Statement of Archbishop Diarmuid Martin on Orlando shootings
14. JUN, 2016
**
*“People all around the world are shocked with the news of the terrible loss of life at the Pulse Nightclub in Orlando.

I have asked that in the Prayers of the Faithful at all Masses in the Archdiocese of Dublin on the coming weekend that those who died or who remain injured and all those who mourn and grieve be remembered. Books of condolence are open at the Pro-Cathedral in Dublin for those who wish to express their grief and outrage.

People all over the world are shocked. How do we explain that our modern society can somehow be held to ransom in successive gun attacks by individuals or small groups filed with hatred? It could happen again and it could happen anywhere. This time, the victims were members of the LGBT community; in other cases the victims were from the media or simply innocent by standers. Fingers and blame are unfoundedly often hastily pointed at the entire honest Islamic community.

Any culture which gives notoriety to violence only encourages the deranged or the simply evil to attempt to repeat such actions. As followers of Jesus Christ, Christians should work more and more to purify ourselves from all prejudice, to be in the forefront in dialogue and reconciliation and have the resolution to courageously confront those who anywhere foster violence.”*

 

[DeniseNY]

On 9/11, the Orlando shooter’s classmates mourned. Some say he celebrated.

washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/06/13/on-911-omar-mateens-classmates-mourned-some-say-he-celebrated/?utm_term=.9bfcdd29535e

 

[GaryTaylor]

unfoundedly often hastily pointed at the entire honest Islamic community.

Any culture which gives notoriety to violence

I think you have to become involved with the honest Islamic community to address the issue within their religion which has avenues to radicalization. Everyone agrees including Obama we have to counter extremism. The question is how to combat this fundamentalism without addressing the ideology with the “honest muslim community”. Thats what Obama wants to do and it simply can’t work.

This isn’t a gun issue. Nor is it a matter of Islamophobia. In fact all that is fear mongering and distracting from the issue.

 

[Seamus_L]

I’ve listened to statements and comments on the Orlando Massacre from alot of people in the public eye, and so far the only one who really sounds sensible is Donald Trump.

 

[estesbob]

It apoears. He did not randomly picked this bar- he had been to it many times . One of the survivors said he had talked to the shooter many times via a homosexual dating app

 

[_Abyssinia]

There are claims that Omar Mateen may have been or was homosexual.

Orlando shooter Mateen’s ex-wife says he might have been gay

m.thehindu.com/news/international/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-might-have-been-gay-ex-wife/article8728201.ece

Orlando shooter Omar Mateen 'was a regular at Pulse nightclub

Customers had seen killer there before and several report getting messages from him on gay dating apps

Jim Van Horn, 71, told the Associated Press Mateen was a “regular” at the Pulse nightclub where the murders took place.
“He was trying to pick up people. Men,” he said. “He was a homosexual and he was trying to pick up men. He would walk up to them and then he would maybe put his arm round them or something … That’s what people do at gay bars. That’s what we do.”

theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/14/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-a-regular-at-nightclub

 

[zerocrossing]

There are claims that Omar Mateen may have been or was homosexual.

Orlando shooter Mateen’s ex-wife says he might have been gay

m.thehindu.com/news/international/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-might-have-been-gay-ex-wife/article8728201.ece

Orlando shooter Omar Mateen 'was a regular at Pulse nightclub

theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/14/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-a-regular-at-nightclub

According to one witness at the club, he was a regular at the club trying to pick up men. He also used gay apps to try to pick up men.

yahoo.com/news/orlando-mourns-possible-motives-emerge-club-gunman-071751818.html

This really muddies the motive.

It’s starting to sound like he might have been a man with same-sex attraction who used Islam as an excuse to shoot up a bar where men had rejected him. Or perhaps he was conflicted between his religion and his sexual desires and thought that he could find “redemption”/“be accepted by Allah” if he killed men who frequented the same gay bar he frequented. Of course, there’s also the possibility that he was trolling the bar on a regular basis for three years and using gay apps in order to get insight into a community he wished to harm in a jihadist attack, but it’s only in that last scenario that he would be more of your “typical” Islamic radical.

The latter scenario, though, would require a lot of disciplined planning, and his own wife thought he was both gay and mentally ill. So it’s looking likely that his motive was much more complex than a straightforward West-hating jihadist terrorist attack. “ISIS-supporting terrorist” is clearly how he wished to be remembered, given his pledge to ISIS, but it does not appear to be the whole story.

None of that is a mitigating factor of course. But the following is not an uncommon scenario… self-hating man with same-sex attraction commits extreme violence against other men with same-sex attraction in order to convince himself he’s not really like them. It happened in the Dallas area, in fact, when I was living there in the 1980s (and the killer was not Muslim).

 

[Crossbones]

Sorry this is nothing but gibberish. Again your statement…

Actually, it is quite clear, I asked you to submit a self-contained question. That’s what you don’t do in the rest of this post.

Letting them in wouldn’t have prevented the tragedy either its an absurd meaningless comment.

This is another example where lack of punctuation makes it difficult to follow your argument. There really should be something between tragedy and either, but I not sure what. Or it could be that the order of what you said is wrong. I can’t tell. I recommend reading that statement aloud and realizing that it doesn’t make sense.

The point…

The two are not mutually exclusive to anything a american born muslim killer and a radical muslim killer entering the US] . So explain how is that relevant to anything including guns. radical islamists, or vetting migrants.

I don’t know if you realize this, but that statement also doesn’t make sense.

Further …

if the laws are going to change as a result of this tragedy, such as a new assault weapons ban, then they should be focused on things that would prevent this and other similar tragedies.

However, why would we react in fear and political expediency ramming through law in the name of public safety. Again, I am struggling to follow you.

We had a law banning assault weapons before. We could have one again in the wake of the many mass shootings that have occurred.

 

[pnewton]

This really muddies the motive.

It’s starting to sound like he might have been a man with same-sex attraction who used Islam as an excuse to shoot up a bar where men had rejected him.

Assuming there is any truth to this conjecture. So far, those who have brought this up would have good motivation to lie about it.

Time will tell.

 

[_Abyssinia]

We had a law banning assault weapons before. We could have one again in the wake of the many mass shootings that have occurred.

I truncated your post. Omar Mateen use a semi-automatic weapon, didn’t he?

 

[Crossbones]

I truncated your post. Omar Mateen use a semi-automatic weapon, didn’t he?

I have suggested tweaking the definition of assault weapons used in the previous ban. The previous ban did include the weapon he used though.

 

[gnjsdad]

According to one witness at the club, he was a regular at the club trying to pick up men. He also used gay apps to try to pick up men.

yahoo.com/news/orlando-mourns-possible-motives-emerge-club-gunman-071751818.html

This really muddies the motive.

It’s starting to sound like he might have been a man with same-sex attraction who used Islam as an excuse to shoot up a bar where men had rejected him. Or perhaps he was conflicted between his religion and his sexual desires and thought that he could find “redemption”/be accepted by “Allah” if he killed men who frequented the same gay bar he frequented. Of course, there’s also the possibility that he was trolling the bar on a regular basis for three years and using gay apps in order to get insight into a community he wished to harm, but it’s only in that last scenario that he would be more of your “typical” Islamic radical.

The latter scenario, though, would require a lot of disciplined planning, and his own wife thought he was both gay and mentally ill. So it’s looking likely that his motive was much more complex than a straightforward West-hating jihadist terrorist attack. “ISIS-supporting terrorist” is clearly how he wished to be remembered, given his pledge to ISIS, but it does not appear to be the whole story.

None of that is a mitigating factor of course. But the following is not an uncommon scenario… self-hating man with same-sex attraction commits extreme violence against other men with same-sex attraction in order to convince himself he’s not really like them. It happened in the Dallas area, in fact, when I was living there in the 1980s (and the killer was not Muslim).

It also was a factor in the Germanwings Lufthansa plane crash. The co-pilot was struggling with SSA and deliberately crashed the plane. It also was a factor in the incident in Virginia when the man struggling with SSA shot the young female reporter and cameraman live on the air.

Let’s face it. The homosexual today is this nation’s ideal citizen. This is why both wings of the oligarchy that rules this country today are trying to steer the story into their pet narratives; the Democrats are fixated on guns; the Republicans on “Islamic terrorism”. Both have a vested interest in steering the story away from any inconvenient truths about the psychological sequelae of SSA.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I have suggested tweaking the definition of assault weapons used in the previous ban. The previous ban did include the weapon he used though.

According to this, “He used at least two guns, a Sig Sauer AR-15-style assault rifle and a Glock handgun.” - nytimes.com/interactive/2015/10/03/us/how-mass-shooters-got-their-guns.html

Handguns are not assault weapons though, are they? According to this, most mass shooting have been done with semi automatic handguns: miamiherald.com/news/state/florida/article83462157.html

If you have a “tweaking” to the assault weapons ban and ban then presumably the AR-15, is that correct, if semi automatic handguns are not classified as assault weapons, the type of weapon that has been used in most mass shootings, they won’t be banned and also, if there was a “tweaking” to the assault weapons ban, what would happen to the millions of weapons already in circulation? I think I’ve already heard what would happen regarding a weapon ban but I’d like to see your response.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Actually, it is quite clear, I asked you to submit a self-contained question. That’s what you don’t do in the rest of this post.

This is another example where lack of punctuation makes it difficult to follow your argument. There really should be something between tragedy and either, but I not sure what. Or it could be that the order of what you said is wrong. I can’t tell. I recommend reading that statement aloud and realizing that it doesn’t make sense.

I don’t know if you realize this, but that statement also doesn’t make sense.

We had a law banning assault weapons before. We could have one again in the wake of the many mass shootings that have occurred.

All the above is more gibberish about nothing but a personal attack. Its against the rules which you should read. Your side bar dialogue and odd conversation has no place here. The OP is the topic not me or what you think about various aspects of me.

You have no point but a failed vague chatter about gun laws. Its a dead Democrat point and fear mongering as I said and you have no response.

This here…

We had a law banning assault weapons before. We could have one again in the wake of the many mass shootings that have occurred

We could also address the real issue which isn’t guns and is only democrat fear mongering. It probably spurred more gun sales.

 

[zerocrossing]

Assuming there is any truth to this conjecture. So far, those who have brought this up would have good motivation to lie about it.

Time will tell.

Why would homosexual men who frequented the club have motive to lie about it? If anything they would have motive to present him as a “bigoted” outsider, motivated by straightforward hatred of gays. The narrative they are presenting though is more complex - that he was actually one of them.

 

[zerocrossing]

It also was a factor in the Germanwings Lufthansa plane crash. The co-pilot was struggling with SSA and deliberately crashed the plane. It also was a factor in the incident in Virginia when the man struggling with SSA shot the young female reporter and cameraman live on the air.

Let’s face it. The homosexual today is this nation’s ideal citizen. This is why both wings of the oligarchy that rules this country today are trying to steer the story into their pet narratives; the Democrats are fixated on guns; the Republicans on “Islamic terrorism”. Both have a vested interest in steering the story away from any inconvenient truths about the psychological sequelae of SSA.

Agree that it’s much easier to sweep inconvenient truths under the rug rather than confront the possibility that there’s more to this than just guns or Islam.

 

[gilliam]

Assuming there is any truth to this conjecture. So far, those who have brought this up would have good motivation to lie about it.

Time will tell.

Employees of the club also have stated he frequented the club. It doesn’t look like it is misdirection.

 

[gilliam]

None of that is a mitigating factor of course. But the following is not an uncommon scenario… self-hating man with same-sex attraction commits extreme violence against other men with same-sex attraction in order to convince himself he’s not really like them. It happened in the Dallas area, in fact, when I was living there in the 1980s (and the killer was not Muslim).

It is pretty common; and may be the case here.

Looks like the FBI is looking into it:

Official: FBI investigating reports that Orlando gunman was a regular at club he attacked, used gay dating apps.
twitter.com/AP/status/742719975522246657

 

[Thorolfr]

It is pretty common; and may be the case here.

Looks like the FBI is looking into it:

Official: FBI investigating reports that Orlando gunman was a regular at club he attacked, used gay dating apps.
twitter.com/AP/status/742719975522246657

It’s not uncommon for the most virulently anti-gay people to be struggling with unwanted feelings of same-sex attraction themselves.

This is in today’s Guardian:

If analysts are already weighing up the implications of possible links with Isis, if presidential candidates are taking it as read that Mateen was part of a web of Islamist terror spreading across the globe, let me imagine a situation in which sex, not sectarianism, plays a part. Transgressive sexuality and conservative religion can be a toxic mix. If Mateen felt conflicted about his interest in gay men, it could have been because he believed his faith would condemn him for it. There’s no easy answer to this. “Ban religion,” say some atheists, but it’s not that simple. We must encourage the compassionate and disparage the dogmatists. Strive for conditions which promote kindness, rather than judgment.

When I interviewed him recently for another article, the distinguished psychologist Samuel Juni told me: “Running away and trying to get in touch are psychologically not contradictory … When you’re running, part of you is running from something that you would very much like to be in touch with but you can’t.” The annihilation on Sunday morning may have been Mateen’s final attempt to run away from the thing that obsessed him.

All of this poses a problem for the likes of Donald Trump, who told his Twitter followers, as the blood on the bathroom walls of Pulse was still drying, that he “appreciate[d] the congrats for being right on radical Islamic terrorism”.

If a heady combination of shame and sexuality were part of what drove Mateen’s decisions that morning, how is that to be policed? How can we, to borrow the language of counter-terrorism, “eradicate” the “scourge” of internalised homophobia? Of a feeling that one’s desires are dirty and humiliating? You can’t easily make a homeland secure against self-loathing.

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/14/omar-mateen-gay-men-terrorism-pulse-jackd-sexuality

 

[estesbob]

It’s not uncommon for the most virulently anti-gay people to be struggling with unwanted feelings of same-sex attraction themselves.

This is in today’s Guardian:

theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/14/omar-mateen-gay-men-terrorism-pulse-jackd-sexuality

The idea that this was actually an act of Homophobia rather than Islamic terrorism has pretty much been debunked by the latest revelations.