Pope Francis Outlines 8-Point Plan for ‘All-Out Battle’ Against Sexual Abuse

[Hoosier-Daddy]

If one has first hand knowledge absolutely!

 

[TMC]

they are extending all the protection they can to children worldwide

With respect, they are not. They should start with the children entrusted to their care, whom they are failing.

We are the Church… not only the hierarchy. We have to work together.

Yes, the laity is the Church, and the laity needs to take responsibility, and take action. The problem is that the hierarchy has instituted a system that gives all the control to itself. The laity needs to demand that change. If it does not, I fear these problems cannot be properly addressed.

 

[graciew]

The problem is that the hierarchy has instituted a system that gives all the control to itself.

Well… here is where there may be all sort of different situations. Let us say that in a cohesive highly participating diocese or parishes, we are kind of all there for all all the time, communication flows continuously. And help and support with priests, or the bishop is friendly and highly appreciated. It flows. Yes, there is a hierarchy but the relationship between lay people, and hierarchy is close and open.
Somebody must have the last word, yes, there is the priest and the bishop and so on, but really it is us who bring up the issues we are in contact with to them and viceversa. Not stagnant compartimentos but something that flows bottom up also…Participating…
Less problems arise that all of us are not aware of…because we are there if you know what I mean
But there is such a variety of cases and situations all over the world…think that even a parish in a war zone is destinantary and participant in this sort of problem solving gathering.
Priest and bishops dealing with the most extreme poverty zones to the most vibrant and participative and active.
It takes time to open our eyes, been there. So many times…when a few blocks away reality was like light years diffferent.
The environment permeates into the Church and viceversa. Look at it as interaction.
I respect your perspective, no worries. We are trying to build not destroy…
But all in all , I see that we are all hurting, lay, priests, bishops who have given their best and in good faith, and that may be pouring into this gathering their issues and problems and solutions that may be really very pertinent in some areas and perhaps not so much in others. But we all belong and should have our little spots to try and correct it.
So perhaps, what you are saying it really pertinent as from your perspective and perhaps it doesn t exactly apply in my little surroundings but yes, it is your worries in good faith so there you have a spot to bring it up.
This, I think, it what is being done in good faith.
And about your first quote( iI still can t quote partially,sorry…) the Church as Mother has every child entrusted to her care…
It isn t like only the catholic children in our area are our concern… every child is…no strings attached… we are here for every child in our diocese, as from the parish area on… we embrace their needs all and joys and sorrows. As any mother does, and each child worries us.
That is how I how I see it and live it. But at the end of the day, I am just one more, doing just like everyone else what we can to add.
Peace.

 

[TMC]

I have to disagree. The laity are sometimes given an opportunity to participate in different ways, true, but the laity has no actual control or authority in any parish or diocese that I am aware of. There is no reason that the hierarchy of the Church needs to have some complete control, in such secrecy.

As to the Church’s responsibility to all children, I don’t disagree. But the Church’s authority to preach on the care of children by others is seriously damaged by its utter failure to care for its own children. Let’s start with the log in our own eye, for a change.

 

[AlbMagno]

By its own children are you refering to seminarians?

 

[graciew]

But the Church’s authority to preach on the care of children by others is seriously damaged by its utter failure to care for its own children.

It hasn’t been preaching…it has been giving and til it hurt…
And as you say…” that I am aware of” is that : what we are aware of. Which is very limited and to some point I personally thank God…because what is related to children hurts as hell and it is very painful to see and deal with personally but well, if one has one has to…poor little ones…and God knows there is an underworld that exceeds our wildest imagination about evil

 

[TMC]

By its own children are you refering to seminarians?

Yes, and also the many other children that have been abused by clerics.

 

[TMC]

It hasn’t been preaching…it has been giving and til it hurt…
And as you say…” that I am aware of” is that : what we are aware of. Which is very limited and to some point I personally thank God…because what is related to children hurts as hell and it is very painful to see and deal with and God knows there is an underworld that exceeds our wildest imagination about evil

I’m not sure what you mean by this. My understanding is that the Church’s current laws and regulations do not allow for lay control of the Church in any meaningful way. No lay control of spending, finances, personnel decisions. When I say “that I am aware of,” I mean that I am not aware of any parish or dioceses that has an exception to those general rules.

I also am not sure about “giving until it hurt.” Are you referring to the billions spent on settlements/hush money payments? That is exactly the kind of thing that requires more transparency, and more lay control, IMO.

 

[graciew]

I’m not sure what you mean by this. My understanding is that the Church’s current laws and regulations do not allow for lay control of the Church in any meaningful way. No lay control of spending, finances, personnel decisions. When I say “that I am aware of,” I mean that I am not aware of any parish or dioceses that has an exception to those general rules.

It is exactly the opposite… in so far as we participate…If you think of it, it is the laity in parishes that help out running it in every area… The priest has the last word and as a good administrator as well keeps an eye on everything but delegates what may be be delegated responsibly,but it isn’t like he does every single accounting or whatever stuff in a parish.How could he ?? Not even Superman in a thriving parish…
The best you can do, and if you were my sis or brother, is ask the priest, or a parish council member how they handle transparency, and the running of your parish. And if you have time …join in…and share your talent which I am sure you have for what is needed.If you are not already doing so, maybe you are
It is the best way to find out through your direct parish. And also when socializing with nearby parish members they may give ideas of how to improve yours. Or even optimize resources ,human and all.

I am not speaking about “ Rome” or the “ Vatican “ or somewhere far and nebulous.
Because big issues started small and in concrete parishes so that is my concern , where one can actually do something . Hopefully to prevent and improve. And in the worst of cases, to denounce and correct it with the pertinent people and authorities.
So by giving I mean more of the concrete personal giving of yourself , as you can.

 

[AlbMagno]

Well, in many parishes (including mine) the economic matters are attended by a group of lay members (supervised by the pastor, after all he lives in the parish). There are also lay administrative workers in the bishopric of many diocesis.

The Vatican is a special case because you have the historical Roman Curia, and normally the popes want to concentrate the more experienced and efficient priest in the world there, somewhat limiting a bit the lay hierarchy.

 

[graciew]

Thanks!You are completing the picture for TMC…

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

I suspect they grasp it, but evil is so far rooted that to acknowledge it would be to expose serious issues all the way up to the Vatican. The Curia has been a mess for years. There is an uncomfortability is being strident about things when secretly you yourself are guilty.

This entire things seems to emphasize how to react more so than how to prevent.

What does the Catholic Church need to do to route out problems before they occur?

Any mention of cleaning up seminaries? Dissuading those with homosexual tendencies from considering the priesthood? Anything specific?

Pretty words.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

I think concrete action would result in a theology (which I agree with) that the Church seems to be moving away from. A theology of bridges and dialogue, and moving away from rules and truths and traditions does not lend itself to the strictness that is needed .

 

[graciew]

Hoosier, concrete is as fast as your eyes and legs can move ( and if I am not mistaken you were an athlete or martial arts or something like that!)
We are living here and now, and our response, awareness and reaction, is not what it was decades ago.
See something? Report it. Know something ? Report it.
Do not leave to “ somebody” what is my responsiblity…
This was a first gathering, and this Pope is not particularly fond of “ vapor” that doesn t turn into concrete action( not implying previous Popes weren’ t either…)
Not saying anyone is perfect, we can all fail or have failed with what was in front of our noses.
This gathering has helped bring issues to the table, but it won t end here…if I know the fabric…
We’ ll see. And we will help it work out. We have to.

 

[Hoosier-Daddy]

Report it to the police. The Pope has some things he has done that worry me. His action and accusations of accusers in Chile, his asking the Usccb to take no action but then says in his 8 point plan that it’s the responsibility of conferences to take action. The absence of concrete actions being taken. The vagueness. His outspokenness against those who accuse. Etc. It is concerning. The Pope has no problem taking swift decisive action in other areas like Malta or other organizations.

 

[graciew]

I cannot speak for the Pope…
I agree he can be very swift .
He said he had been misininformed in Chile.

The worst with predators, abusers,and the corrupt is that are shrewd and manipulative…otherwise they would be preys, which hopefully , they have to become: of the police.
I will take a break from the thread…there isn’t t much more than one can say.
Have a good day, Hoosier!

 

[tafan2]

I find it disheartening that in the lead up to the summit, and apparently during the summit itself, the issue of abuse of seminarians and other adults was off limits to the discussion, yet it was ok to bring in sex trafficking and sex tourism as an issue that needs addressed. The summit was about clergy abuse. I do not believe that, to any significant extent, clergy are involved in sex tourism. Why one is okay to discuss, but the other is not? The issue of abuse of seminarians is obviously a world-wide problem.

 

[tafan2]

I agree he can be very swift .
He said he had been misininformed in Chile.

It took 4 months, between when he accused the accusers of calumny and when he claimed he was misinformed. That is not swift in my opinion. Its been since Oct since the Vatican said they were reviewing the files in the McCarrick case and when the Pope told members of the media he would respond after they did their jobs. We have seen nothing yet to answer the question on everyone’s mind: who knew and when and why did McCarrick keep getting promoted despite accusations against him.

 

[graciew]

It took 4 months, between when he accused the accusers of calumny and when he claimed he was misinformed. That is not swift in my opinion.

It wasn’t precisely an example of neither being swift nor assertive. In that I agreed with Hoosier…
As for Mc Carrick case, he has been defrocked. If you need more details, I do not have them nor personally need them , but I understand you may be concerned.

 

[TMC]

It is exactly the opposite… in so far as we participate…If you think of it, it is the laity in parishes that help out running it in every area… The priest has the last word and as a good administrator as well keeps an eye on everything but delegates what may be be delegated responsibly,but it isn’t like he does every single accounting or whatever stuff in a parish.How could he ?? Not even Superman in a thriving parish…
The best you can do, and if you were my sis or brother, is ask the priest, or a parish council member how they handle transparency, and the running of your parish. And if you have time …join in…and share your talent which I am sure you have for what is needed.If you are not already doing so, maybe you are
It is the best way to find out through your direct parish. And also when socializing with nearby parish members they may give ideas of how to improve yours. Or even optimize resources ,human and all.

I am not speaking about “ Rome” or the “ Vatican “ or somewhere far and nebulous.
Because big issues started small and in concrete parishes so that is my concern , where one can actually do something . Hopefully to prevent and improve. And in the worst of cases, to denounce and correct it with the pertinent people and authorities.
So by giving I mean more of the concrete personal giving of yourself , as you can

I agree that big issues start small and local. But your description of lay involvement does not reflect my experiences in the Church, and I don’t think it matches up with Church law - but maybe we are talking past each other.

As things stand now, lay participation is always advisory. I have been in many parishes, in only one that I can think of the laity had some limited visibility of finances, but that was unusual. But even that level of transparency can be withdrawn by the pastor or bishop at any time. The laity have no actual rights to participate in Church governance, as I understand it.

One concrete example - when it was revealed that the LA Diocese was paying over $600,000,000 in a settlement, how many members of the diocese dreamed that the diocese had that kind of money? It turns out that some diocese do have that kind of money. Lots of parishes and diocese have paid out multi-million dollar settlements, billions have been paid (and who knows what other payments we don’t know about).
Who is handling all that money? If we had true transparency, these things would have been known and could not have been hidden for decades (and centuries). Even if nothing else changed, transparency into finances would have revealed the cover up decades ago.

Another governance issue - how many diocese have had new priests arrive, only to learn a decade later that the priest was being moved because of abuse or other serious misconduct? If the laity had even basic transparency into personnel moves, the cover up could not have lasted as long as it did.

So I agree that local involvement and action is required, but a real change in the way the local Church governs itself if we are going to have a chance to fix these issues.