Pope finally launches crackdown on world's largest illicit Catholic shrine [Medjugorje] and suspends 'dubious' priest

[rpp]

I have not spoken of the apparitions at all. I was talking about what the people are experiencing in Medjugoria…and I have not mentioned the apparitions.
I have, however, said at least 2 times that the Church cannot take a stand until after the apparitions have concluded and the investigations are proven authentic or not.
I have talked about how people going to experience disneyland are going for all of the wrong reasons. And true conversions to the Most Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary due to pilgrimages to Medjugoria are a proven fact. One does not have to believe in the apparitions to experience this or believe it.

There is an impramataur on Medjugoria…which means it will be proven true or false by its fruits. I have seen and heard of only wonderful fruits coming from Medjugoria.

“Impramatuer” refers to a book, not a claimed vision.

As for the Church having to wait until these “visions” cease before they can rule is, aside from being incorrect, is frankly preposterous. There have been numerous “visions” and “visionaries” whose claims have been determined by their bishop not to be of divine origin. Your insistence on this clearly indicates that you have been exposed to a good deal of propaganda about these alleged visions as Medjugorje. They say this because that is the only way these frauds can convince you to ignore the clear and repeated condemnations of their fraudulent “visions”.

If you are going to insist this or that about canon law, then be prepared to cite canon law.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I would like to comment on a couple posts. First to JesusNCherie I can’t believe you never heard of fasting and rosary or confession or were encouraged to participate in them while attending Mass every Sunday. This strains credulity.

I grew up in southern Louisiana. I cannot help it if you do not believe that the priests in the parishes I attended never talked on the pulpit about fasting, the rosary or Confession. However, I did hear that everyone was good. I did hear many things about being all inclusive. My sister was told by the priest of our home parish that what went on in the privacy of her bedroom was her own business…not the Church’s. I was led to believe by a couple of youth ministers that if I loved the guy I was dating, sex was alright. I was encouraged to masturbate. I was never spoken to about going to confession, or praying the rosary. And it was 1987 before I ever heard of fasting voluntarily…and it was because I was speaking to someone about Medjugoria. And as I got older I talked with many other people from many different areas. Most of us had the above experiences in common. People talking about Medjugoria was what brought people back to the going to daily Mass, praying the Rosary, fasting, confession…and especially Eucharistic Adoration.

How about the other members of your parish ? If you went back and talked to them now would they all say the same as you? That would make it the strangest Catholic Parish in the world. This is probably why some people go to Medj. For whatever reason they did not connect with their faith through the proper channels and want some new "exciting " way to do it. This is not where true spirituality lies.

What may have started off with excitement and emotion (which are legitimate parts of falling in love) have in millions of people grown into strong faith built on solid foundations. It is wrong for you to judge what you are ignorant of.

Also , knowing that Fatima and Lourdes are approved as you say, why on earth would you not chose to make a pilgramage there than to a place high in controversy unapproved by the Church?

***I did not put any effort into going to Medjugoria…Mary wanted me there. I did not pay a penny toward it. And it changed my life.
It also must be said that I did not go to Medjugoria seeking anything other than to grow in my love for Jesus and Mary. I did not go in hopes of seeing anything miraculous. The people who went on the pilgrimage with me…about 50 people from the New Orleans and southern Mississippi area…were of the same mind. We went to deepen our faith. We didn’t need to see a miracle to believe. And we recieved what we both wanted and needed.

And just for the record…I have read quite a number of things about and from Medjugoria. I have never read or heard anything from anyone who is trying to convince people to believe that the Blessed Mother Mary is appearing. Everything points to Jesus. I heard the visionaries speak. They didn’t speak about themselves at all unless asked direct questions by the audience about themselves. They spoke only of what Mary wants us to do…go to Mass, confession, pray the Rosary…Eucharistic Adoration. Fall in love with Jesus.

---

In regard to Padre Pio, thosands of people were helped by GOD not by Padre Pio and if going to confession to him had been banned then GOD would have chosen another channel and Padre Pio would probably obeyed the Church and stopped hearing confessions. There have been distinct obedience problems with Medj. seerers and promotors.

I also watched that video of one of the seers allegedly having a vision (Jan 2009) Never saw anything so fake in all my life. So fake it is laughable.

What makes you an expert on the subject of what a visionary looks like during an apparition?

Please, be obedient to the Church, exercise caution in very gray areas like this. Pray to God daily without fan fare. You never have to leave home to be with God.

***It is important to pray to God at all times. I do not need to be in a drab, dark place in order to pray. I can pray in the midst of thousands of people praising Him…and the emotion I feel are gifts from Him. Do not put limitations on the Power of God and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I do not need the emotional gifts in order to love Him and pray. But I certainly do not need to reject Him at those times He gifts me with the emotion.***

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

“Impramatuer” refers to a book, not a claimed vision.

As for the Church having to wait until these “visions” cease before they can rule is, aside from being incorrect, is frankly preposterous. There have been numerous “visions” and “visionaries” whose claims have been determined by their bishop not to be of divine origin. Your insistence on this clearly indicates that you have been exposed to a good deal of propaganda about these alleged visions as Medjugorje. They say this because that is the only way these frauds can convince you to ignore the clear and repeated condemnations of their fraudulent “visions”.

If you are going to insist this or that about canon law, then be prepared to cite canon law.

I assume you have not read all of my articles. I already corrected the word impramatur. And they cannot conclude investigations on whether prophesies or messages are true or not until all or none come to pass. It would be silly to assume that if the messages have not all been given, one could not judge wether or not they are true or false. This is the case in Medjugoria.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

In the last half of the article it says that the Pope, as Cardinal R., banned all pilgrimages to the illicit shrine…but that his ban has been “widely ignored.” The article also comments about three investigations which found the apparitions to be unsustainable–without evidence.

There is no evidence, there cannot be any until the messages are proven true or false…which cannot happen as long as they are still going on.

 

[MariaTheresa]

To JesusandCherie

I stand by what I wrote. Your arguments are weak. You need to think about why this is so important to you when again you do not have to leave your own home to be just as close to God.
If the Church has banned pilgrimigases to the site then to go is to move away from Jesus because you are not in obedience.

 

[Eucharisted]

On Shrines

Directory of Popular Piety and the Liturgy

By the way, aren’t piligrimages banned from going to Medjugorje? Because this website seems to think otherwise

 

[K-McD]

***It is important to pray to God at all times. I do not need to be in a drab, dark place in order to pray. I can pray in the midst of thousands of people praising Him…and the emotion I feel are gifts from Him. Do not put limitations on the Power of God and the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I do not need the emotional gifts in order to love Him and pray. But I certainly do not need to reject Him at those times He gifts me with the emotion.***

Bravo! Spoken like a true “Medg. Head” (Your whole post and not just this little bit.) In my own experiences, I get many objection to Medg. on the grounds that they heard someone say something, or read something on the Internet, or “I just can’t imagine Mary doing something like that, or the seers aren’t authentic because seers don’t act like that.” If you have that much knowledge of the subject and can make judgments based on your own experiences or on what you’ve read, great! But most of you “skeptics” fail to look into the “fruits,” authentic conversions.

In my experiences, my family to be exact, there were over ten conversions, with one being a priest, directly stemming from Medg. These people I knew before and after their conversions. This happened back in the 90’s and they are strong Catholic to this day. My brother went with two of his fraternity brothers to Medg. and all three of them eventually became priests. I remember him saying to me, he couldn’t answer the Cardinal’s question when asked what inspired three from the same house to seek priesthood. The Cardinal was dead set against Medg.

When I first heard about Medg. it was from a video about the place and happenings. My first response was a overwhelming desire to go to confession. It is without a doubt the origins of my support for CA stem from Medg.

So, those of you who say Medg. is only an “angle of light”, Satan misleading the faithful, then I say this, he isn’t very bright. Leading the faithful away from God by directing them in the heart of the Church. That ought to work. Something like, “The closer we are to danger, the farther we are to harm.”

Its been a long time since I followed the “controversy”. To me and a lot of others, there isn’t any controversy. And no one can tell me my conversion isn’t real because it came from Medg. Like my signature says below, you can’t get good fruit from a bad tree. This wasn’t about Medg. but it still applies.

 

[Corki]

On Shrines

Directory of Popular Piety and the Liturgy

By the way, aren’t piligrimages banned from going to Medjugorje? Because this website seems to think otherwise

Parishes and dioceses are banned from organizing pilgrimages to Medjugorge. Individuals aren’t banned from going there. I don’t think it would be prudent, and considering some of the disobedience surrounding the seers, could be seen as material cooperation. But individuals and these tour companies that have popped up aren’t strictly forbidden.

 

[rpp]

I assume you have not read all of my articles. I already corrected the word impramatur. And they cannot conclude investigations on whether prophesies or messages are true or not until all or none come to pass. It would be silly to assume that if the messages have not all been given, one could not judge wether or not they are true or false. This is the case in Medjugoria.

Referring to the text in bold, please provide some citations that support this. Sources such as Canon law would be appropriate.

However, you will not be able to do this. Why? Because it is intellectually and spiritually foolish to allow frauds, like those in Medjugorge from harming the faithful and thus the church does not wait in these matters. I myself have repeatedly read of bishops condemning visions and visionaries who still claim to receive ongoing visions. You assertion on this point is completely incorrect. Unless and until you can prove, and provide citations and links, that your assertion is correct, please cease making it.

Medjugorge has been determined to be false by it’s own bishop, who is the one ultimately responsible for it. Pilgramages have been banned. Those who support the Medjugorge visions do so because they have either been duped or are part of the fraud.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

To JesusandCherie

I stand by what I wrote. Your arguments are weak. You need to think about why this is so important to you when again you do not have to leave your own home to be just as close to God.
If the Church has banned pilgrimigases to the site then to go is to move away from Jesus because you are not in obedience.

I, too, stand by what I wrote. My arguments are strong and just. I do indeed have to leave my home to go to Church in order to recieve the Sacraments and go to Perpetual Adoration.
And the Church has not banned pilgrimages. I am in TOTAL obedience to the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Aramis]

If one goes there as pilgrimage, one ignores the territorial bishop of the place, whom rome has appointed. That is a moral bad.

One also, in going, causes the locals to perpetuate it, and thus causes them to sin by direct disobedience to their own bishop. This is a major sin.

Better to be thrown overboard with an anchor about one than to lead the faithful astray.

 

[thereseozi]

2 Corinthians 11:14 
And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

The first book I read which opened my eyes regarding discernment of spirits was:

Challenging Counterfeit: A Former Medium Exposes Spiritualism
amazon.com/Challenging-Counterfeit-Former-Exposes-Spiritualism/dp/0912106662/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235003731&sr=8-1

[unitypublishing.com/answers.html](http://www.unitypublishing.com/answers.html)

From the book, A Still Small Voice - A Practical Guide On Reported Revelations by Fr. Benedict Groeschel, page 45:

“The Franciscan nun Magdalena of the Cross was three times abbess of her monastery at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Complete with self-inflicted stigmata and the ability to levitate above the earth, with ecstasies and a gift of prophecy, she even convinced others that she lived without food. She enjoyed a reputation for extraordinary holiness for several decades. Bishops, clergy, great nobles, and even inquisitors flocked to her. She succeeded in deluding a large number of Spanish theologians who prided themselves on not being easily taken in. However, in danger of death, she confessed that the whole thing was a fabrication and that in fact she inflicted the stigmata on herself. By her own admission she had sold her soul to Satan in return for all of these deceptive gifts, and she actually had to be subjected to exorcism. The fantastic career of this woman alone ought to be a sufficient warning to the gullible.”

**Private Revelations and Discernment of Spirits**
[ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryd8.htm](http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryd8.htm)
(d)We need to watch out for the work of satan--he may really promote good things for a while, provided that in the long run he gains. The revelations of Necedah, Wi. seemed to have good fruits, yet were false. Rosaries were said to change to gold. Similarly for Bayside. But disobedience showed them false. St. Margaret Mary was told by Our Lord: (Autobiography, # 57):"Listen, My Daughter, and do not lightly believe and trust every spirit, for satan is angry and will try to deceive you. So do nothing without the approval of those who guide you. Being thus under the authority of obedience, his efforts against you will be in vain, for he has no power over the obedient."
(Please read entire article, above is only an excerpt.)

The Graces of Interior Prayer by Poulan
amazon.com/Graces-Interior-Prayer-Aug-Poulan/dp/0548281432/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234841278&sr=8-1

 

[MariaTheresa]

JesusandCherie

You misunderstand what I said-You do not need to leave “home” meaning go on pilgrimages or places with fan fare to be just as close to God. Your local Catholic Parish has all that you
need ( mass, sacraments etc) people can be devout and still be lead astray for all kinds of reasons including emotional or psychological on their part. If the Church has banned pilgrmages by any official Church organization , I think that is a clue to what people should be doing. Look up what the Pope has said and follow it. This will keep your soul out of danger.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

If one goes there as pilgrimage, one ignores the territorial bishop of the place, whom rome has appointed. That is a moral bad.

One also, in going, causes the locals to perpetuate it, and thus causes them to sin by direct disobedience to their own bishop. This is a major sin.

Better to be thrown overboard with an anchor about one than to lead the faithful astray.

This is no longer under the authority of the local bishop. The authority of this is Rome. Read the above threads.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

JesusandCherie

You misunderstand what I said-You do not need to leave “home” meaning go on pilgrimages or places with fan fare to be just as close to God. Your local Catholic Parish has all that you
need ( mass, sacraments etc) people can be devout and still be lead astray for all kinds of reasons including emotional or psychological on their part. If the Church has banned pilgrmages by any official Church organization , I think that is a clue to what people should be doing. Look up what the Pope has said and follow it. This will keep your soul out of danger.

Retreats and pilgrimages have always been the way of the Church. The Church has not banned pilgrimages to Medjugoria…only said that they cannot be parish led. And that is correct. They will neither approve or disprove what is going on. Therefore the parishes cannot lead to it.
And once again, I stress that love begins with emotion. People have to start somewhere…and usually they begin with emotion. Like people who have left the Church will come back because of the emotion involved when a loved one dies. This person feels the need to reconnect with the Savior. You make it sound as if emotions are a bad thing, when in truth, fear is an emotion which can lead one out of great sin for fear of going to hell.

I have talked with many people. No one on the trip that I was on, nor anyone that I have spoken with have been on an emotional high during their pilgrimage to Medjugoria. One who goes on this trip is TIRED after all of the travel and walking. Medjugoria isn’t a place of a spiritual high. It was a place of quiet and retreat. And there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[redrosetea]

Cherie I hope it turns out to be true…If it isn’t so many will be hurt and this could do great harm to the church

You need to understand that people are skeptical because of all the scandals surrounding the people connected with promoting this event

It doesn’t make it untrue but it does make it unpalatable for many

Just accept that some of us are a hard sell, but it doesn’t mean that we love Our Lady any less than you

 

[mnealon1]

I agree with JesusNCherie. The Vatican does not ban individual Pilgrimages only those organized by Priests, but Priests can go as Spiritual directors. If you ever go there you will see five or six Priests con-celebrating Mass in every language, nearlly every hour.
I received a re-conversion in Medjugorje and many many more like me. I got my spriitual life back in a wonderful way. I am closer to Jesus and Our Lady than I ever was before.
If you tease this out in a rational way, Satan could not be involved, as conversations are the last thing he wants.
I went to Medjugorje on a very humble budget, think of the thousands of dollars and Euro people spend to go lie in the sun, and people do not worry about who benifits financially from that.
For myself I shall be forever thanking Our Lady for opening my heart and soul to Her Son Jesus and the many graces received.
Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us.

 

[Layman]

Just because good comes out of it doesn’t mean it’s good in itself e.g. protestantism, masonic hospitals, Bayside etc.

 

[Soutane]

Why is Medjugore even being discussed here?However obliquely?I thought forum rules prohibited discussion of unapproved apparitions?i

 

[Eucharisted]

Forum Rules

1. Do not post material from unapproved private revelations.